How much of High End Audio is Horn Speakers?

I have the Cornwall III’s going on 5+ years and they sound great to me. I have solid state gear with tube phono and couldn’t be happier. Be sure to play with toe-in makes huge difference with soundstage once you get it right. Congratulations and enjoy! 

I have my JBL 4350's in what I think is a good size dedicated room for them. 19 x 30 x 9.  Love them.  Never been without a horn speaker. I would like to have a comparison in my room between 4350's and Kplipsch AK6.       

After owning and modifying a few sets of Klipsch Heressy both series 1 and 2, I have noticed that many people will follow the majority of what is trending, meaning if horns are the new craze, they all will be into it and then the next idea pops up. That being the absolute need to start changing out xover parts without even testing things first.

(One more thing I don't understand is how replacing caps with low ESR caps could ever make them sound "better" unless you were the one who designed that crossover and know that the ESR was not figured into the design, if you need to add a small resistor to a circuit to get a better response, why not use a cap with that resistance already built into that cap? Saves on money and production costs).

In the case of Klipsch, there seems to be most buyers instantly feel a need to try to make them sound "better" by changing out every single thing except the one part that would greatly improve the speaker. So why buy a speaker that has such a long history of dissatisfaction? If you want to buy something just to replace everything in the cabinet (when the fact is the main problem is the cabinet itself) why not just start from scratch and DIY something that’s been proven time after time to sound better and cost a fraction of a brand name manuacturers set. First thing to understand is parts used in manufactured speakers are not going to use the best  available and you’ll find that most drivers used (unless they are made in house directly by them) are available to everyone and many manufacturers use the same exact drivers (Vifa, Peerless, Seas, etc..) regardless to who made the speakers but somehow those same drivers mixed an matched will produce vastly different sounds as proven by reviews.

If you look at what’s happening in trending designs you will notice that there are certain distinct types of drivers that have been used. As stated by another poster, those types all have different things that make them good or bad. What the real problem is the fact that a new item has a patent on it. It may be the only one made of that type but it’s not the best made of the type, meaning although it may work fine at first it might deteriorate or gravity might deform it over time. Examples of this are easy to find. Glues dry out or turn to gel, then the public views all of those types as bad based on the original versions. Petents run out then others will try their hand at making improved versions of what was once the "best" but now time has passed and that type has been replaced by the next best thing, that improved old version is not likely to get recognition unless it’s introduced as a new technology once again to grab buyers sttention.

 

For some reason there are some type of dtivers that seem to be more of a mystery andd harder to work with successfully do to the huge amount of variables that can be changed. Horns seem to have a challenging idea that has not been perfected, proof is the fact that so many that own them are so quick to start changing them trying to trying to figure out exact what is the problem (obviously they heard other speakers that sound much better or they'd never be changing anything) If they did work perfectly you’d never see such a huge number of owners changing out every single part in an attempt to correct them, although few will admit they sound awful.

A better example is the electrostatic speaker, if you’ve very owned a true electrostatic (not just Martin Logans, there’s a variety of makers if you look into them) you would know exactly what I’m saying, the owners of electrostatic drivers are never or very few are interested in modifying them ever! You just never hear of his being done, no threads, no entire websites dedicated to modifying electrostatic speakers. Once you hear electrostats in your own home and have that chance to hear a horn next to the electrostats you will be wondering exactly what you were even thinking when you thought a horn sounded good. My Klipsch have spent their last 5 years in a closet with no intentions of ever being connected in my system ever again. It’s true that you may encounter some issues with electrostats but they are worth it no matter what happens. The only real draw back is you’ll have to be without them for a while. I can say that I have some back up electrostatss around in case one does need attention simply because I have tried to dig out some other regular or horn speakers to fill in and found it was better to not listen to my stereo without the electrostats. Once you hear the electrostats you will find other speakers are putting out a huge amount of distortion and are intolerable (also lack the ability to be correctedl). I’m in that position right now with both sets of electrostats needing repair to 1 of their drivers. I have pulled out 10 other sets of higher quality speakers and I just turned it off and I’m going to pick up another set of electrostats. I’m posting all my other speakers to sell them since I know that I’ll never waste my time connecting them in my system again.

To answer the OP’s question, we have to define ’horn’. Probably an XO-point of 1 kHz or lower, give or take 100hz for driver-integration.

This includes reviewed & discussed brands Tannoy, Emerald Physics, Spatial Audio and of course reg horns like JBL & Klipsch.

