"lots of analog enthusiasts think, that analog reproduction is automatically better than everything else. That's a mistake, I listened to countless analog set ups which were simply nothing special"
That is a fact. The vast percentage of playback systems back in the golden age of vinyl were quite poor. Many more were mediocre. Only a few were really good. And a large % of records produced over the years aren't all that hot either!
That's why it gets my goat a bit when someone argues that a particular format is categorically better than another. There are too many things that go into good sound otherwise that matters to even consider making such statements realistically. |
Khaki8,
What are the 4 stations here in NYC with high quality broadcasting? This thread has got me curious.
I would like to give my old tubed Sherwood tuner a shot on a decent radio station. I don't expect it to compete with a good tt set-up, but before reading this thread I was recently contemplating radio station transmission and whether or not a tuner could be a high quality source.
Thanks! |
There are a couple over the air classical stations out of NYC that sound very good broadcast over the internet for sure on a decent properly equipped stereo system. One is WNYC I think off the top of my head. |
96.3, 90.7, 93.9 and 88.3 all are pretty good sound and the different shows really teach you about new music. One of my favorites is the Moonshine show on Sunday...not sure which station though.
They played from Ramblin' Boy by Charlie Haden with family and friends. He is famous as a jazz bassist. Bought the cd and the vinyl. Quality of the vinyl is fantastic!!
Love hearing different music. |
|
Dear Jimpcn: +++++ " its a shocking revelation to me that the tuner is the highest quality source in two channel. " +++++
IMHO and to be a little " wilingness " about it is not the highest quality source only different.
Now, if your +10K analog rig and the ones from your friends are " surpassed " by the tunner then IMHO you and your friends are in serious trouble about not only your analog rig but your whole audio system, at least with analog.
There are other things that maybe could happen for that: that yours music/sound priorities are a little " odd ", that all of you do not have a lot of live music experiences, that the whole set-up is wrong somewhere, that you and your friends are not " golden ears ", that you and your friends like it more the tunner " colorations/distortions ", that, that, that, etc, etc.
I'm not saying that all these can/could happen what I'm saying is that something is wrong or at least out of " standards ". There is nothing wrong with that but your statement is something that happen to you and friends and not with other 99.95% of the analog audio community.
Bis a Bis ( everything the same ) IMHO it is almost impossible ( for normal people ) that many/several of us can/could agree with your statement.
Now, that is a good news for you and your friends because you can/could put on sale the analog rigs and make some money and go on enjoying those very good radio stations, that you have in Toronto , from your remote: that's great.
Btw, some one posted about some specs on FM signal at radio station and told us: " WAY better than ANY phono cartridge. ".
Well, I have some cartridges that are " way better than.... ", to say " any " means an " absolute true " and IMHO nothing is totally perfect to surpass " any ", well like always only my opinion, I respect the other people opinions even if I don't agree with.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
I have always wondered about why some super-priced tuners have a market. I can understand about moderately priced tuners...
The signal goes through a lot of processing, and is sent over the air, only to be processed more by your tuner. The level of processing can be argued to be the reason why super-priced tuners are priced as they are -- accurate demodulation of the received signal. My questions remain, is the fidelity of the original source is really maintained, and is the fidelity of the original source as good as a properly set up, high quality turntable?
On the question of the original source, the the quality of the cd processors used in radio stations may far surpass our home processors. But it is still digital...
I am an analogue fan, both in photography and audio. In both realms, I have never experienced digital that can capture the nuances, including textures and subtleties of detail, and the naturalness, of analogue. I read a criticism of a digital photo where snow looked like concrete. There was nothing natural, nor accurate about the photo, and it was taken with a state-of-the-art professional digital camera costing thousands of dollars. I agreed when I saw the photo. I believe the argument of digital audio versus analog is analogous.
So, from my perspective, I actually would never think that radio could compete with a high-quality, well set up turntable. Even if the radio station source was analogue, with it's signal processing, I still would not think it could beat direct high quality turntable signal.
Also, isn't radio supposed to go digital in the near future?
These thoughts add up in my mind and make me wonder how some tuners can be so expensive and actually sell. The only thing I can think of is that it is all relative -- to some, a thousand or more dollars for a tuner is not expensive. |
Raul and Bicycle man, I thouoght exactly like you gentleman
before I heard it myself.
I think I will email Dynalab and ask them because they may have an explanation ???
Your point Bicycle man is right on, its the only conclusion
anyone can possibly make that has not heard the Dynalab 109 tuner!
Your great point is how can they sell such an expensive piece if they were not that good ?????????????????????.
I will admit that the two sounds are different! that's why my friend and I have come to the conclusion the the tuner is better, haha
turntable has more depth and is less coloured and at times, but tuner is way more believable !!!
Way more dynamic,
way more intimate (and thats shocking0, and more flesh and body sounding, than a table could ever dream of being.
those three elements are strong coomponents to similate live music IMHO. !!!
My personnel guess on the reason, is that the output voltage or strength if you will of the signal is way greater with tuner than the mv of a low output moving coil cartridge. I think that has something to do with it but am just guessing ???
Raul, that talk about listening to live music is insulting
and ridicoulous!
there is so much BS. in audiophilia that it's hilarious.
Also dont get it twisted, for all those audiophiles with lesser tuners, in my opinion they may not sound as good as a good turntable front end ?
I am only talking about the super tuners like Day Sequerra,Dynalab, and maybe the top of the line Accuphase
tuners.
Although the macintosh and scott tuners sound good they are just not in this league. IMHO>
I wish I could hear from other audiophiles who own both mediums to hear their opinions too.
peace
|
Dear Jimpcn: +++++ " Raul, that talk about listening to live music is insulting
and ridicoulous! " +++++
well, that was not my intention and maybe from your point of view it could be " ridicoulous " but not insulting because I posted:
+++++ " There are other things that maybe could happen for that... " ++++ and then: +++++ " I'm not saying that all these can/could happen.... " +++++
so please don't take it like the " suit" is exactly on your size.
Those are mere assumptions due that you don't say which is your analog rig: your whole audio system, to figure what is happen down there. Why don't do it? then will be more easy to any one to understand what you are experienced.
If you can please do it, we appreciate that.
Now, I don't have a doubt of what you and your friends are hearing through the tunner, I would like to know why : I always like a rational " explanation " to really understand any subject.
IMHO till this post I don't read objective facts ( other that you and your friends are in love with the tunner source ) that help all of us what is happening and for your words there are happening " great " things, well I and maybe some one else would like to experience those " great " things, maybe duplicate what you have.
Your thread is a interesting one so we can discuss in intelligent/serious way and try to achieve real conclusions.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
>>Although the macintosh and scott tuners sound good they are just not in this league<<
I agree.
The Mac 67,71,77, and 78 smoke the 109. |
AAhhhhhaaaaa
I'll tell my friend to sell his 109 and blow off the dust of those MacIntosh units out of his closet and use them because there better.
that's funny, your hiliarious, maybe you would like to buy
those tuners from him? he can use some cash.
Seriously I guess there are no absolutes in audio
and one mans mediocracy is another mans excellence?
I am reluctant to tell what system my friend has because
of his privacy, but can tell you that his TT front end has a reputation to be very good.
He is using a fourway speaker that is quad amped thru a tube
electronic crossover using hiend end wire with a tube ref. preamp, hiend tube transformer coupled phono stage, 5000.00
moving coil cartridge, magnetic bearing turntable etc.
you get the picture?
I can assure his system is up to the task!
but this is only my opinion and my wife an tell u
I have been wrong before, so take it for what its worth?
later, |
Dear Jimpcn: Too many tubes and IMHO some in the wrong place but this is for other thread.
Thank you for the info.
Btw, +++++ " I listened to countless analog set ups which were simply nothing special (no depth, no body, no holographic picture, colored in nearly all frequencies etc....) and even expensive Systems can be really boring. " +++++
maybe that " reference " analog system belongs to these kind of audio systems.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Its probably just that you happen to prefer the sound of the tuner. |
You nailed it, Mapman. After Jimpcn made this statement this entire discussion is almost moot because it is a matter of preference in the end. The tuner sounds similiar but has more dynamics and colorations, but is intimate, and just sounds damn good. |
the amplifiers are transistor, preamp is tube nice combo;
also I don't buy the argument that his TT front end
belongs to that boring category, because I already mentioned that at times his table has more depth than the tuner, body is good and dynamics ok but not as good as the tuner; but in areas that are most important to recreate live sound the tuner dose a better job; IMO
If TT sound so bad, he would sell it and buy something else
but each move in the vinyl system has been an upgrade and he is not
interested in selling any pieces at this time.
vinyl is close to being max out.
the comment about this discussion being moot?
well that is always the case here on this discussion form
only because you can't all come and hear this comparison.
but, it is not moot if it just opens someones mind, and changes their preconceived notion based on audio BS. something
is learned, my intention and point is this, vinyl is no longer king of the hill(IMO) and diminishing returns should be considered.