Others that seem popular incl Avantgarde (esp after-market), Volti and Pure Audio Project. There are more horns, but they get expensive (Oswalds Mill and Classic Audio). 

More are buying them, as their colorations are reduced, they blend better w/ cone bass-drivers and transistor-switch noise (in SS amps) is removed.

Is there an unwritten rule that friends don’t let friends buy Klipsch? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Yes, this is true.

we have to define ’horn’. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ easy Avant Garde

 

Avantgarde (esp after-market)

 

~~~~~~~~~~~Yeah , new are very expensive.

I like my FR, which is next best thing to horns w/o the issues that come w horns.

 

no intentions of ever being connected in my system ever again. It’s true that you may encounter some issues with electrostats

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

 

The ~~~TRUTH~~ of the matter of which you speak,, is that horns have their issues and ESL/Stats also have their very own signature issues. Lets all be frank and truthful for a moment. vs FR, I find has the least issues. (actually in my set up and requirements, perfect as perfect can be = zero issues, all ++++’s, no negatives)

Here i can make this easy

Horns /Issues

ESL/Stats/Issues

Full Range /issues?? where, how, in what way.

the fact that so many that own them are so quick to start changing them trying to trying to figure out exact what is the problem ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ There are horns,, and then there are ~~THe Royal Horn Systems~~~~ 2 types, The 1st type are not mega expensive,, but as you say,, after some time start to wear a bit thin,, fatigue sets in,,, Then we have ~~The Royal Horn Systems~~~ Mega bucks, requires Buchingham palace suze listening rooms and many other issues. Which folks hang on to with their mega priced SET amps.

@mozartfan mozartfan, I disagree with your statement that:

"we have to define ’horn’. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ easy Avant Garde"

I have owned Avantgarde Duos since around 2007, like them very much, have done a few things to improve them and I don't agree that they are a conservative definition of a horn in many respects- no compression drivers, horn mouths, yes, and hybrid woofers with a plate amp bass.

Believe me, nothing said here detracts from what these are, or how much I enjoy them- I don't think it is accurate to say they define what a horn speaker is-- which, to me, would include horn loaded woofers and upper bass. Alas, that is a more involved topic. 

noticed that many people will follow the majority of what is trending, meaning if horns are the new craze, they all will be into it and then the next idea pops up. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ One defining element about the USA consumer/aka american culture in general, is whats popular, in the spot light, famous, most talked about, advertized. Then everyone just follows the pack. ConsumerIsm, commercialism. back in the 60's/70's, we all just followed what everyone else was doing. A few smart folks thought through things a bit more and made wiser purchase decisions. I believe the asian audiophiles may have had a short stint w xover type speakers,, but dumped them for FR, and now thats pretty much their speakers by choice/ based on experience. Remember it was in Japan that the FR tradition was BARELY just on its last breath,, kept alive with some high tech genius in Japan designing the legendary Coral Beta8. Had it not been for this lone genius tech in FR speaker design,,, not sure we would be where we are at in the newest FR speakers. Lowthers had issues. Fostex deserves honorable mention... But really its the tech behind the Coral Beta 8 that is the root and branch to the new flowering in FR technology.

I have owned Avantgarde Duos since around 2007, like them very much, have done a few things to improve them and I don’t agree that they are a conservative definition of a horn in many respects- no compression drivers, horn mouths, yes, and hybrid woofers with a plate amp bass. Believe me, nothing said here detracts from what these are, or how much I enjoy them- I don’t think it is accurate to say they define what a horn speaker is-- which, to me, would include horn loaded woofers and upper bass. Alas, that is a more involved topic.

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

So to be clear, AG’s do not have compression drivers??? I have no idea whats the components ina AG Duo or any of their models. All I know is AG’s have a very high reputation of delivering beautiful horn style music,,, but again, these big horns would not work in my requirements. Its too much of a **good thing** lets say. I listen very near field,,, a the moment,,, when I move in 2 yrs ,,well then sure I will have a hopefully better listening room. But that is one issue with the AG;’s, you need a moderate size room, nothing less than say 15 wide X20 deep, best with a 15 ft ceiling. My rm is short in all 3 dimensions. Horns, REAL horns I’m refering to, need breathing space. As i state above Horns have their issues. Whereas FR can fit in any size room, 8x8x8 to 20x20x20 and sound beautiful. FR Single driver(System, I run dual FR, a single FR would not work for me) have the least amount of issues vs any/all other speaker designs. In my book **least issues * = the superior design.