I may downscale the vinyl medium, and with the cash get a 109 !
tuner is way more dynamic,
way more intimate (and that's shocking), and more flesh and body sounding, than a table could ever dream of.
those three elements are strong components to simulate live music IMHO. !!!
I am convinced that if a record or cd is playing from your CD player or TT, the radio stations same song will always sound better thru this 109 tuner.
I wish I knew why and how, but that is a fact and I am sticking with it !
until proven other wise, and if I hear something different
I will come back and report it and eat some crow.
peace brothers. |
Dear Jimpcn: +++++ " but not as good as the tuner; but in areas that are most important to recreate live sound the tuner dose a better job; IMO " +++++
well everyone of us want and look for " recrete live sound ", there is no way this can/could happen because the best we can have is what is on the recording that was take it by the micros and then followed for many steps ( distortions/colorations ) till we have it through a LP.
+++++ " I am convinced that if a record or cd is playing from your CD player or TT, the radio stations same song will always sound better thru this 109 tuner. " +++++
" always sound better ", this is what you heard/hear and what you like and I respect that but I'm trying to figure/wonder why an audio signal ( FM/radio signal ) that pass through at least one-two additional stages ( maybe are 10 or more ) not only does not suffer any degradation ( and this is impossible ) but " suffer " an improvement!!!, how is that? how could happen? do you have a rational/objective explanation? because it does not make any sense, we are in 2009 year not in the 2081 one.
Btw, which audio system you own?, could share with us?
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear Jim: Well it seems to me ( IMHO of course ) that this time we don't learn or discover something " exciting " something that could change what we think/learned ( through the years ) about the analog experience on our home audio systems.
Btw, nice try.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Well sorry if raising this issue is nothing new, but it was an eye opener for me, and thought it would be interesting for others too.
You wanted to know what I'm listening for a stereo system,
no problem here goes, but Don't judge me on how deep my pockets are, but rather I call tell you i have building stereo systems for about thirty years and have alot of general audio experience.
My system is going thru a transition because I sold my house and am now in a smaller apartment.
Also I would like say, I build most of my stereo
components to save cash!
For example it my opinion finished speakers are the biggest
waist of cash, they are marked up big time.
I'm not so concerned with looks as sound, so I buy the best drivers available and connect to an electronic crossover
and anyone can compete with the very best for a song and a dance.
I do alot of dancing especially after visiting stereo salons or audio shows. :>)
my hunble system consists of
CD player- audiolab DCM8000 transport
Benchmark DAC
turntable-transrotor megnetic bearing Turntable
Shroder tonearm
Bluenote Boboli Special cartridge
Benz Lukaschek PP-1 Phono Preamp
Preamp Built by me but designed by an article in glass
audio, it was a stereo version so I doubled this
design to make a fully balanced vacuum tube
peamp. It uses a single 6080 triode tube but has
vacuum tube regulation and seems to be similar
in sound to something like Audio Research Ref.3
but without fancy enclosure or remote control :<(
Ampifiers; Three stereo amplifiers driving my three way
speaker system.
here is a big tip! for those who suffered me
this far.
Jeff Rowland uses class D modules like ice-modules if you heard of them and puts them in fancy enclosure and charges crazy money!
I found better modules and put together my own amplifiers
from a company in Europe called Hypex. They sell amplifier modules and power supplies that will render all Class A amplifiers obsolete in a few years. IMHO.
these amplifiers are incredible value.
If any one is thinking of buying a Mark levinson, Jeff Rowland or Krell, would be crazy because the reviews have
agreed that these modules sound similiar to accuphase classA amps but uses little power and run very kool.
Speakers; There again homemade, sorry
My house speakers were refridgerator size
double wall boxes that housed four 13 focal
woofers, tuned to 28 hz. four scanninng 2" domes
and a scanspeak
revelator tweeter in a MTM configuration.
Marchland 44 electronic crossover, 3-way.
All wires are the latest Cardas reference interconnects
and speaker wires, fully balanced.
My new apartment speakers will be a bit of a downsize but
believe I can save the same flavour using four 10" woofers
tuned to 28 hz. with a killer killer 10" volt midrange driver, and the scanspeak revelator tweeter.
Here another huge speaker tip!
For all you midfi guys looking to jump up to the big leagues
get a volt 10" midbass driver for midrange I believe model BM2500. Put it in a small sealed box just big enough to
physically insert the driver and add a scanspeak softdome
tweeter with capacitor for a 6 db crossover at 2000hz add
any subwoofer or bass boxes you like and you will be barking with the big dogs guaranteed!
the 10" Volt speaker is vary smooth so crossover doesnt need to be complex.
please us a softdome tweeter and leave those metal ribbon
things for keeping sandwiches fresh and not for music, ok.
This driver is very dynamic, transparent, very fast,depth thru your back walls, this ten inch driver uses the same magnet drive system as there 15 " woofer!!!
If you want to get really crazy buy two per channel and go
MTM and your done for life.
$100,000 speakers rarely use drivers of this quality
bloody shame.
Sorry for rambling, audio is my passion. |
Dear Jim: Thank you for share your system and thank you for the wide explanation, I don't have any doubt that you really enjoy what you have: congratulations, a real passion for audio.
Btw, why no tuner?
regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Hi Jimpcn,
I enjoyed reading about your system! Thank you for sharing your speaker design; it sounds like a good future project.
Something that came to mind about your friend's tt is about the cartridge and its set-up. Perhaps it is an intrinsically laid back cartridge in its sound characteristic. An analogous situation happened to me with rolling some 12ax7's. I found Telefunkens to be laid back and thus lacking the sparkle of Bugle Boys. During a-b listening, I concluded that I would not buy more Telefunkens because of their sonic character. Other people have reported that they really like this characteristic.
Another thing that came to mind was that perhaps the vta needed tweaking.
Just thoughts...
Your pre-amp sounds really interesting! What issue of Glass Audio was it from? I am actually interested in trying it out. Alternatively, do you have a schematic that you would not mind sharing with me? I, too, am more of a DIY'er. I have old tube equipment that I modify and repair.
Thank you, in advance for any further information you can provide me!
Best regards. |
like I said previously, I am not a tuner guy !!!
but because of the sound quality at my friends I'm saving to buy a used Dynalab 109 tuner!
Do not have a tuner at the moment, had a top of the line sansui 9900, and various macintosh tube tuners, even once had the dynalab 102 but the remote drove me crazy, ended up sell them all and listen very little to them because I prefered CD's and my vinyl collection to the commercial crap
they mostly play radio.
Never really missed the tuner.
Now just recently there are stations with new management playing better material, and the quality of the 109 is staggering, IMO.
So I am saving up for a used unit.
That's why I did not list a tuner, because I don't have it as yet, maybe in summer time if one comes up? |
Bicycle_man I will be glad to share the article and schematic
but it's late tonight, promise to get back to you tomorrow.
I'll have to dig it out and will take time.
Regarding your point about his turntable setup, thats a grey area that I cannot vouch for.
he has a 12 " arm and there is no mistracking what so ever,
dont tell anyone I said so but he using Dynavector XV-1s
I do know that VTA is critical; that most cartridges will lock in at a certain sweet spot, but the
tuner just destroys that vinyl front end so bad its embarrasing!!!
My friend is not an idiot, so I'm assuming VTA is adjusted correctly. ???
later, |
Hi Jim-
I applaud your level of DIY, but I have to disagree about your generalization about the various ICE modules. Since the manufacturers of class-D amps readily admit that voicing is crucial, and that the class-D amps using ICE modules all sound different, it is far more than the manufacturers simply putting them in fancy boxes. It has been argued by the designers themselves that voicing the Class-D module based amps is at least as important, if not more important, than voicing A or AB amplifiers. The choices of connectors, wire, chassis damping, power supply components, binding posts, even boards make even greater differences than with linear supply A and AB amps.
I have no doubt that your amplifiers sound fine, and applaud your thrift in making equipment. Money spent is hardly the point in audio- good sound is everyone's goal. However, make no mistake, the upper echelon ICE module amps have more design and thought into them than simply putting them in fancy boxes.