AG Duos'

make that room  size requirement

40x40x40

 

Is there an unwritten rule that friends don’t let friends buy Klipsch? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Yes, this is true.
 

That is rude. 

I have heard the AG Duos in four different rooms, including two small rooms and liked them in all instances.  The bass sounded more even and better integrated in the larger rooms, but there was plenty to like in even the smaller rooms—vivid, lively sound, and reasonably natural tonal qualities.  

Plenty of other horn systems, even quite large systems sound good in small rooms (look at Japanese audio magazines to see how many such systems are crammed into small spaces).  The waveguide of a horn reduces the impact of room interactions and so they can work well in smaller spaces.  I don’t know where someone would get the notion that 15’ ceilings are needed—explain what you personally heard (not youtube nonsense) that is the basis for this claim.
 

Are we refering to the AG Duos in the YT video?

Or another smaller version w/o sub bass??

If we are refering to the speaker in the YT video, I'd say a  rather large size area might accomadate such a  rather huge,,,if not massive soundstage.

Horns like stats need huge areas to breathe,,othwise the listener feels he is being attacked by the speakers.

Small room for a  horn??
Ner heard such a   set up.

 

Wrong as usual mozartfan. I am using large horn speakers in a smaller 11x13 room with no problems.

Well, if you never heard such a setup, you cannot comment based on experience.  As I write this I am sitting 8 ft from a horn setup in a most sized room.  I have heard few systems I like more than what I have (those too were horn systems), and I’ve heard quite a number of single driver full-range systems and multi-way systems with full-range drivers.  I might be persuaded to trade in my horn system for a two-way system utilizing a Jensen M10 fieldcoil full-range driver and a Western Electric 597 fieldcoil tweeter, but then again, maybe not.  At a much lower price point, I could live with a single-driver Charney Audio speaker (with the AER driver).  In other words, there is more than one approach to design that sounds good and there is no need to insist there is only one way, much less one particular set of components, that sounds good.

Small room filled with stuff, typical Japanese audiophiler, Horns are 1/2 of one of 2 maybe 3 rooms. I've seen a few that way. BIG Tannoys in custom hand made hardwood cabinets.. I love it.. Makes sense to me.. I really like Imperials. too.

I wish I had a 20 acre speaker Museum. Makes even MORE good sense come to think of it.. :-) Second as a solar farm. Man oh man!! :-)

Regards

single-driver

 

 

Note most big high end horn SYSTEMS have more than a single driver.

This dual thingy worked out really **splendid* to use a old english slang. In spite of the Society of FR Entheusiasts who all voted to give me the boot out of THEIR Club over at DIY, I broke THEIR rules ,,dual FR are not allowed + cabinets MUST be built by EXACT specs , tests, graphs, comp program models, Dindt learn a d**n thing over there. Just a bunch of babble. I can’t live with a single FR, not enough zing factor. My 2nd tweeter arrives tomorrow. Horns might make a deeper sound, larger than life soundstage, but these duo’s are working out OK. Worlds only FR Duo’s. haha

Friends don't let friends listen to self-important snarky posts.

So...I've dabbled on and off with Klipsch too after having polar opposite speakers in my system. I run a Pass 250.8 amp, Pass XP10 Pre, PS Audio DS Jr DAC and have a REL s5/SHO sub, with a JL audio F113 v2 on the way. I have a dedicated 13x22 listening room that's acoustically pretty tight. 

I've had Focal 1038 BE, Focal Sopra 2, B&W 805 D3, Harbeth 30.2, Harbeth HL5 Super Plus and several others. Of all of these the Focal 1038 and Harbeth HL5 stood out as most musical. Last year I tried a pair of Klipsch Heresy 3 for a few months - they did a lot right but had a mid bass hump and some "honkiness" in the mid on some music. Being on the floor also lowered the height of their sound staging. A few months ago I bought a pair of Klipsch Cornwall 4 after reading great reviews and hearing from a friend of mine how much he loved his. They turned out to be really good, musical and great with both low level and "crank it up" levels. I listen to jazz, funk, soul, acoustic, etc. They speakers are pretty big- and I put them on 6" amp stands, with minimal EQ in Roon to lower some bass around 80-125 hz, they sound really good- huge soundstage, no honkiness  and integrating my sub was easy too. I think they deserve more respect than they get but who knows, we're all opinionated about our gear. They do have a problem with fitting into a typical room's decor due to their size however. But, that's what second and third systems are for ;).