BTW, congratulations on not letting this thread get to you, and maintaining civility. Kudos! |
Hi Jimpcn,
The Dynavector XV-1s does not sound like a laid-back cartridge, based on the reviews. The reviews portray it as dynamic and incredible in its imaging capabilities.
I recall the Dynalabs as great tuners when I worked in audio. I never took radio as such a serious source. I will reconsider and do some serious listening after reading this thread.
Thank you for your efforts about the pre-amp information. I am very curious about using a 6080 in a pre-amp! Have you ever checked out this guy's page: http://www.normankoren.com/Audio/index.html ? I think what he does to a Pas3 pre-amp is interesting. I also think his amp is interesting. Heavy projects, but I am considering them.
Best regards. |
I did not use ice-moduels if you read carefully.
Just mentioned them because more people has heard of them.
I used Hypex modules that are similiar but way better !!!
cheers. |
Bycle_man I just took a look at that Pas3 and although
it looks like a good up grade, would not do it unless you already have the pas3 and are on a small budget.
Here is the article I promised you, its from Audio Express Oct 2005; "Design a high performance Valve-Based line amp."
If you can get a hold of that article, after reading it you will know this designer knows his Stuff!
The only caution I have is that this circuit is very highly
microphonic so the main board must, Must be floating or else
the noise will be excessive.
It is not a beginners project, but the sonic rewards are great if you can handle it!
That said and if I had to do it all again, I really like the K & K stuff ! see http://www.kandkaudio.com
And would recommend there preamp kits especially phono stages !!!
good luck. |
Thank you Jimpcn!
Happy listening! |
The most rewarding experience is listening to a direct FM transmitted from the concert hall live , even with my bottom of the line Magnum Dynalab MD 90 T it is the closest approach to beeing in first row at the concert.
Of course the reason for this is that there is no recording process degrading the signal in the transmitting chain. I listen only vinyl for the quality of recorded sound, but when there is a live FM transmitted concert it is better than any other recorded media. Even with a modest tuner. |
This is an interesting thread for the most part, I certainly learned quite a bit from those who could describe the radio broadcast chain. Never knew the details but I did know there was a lot of variability based on the station and engineer.
For instance I live in the NYC and Philly metro areas. I listen to two classical stations (among others) that each broadcast the Metropolitan Opera live on Saturday afternoons:
WQXR 96.3 in NYC and WWFM 89.1 in Mercer County NJ. The differences in quality of the broadcast are very noticeable with WWFM winning hands down. Not to say QXR is wretched but WWFM betters it by a country mile.
Of course having the same broadcast material played at the same time helps a lot in the A/B comparison. And the MD-108 don't hurt either.
I listen to a LOT of FM but I am fortunate to live within these two large markets, and there are a lot of good stations.
Cheers all. |
sorry gentleman I had made an error regarding my preamp, I said it was form issue, dAudio Express Oct 2005 which is incorrect, its actually from AudioXpress Febuary 2004 issue and the article title is "A Low-MU Triode Preamp"!!!
thanks and sorry for any inconviences,
Regards Jim. |
In defence of my original stance that the tuner smokes anolog front ends I would like to state this fact.
Although the dynalab 108 tuner is a very good tuner, it is based on their older design, and if you could only hear/imagine the 109 is a totally new design and I would say in a completely different league from the sound of the 108!
And yes, I know nobody said that the 108 was better, but my point is, for all of you that have the 108,
congradulations because it is very good, but the 109,
I am just stating and am quite sure will destroy any anolog front end in the world regardless of cost.
IMO.
And to this day cant understand why, it makes no sence
but is just so. imo? |
I don't think its unusual for a tuner to sound "intimate" as you describe. With good source material at the station, dynamics can be pretty good as well. I could relate similar experiences using Tandberg, Carver, and other tuners with a good source station and source program material (particularly live broadcasts as someone above mentioned) as well.
However, the frequency response is rolled off at the top end due to format limitations, right? For some who find a hot top end annoying, this can actually be deemed a good thing.
So I don't necessarily find it to be that surprising. A tuner as costly as that Magnum Dynalab should blow away most anything else as well I would expect at that price. |
can't argue with what you said Mapman, this old dude struggles to hear above 16k anyways.
but it is surprising to me because many analog front ends here and world wide easily surpasses the $10,000.00 mark and still is
unable to match the tuner for sound.