Got khorns in 1982. Upgraded to full volti audio in 2015. The improvement was astounding. Will have khorns until death do us part. These speakers could make a toaster sound good. Use tubes for amplification. Heaven on Earth. Have no apologies for Klipsch fans. Khorns now sound like a khorn should sound. IMHO

The advantage IMO of horn loaded speakers is their efficiency. The disadvantage is coloration, they usually have a characteristic horn sound, like its coming from a tube, which it is. 

 JBL have done a pretty good job of taming horn speakers, with wide waveguides and crossovers but at the expense of efficiency.

"Is it the Klipsch name that illicits this type of response (1) or is it Horn speakers in general? (2)"

[please excuse my bad English]

I am afraid it is the #1 answer.

But there is nothing wrong with your choice; after all, it has to suit you.

I heard the Klipsch Cornwall again recently at a show. I personally would not use them for my favorite classical music works (or any acoustic instruments recording), but with all other genres (especially rock & pop), I admit they can provide a lot of fun.

I usually hate horns. Nevertheless, I recently discovered some horn speakers that sing like divas (but are as pricey as a car).

Enjoy your music, whatever the speakers and others opinions.

Have had Rectilinear, Visonik, ADS, Maggies, Thiels, Acoustat, M&K, Salk (still have these), and probably a few others I've forgotten, and have no complaints on running Forte IV's in my main (of 3) system.

Plenty of people enjoy their horns stock, others enjoy modded. Now, what exactly is wrong with horns, seems like all these people are satisfied. Unless we're all masochist and only fooling ourselves.

 

Perhaps the ease with which horns are amenable to diy or off the shelf mods is part of the appeal.

 

By the way, I've modded box speakers, open baffle and horns, I like my speakers to fit my exact needs. Nothing inherently wrong with any of these designs.

 

 

I have had horn speakers in my life from the very first purchase and now as possibly the last in my systems and loved them. I started as a kid in 1976 with a pair of B.I.C. Venturi. For $79.95 and now have JBL Array 1400s. Super happy with them! The accents horns give to vocals and guitar music’ richness is second to none, IMHO. These are very non-fatiguing to me, can listen to for hours. I traded my B&W 802s for these and haven’t looked back since. They are super unique looking, and are very neutral in most music. I power them with a Mac SS power plant, and Mac tube Pre which adds to the non-fatiguing effect. They ran me about $6k used which is half of retail and they were only a couple years old, so I felt it was a steal. The guy who I bought them from was jonesing for the JBL K2s, so he wanted more horns to replace them. Even though the midrange and tweeters look like horns they are actually compression drivers with horns for dispersion, and they do an excellent job of that. I don’t think you made a mistake with your Cornwalls though…if I bought Klipsch, those would be for me. Enjoy your purchase no matter what people say…

Nice write-up @cohicks4 , but I’m a little confused:

 

Even though the midrange and tweeters look like horns they are actually compression drivers with horns for dispersion

Most horn mids and tweets I know of ARE compression drivers. I think you may be thinking of horn loaded bass cabinets as a "true" horn speaker, but in my experience, both are considered true horn speakers. Just different drivers attached.

I wouldn’t say "even though ... look like horns..." because they really are horn speakers. If they lacked the compression driver they might be called "wave guides" instead, but potato potatoe.

Using compression drivers attached to a horn is 100% pro horn speaker construction.  Nothing illegitimate about it.

Copy that Erik, guess I was confused, but it was JBLs fault😂, they compared true horns with their compression versions in the write-up. Either way they are excellent sounding, and thanks for the clarity!

This puts it better.  As you can see from the article, the raison d'etre for compression drivers IS horn speakers:

 

 

 

Great info, thanks…maybe I should spend more time reading and less listening?

cohicks4,

I had the Array1400's too. They are excellent speakers, and the looks are a knockout. Nothing else looks like them.

Altec's here. HeathKit AS101, basically Altec Valencias in much nicer cabinets. New crossovers and 902 drivers to replace the stock 806 drivers. Sounds fabulous, haven't heard anything yet that makes me feel deprived.

Using Mac MC40 for power and everything else is tube as well. Love it.

 

BillWojo

Horns are not inherently the smoothest sounding solution, by and large. 

Smooth compared to what? There are many types of horns and compression drivers behind them, so that comment is the worst kind of broad stroke generalization. 

vlad-

What did you hear? Speaker? Associated equipment?

@cohicks4,

Hi,

I've been running JBL 4435 Monitors in my audio rig since 1983. IMHO: They are eargasmic! The Array1400's are nice speakers, design by Greg Timbers. FWIW; All horns are waveguides, not all waveguides are horns. Good read on horns by Don Keele, he also designed the horn in the 4435/30 monitors. See below. 

https://www.xlrtechs.com/dbkeele.com/papers.htm

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?10643-1400-Array

Mike

 

 

Thanks for the info Mike, those 4435s are classics and awesome!

I own AG Duos, Tune Audio Marvels, and Shinjitsu Acoustics. 
I’ve also recently owned late model LavScalas.

 

i’ve also owned Pipedreams Model 21’s, MG 20’s, Sound Lab A1’s, B&W 801’s, 

Martin Logan 15a’s, etc. My good friends own Alsyvox and ML CLX’s.

 

ALL SYSTEMS are sensitive to proper set up. But good horns will tell you exactly what’s on the recording and not everyone likes to know. 😎

@cohicks4,

You’re welcome! Lets not forget it was a horn that brought down the walls, of Jericho. LOL

Mike

ALL SYSTEMS are sensitive to proper set up. But good horns will tell you exactly what’s on the recording and not everyone likes to know. 😎

      I agree!

I got a call one day for a set of Chorus I's I was selling on Craigslist. the guy was desperate and the some of the people on Audiogon had convinced him that the minimum he had to spend for entry level high end stereo was $80g. He was distraught because as a retired postal worker he did not have that kind of money. Out of desperation he was considering Klipsch and then said he had been advised against Klipsch because IT WAS TOO LIFELIKE!! My jaw hit the table. I happened to have some KPT-456's also and I told him for $1500 he could have something really good. He bought a set and on his way out the door I asked him what he had heard that these were similar to. He only mentioned expensive B&W speakers which by the way he said did not sound as good as the Klipsch KPT-456's.

 He later fixed them up to look quite nice and got them featured on Steve Guttenbergs home owner systems page. I have no idea why the animosity towards Klipsch but I find it pretty strange considering how odd signature sound from expensive speakers can sound at times. The goal for me is lifelike sound replication and not some flavor of trendy distortion.

 

  I have not heard the Forte 4's but I have heard the CW 4's which are simply superb in accurate sound reproduction.

@zinda, That's a long first post, welcome to the forum.

I think you are a little confused regarding crossover caps and ESR.

Hint: ESR is a non-issue for XO caps. We are talking audio frequencies here, not RF

I have a set of khorns purchased in 1982 that were upgraded to the full volti audio treatment in 2017. I also switched to tubes shortly thereafter and the set amplifiers I use are the path to Nirvana for me. I have no desire to look for any improvement. My dream system is here!  IMHO

 Horn speakers have small diaphragms, working in a powerful magnetic field and acoustically loaded, which producers high efficiency and low distortion. Downside is that the waveguide creates coloration. 

My JBL 1400's are the least colored of any horn speaker I've heard, but the trade off is that to tame those resonances results in less efficiency and there is still a hint of "horniness". But I can live with that.

Avantgrade for me, I have  3 different pairs. 

TrioXD

Duo Primo Xd

and 

Duo XD.

No distortion from the horns....due to mechanical amplification nature of these horns

I must say you have quite the fleet...and all XD's, no less. Had my Duos for 20 years now and they still satisfy.

I love them, I just bought another pair for a small living room in my house in the USA. 

@vladtheimpala blanket statements like that are never true. If you have never listen to a naturally warm, engaging and add any other adjectives you want horn speaker, then you have never listened an Avantgrade in a good system.

The Duos Avantgrade, as good and in many cases better than my Sonus Faber Aida, the Trio leaves the Aida in the dust, as it does  my Tannoy’s, or any of the other speakers I own, including the Wilson.

if the Avantgrade sound harsh, then it is either the system connected to them or the music or the room placement.

if you are ever around Barcelona, let me know, I will let you listen to them with any of my amps, including my Audio Signature Ginrei and the soon to come The Legend. If you don’t like it and find the music to be engaging and as real as you have listened, I gladly buy you dinner.

I think the Avantgarde speakers represent modern horn systems quite well--they are dynamic, engaging, and fun to listen to with no more tonal issues than any other speakers.  Yes, all speakers are voiced differently, so it may be the case that an Avantgarde speaker may not fit one's particular taste, but, none of the systems I heard were so extreme in tonal balance that they stood out in that respect.  Like all horn systems, they do require very good amplification, particularly at the low wattage levels that they will require.  I heard the Duos and Trios with both tube and solid state electronics; for me, low-wattage tube is the way to go.