What is also surprising to me is the signal on vynal is probably more direct , than a signal passing thru the air
with all the interferences, not to mention all the processing, and reprocessing to analogy and ranes as the
highest quality source I know of or experienced. |
"What is also surprising to me is the signal on vynal is probably more direct , than a signal passing thru the air
with all the interferences, not to mention all the processing, and reprocessing to analogy and ranes as the
highest quality source I know of or experienced."
I think you can assert it sounds really good, intimate, dynamic or whatever, but these are subjective judgements so that is OK.
Not sure how you establish the source as "highest quality" though. That would be difficult to prove or establish using any meaningful specs or measurements, I would think.
Personally, I do not believe that the best specs always wins in regards to enjoyment of sound, nor do I believe that price is a reliable indicator of resulting sound quality or enjoyment potential. |
>>but it is surprising to me because many analog front ends here and world wide easily surpasses the $10,000.00 mark and still is unable to match the tuner for sound.<<
I can assemble a dozen analog front ends for less than $10K that will blast the 109 into embarrassment.
Dealer disclaimer: I sell the 109 |
Dear Jimpcn, Thank you for correcting which issue of Audioxpress your pre-amp came from. I was wondering about the issue you originally cited because the closest article that I could find that made sense from Oct. 2005 was, "Design a High-Performance Valve-Based Line Amp." And, I recalled you mentioning the phono stage; a line amp would not have one.
2005 looks like an interesting year with the series of articles of tips on constructing tube amp projects. |
bycle-man this is only a line preamp !!!
go back and re-read the what I had said, I did not say there was a phono stage in my preamp.; but I did recommend the K&Ktube phono stage.
Sorry for the confusion. |
Thanks, Jimpcn!
(2005 does look like a good year for the audio journal, though.) |
By the way, Jimpcn, I did take another look just now at your earlier posts. I see where I was misled. At one point, 3-05-2009 I believe, you said that you and your friends have more than $10k invested in turntables. And you repeatedly mention how the 109 blows away turntables.
I misunderstood. Thanks for pointing out how your pre-amp is line-stage only.
I am still very curious about it using a 6080 tube. It is an indirectly heated dual triode. I think it was originally used in power supply or rectifier circuits. I could be wrong, though. But, how is it used in your pre-amp circuit? As the line level amplifier, one triode section per channel? If so, is there any cross-talk? |
Hard to believe but I am inclined to agree. Somewhat. Directly streamed live performances are really sound great than if it were recorded and played back at the radio station. Listen to for example, the LA NPR station 89.9 FM. (not 89.3 FM in this time slot) weekdays at lunch time (~11.30-12.30 or so). Live performances sound soooo different than recorded broadcast music. Tells you there is more lost in recorded medium than broadcast thru airwaves. And this is just in car listening comparison. If you had top notch tuner, it is highly believable. I don't know why but it does sound great. |
Nithepill, thanks
I am not lossing my mind ??? haha |
Bicycle_man the 6080 is a dual triode, but both units are used per channel !
So for a stereo pair, two 6080 tubes are required; one per channel so cross chalk is not an issue.
It uses EL34 as CCS to regulate the plate voltage, Kool.
Since you sound serious, give me your mailing address and
I'll send you a copy of this article/schematic.
It's by Mr. Pete Millett, I have no idea who he is, but sounds to me, he really know his tube stuff !!! and is probably the most knowledgeable tube guy I have ever come across.
But as I warned, before, EXTREMELY microphonic, precautions
must be implemented, like floating sockets or boards, but the pain is well worth it. |
Having just discovered this thread I would like to make a few comments. First I read most of the answers skipping only a few. I have enjoyed FM music for years. I have what I feel near SOTA digital system which I totally enjoy but currently play no vinyl. My tuner is MD106t and I live in a rual area. The MD106t is one of the better sounding tuners available (yes I have heard all the vintage tuners) and on a strong station the MD106t is just as involving as my near SOTA digital system. I have heard the MD108 in my system and it took the FM broadcast to another level beyond my digital CD playback system. The MD 109 is a step up from the MD108. Why does the FM sound better? Who knows! My suggestion for those who doubt is to get your hands on a MD108 or 109 along with a good antenna and find out just how good FM can be. |
I own two 1970's vintage Luxman tuners: the T-530 and its European counterpart, the T-02 and they have become my preferred source components. Outstanding musicality and sound reproduction, unbeaten convenience and a tremendous variety of musical genres for the price of a "song". Add a $6 dipole antennae taped to a wooden dowel and we easily draw in great sounding FM stations 100 + miles away. Not that the Jungson WG-1 CD player and Spacedeck/arm Benz H2 vinyl rig pale in comparison, but there is something about the tuners' sonic signatures that are very compelling, very enjoyable. |
Don't forget that radio stations play only the very best sources, too.
I've purchased CD's that our classical radio station played and found the one "cut" they played was way above the quality of the rest of the "cuts". I have come to the conclusion that for best sound, just buy the CD's that the radio station plays and just play those cuts! |
Has anyone actually seen what most stations have as sources, it is usually not very good or for that matter porrly maintained.
There is absoutely no way a tuner can play as true to the source (LP) as a good front end at home can. There are simply too many variables involved in the chain from station to tuner. You might like the sound from your tuner more than your front end but that would either mean you find the distortion coming from the FM pleasing or your front end is compromised by poor set up. |
>>02-02-11: Spatialking
Don't forget that radio stations play only the very best sources, too.<<
That is plain and simple BS. |
I just saw this thread, and I can relate to it on several levels.
First, back in the 1970s, I used to think my modified Dyna FM-3 (regulated power supply and upgraded caps and resistors) sounded better than my LPs and I had the same puzzled reaction that the OP had. Then one day I put on the same LP that was playing on the FM station, and I was able to switch back and forth. The vinyl was cleaner and more detailed; the FM-3 however was rich, warm and dynamic which made it very involving and a lot of fun to listen to. After the A/B comparison, I had a better understanding of what the Dyna tuner was adding to the sound. It was euphonic and enjoyable but in some respects not as accurate.
Second, while it is true that many FM stations compress the signal terribly and use sub-par source equipment, not all stations are guilty of this. In fact, some of the very best sounding FM comes from low-budget, low-power radio stations often affilitated with a college. Perhaps they don't have the expensive equipment needed to mess up the sound quality. Those same stations often have a jazz format which makes them even more attractive for me.
Third, back in my earliest days, I was listening to rock on a new Washington DC station, and the music sounded so fantastic I even called up the station to ask what kind of cartridge they were using. I was expecting them to say it was a Shure V-15 (one of the top-line carts back then). Instead, they were using a lowly Shure M3D tracking at some ungodly VTF. in any event, it sounded great. Maybe it was just that all the equipment was brand new, and perhaps the records were as well.
Fourth, in the early 1990's, after many years without FM, I decided to try the darling tuner that all the mags were raving about, the Magnum Dynalab FT 101A. What a joke! The sound of that tuner was edgy and grainy. It only confirmed my suspicions that reviewers are extremely poor judges of sound quality. I have no doubt that more recent Dynalabs sound better but that experience was so disappointing that I wouldn't even consider another product from them.
Fifth and last, I bought a Fisher FM-100B a few years ago which had been restored by the Fisher Doctor, and I have to admit it does sound very nice. It doesn't rival my vinyl setup and it doesn't have the best low-noise performance in stereo, but the warmth, dynamics and overall fun factor remind me of the old Dyna FM-3 days. As far as I am concerned, vintage tube FM is where it's at for anyone interested in FM these days.
Dave |
>>02-02-11: Spatialking
Don't forget that radio stations play only the very best sources, too.<<
That is plain and simple BS. A longer version of this unbeatable short answer :-) The Radio Stations play from Harddisc, with limiters and compressors to bend the signal, that even in lowest quality area the song is acceptable. Has absolutely nothing to do with high End. More low end, or lowest end. Same is the thinking about Turntables used in the Stations, they must be superior....never, horrible, their ONLY goal was to accelerate fast from zero to 33,3, that was all. No one asked for sound "quality". Never. The ONLY area where really top equipment was (or is) used, are the transmitters which send the signal from one antenna to the next. Why do we like the sound sometimes when we listen? Well, there are some exceptions from the Radio Stations, the poor ones don't have that expensive technical equipment and they are the ones to go for. Next, most tuners, specially those "Reference" Tuners are good in getting a Signal, but they sound horrible. Really, really awful. Even with the best signal. Not much work was done for the output section (until today). Tuners which get lots of signals AND do sound good, are ultra rare. Is it worth it? Who knows, Radio is free music, you can get a lot of different impressions... |
