I ask guys selling expensive audio tweaks. They must know best, right? 🤔
How do you know when a stereo sounds good?
When do you know your system is pleasing to listen to? How do you conclusively prove to yourself that your system sounds good to you? How do you determine that you enjoy listening to music through your stereo? Do you have a suite of measurements that removes all shadow of a doubt that you are getting good sound, sound that you enjoy? Please share.
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Sorry but i dont put anything in the mouth of people and suppose nothing...Being polite is my policy.... Try to stick ONLY on argument...Anyway we are lucky to have an OP who knows some audio....I only make my experience known.... Thats all.... By the way my acoustic treatment an acoustic devices controls were made of discarded plumbers artefacts and other junk material.... Helmholtz was not bothered by price " tag" of his bottles being a scientist, me too, being not very loose with money..... Cost = peanuts... I am living proof that you could do your own job without buying ANYTHING... |
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To be PRECISE...
I dont pretend that my actual audio system in my controlled room is BETTER than any audio system here on Agon... NOT AT ALL.... I pretend ONLY and I KNOW that there is no comparison between my audio room BEFORE AND AFTER this acoustically treated and controlled acoustic implementation , even not optimally designed, but with my own devices, instead of the costlier more efficient work of an acoustician; there is no comparison anyway between my audio system BEFORE and AFTER my acoustical embedded controls with Helmholtz method... NO comparison at all....
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@jerryg123 , do you mean Ted Denney's group? That is the only audiophile hate group I am aware of on Facebook. |
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Ask a relevant question @boxer12 , and I will answer it. I played around with cables, etc. 25+ years ago, realized I was an idiot, and moved on. You? Nothing I observed was not easily explained and the usual explanation was bias. |
Well, at least you learned one thing... |
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Ted, look at it this way. If your system costs less than $100,000 you have a ways to go. I'm not joking. This is the only measure I can use to give you some idea on what I think it takes to build a system that I would be happy with. Your own happiness is up to you. It is more about values. How much are you willing to spend for better sound. None of us have systems that can not benefit from something somewhere. Technology always advances. |
i hear systems all the time that cost a lot but fail to impress. In fact audiophiles with “shiny box syndrome“, seldom have great sounding systems unless they also pay attention to set up/synergy. I’ve heard systems with modest speakers and electronics outperform six-figure systems, and by a wide margin. This is because while the millionaire audiophile may have all the best shiny boxes, oftentimes they fail to pay attention to set up whereas the guy on a budget, may not have the money for the best gear, but he pays attention to set up and so, gets good sound. Ultimately tuning on anything other than your own subjective enjoyment, like spending a lot of money on shiny boxes and assuming that will give great sound, seldom yields great results. And I’m not saying measurements are not important, they are, especially when pairing electronics with speakers, or dealing with low frequencies in a state of the art listening room, but ultimately if you’re not tuning based on what sounds good to you, you’re not going to get a system that sounds good to you. This should make sense to most successful audiophiles. Yours in music, Ted Denney III Lead Designer/CEO Synergistic Research Inc. |
hilde45 This will be my last post on this subject. You said: "That's not a question I can make sense of without some kind of science fiction scenario." Not being able to make sense of it sounds to me like it was meaningless to you. The whole point of my first reply to you was that I think you misconstrued the original question so construing it in another way that changes the intent and meaning of the question does no good. And you were the one that wrote "science fiction scenario" but can't elaborate on it? Now that seems very strange. |
First, I have to address @aewarren's post. Unless you like to whine, Adele will never be listenable. If I didn't speak the same language as Adele and didn't interpret every song as a whine fest, perhaps I may like her. Unfortunately, short of a brain injury that is not going to happen. @winnardt , i sort of see where @hilde45 is coming from, and perhaps it is the crux of Ted's post. Without a "reference" how do you know if your system is good or bad? And even with a reference, how do you know that the reference is good. From there, what is "good". Quite obviously one audiophiles good is another's crap. People will say "when it sounds like a live performance" ... what venue, where are you sitting, what was your mood, what was your concentration level. Even for a live recording, what is on the recording is never any more than what the recording/mixing engineer thought it should sound like with their system and their ears and brain. I will take a different tact. Few people have the tools or knowledge, and far fewer the inclination to do the work and understand what, for them, or even in general, "sounds good". You can only "explore" what sounds good, even to you, when you can control for variables. Some of the people who have done this over time we know very well, i.e. everyone knows who Floyd Toole is, perhaps the king of "measurements" in audio, but no one questions that because the result of his measurements is targeted at what we prefer, in general, subjectively. One could say the same about Nelson Pass who intentionally makes amplifiers that are not accurate, never really claims they are except for specific aspects, and who even communicates and markets as such to suit the tastes of his customers. Then there are people behind the scenes intentionally adding distortion and even noise because they know for their target audience, in general the result will be preferred. Floyd, Nelson, and the people behind the scenes learned all this by controlling variables (which includes mood and bias). I got a private message on my first day, suggesting a look at system pictures, as it would be eye opening. It was. I thought most hard core audiophiles would spend far more time and money on their listening space. I was wrong. How can these people know if their system sounds "good" if they don't even know what their system is capable of or what could be wrong with it? How do I know my system sounds good? I know the distortion of my speakers is low. I know the distortion of my electronics is low. I know the on-axis frequency response is flat. I know the off axis response is smooth and controlled and room response is close (but not exact to what Toole and others recommend). I tuned that to my liking, including too much time on acoustics and an unhappy handyman/carpenter. I suspect age may play into my preference for a more elevated high frequency response. Does this guarantee that my system "sounds good". No. Does my many audiophile buddies saying "wow" when they hear it suggest it sounds good? Possibly. Here is the crux, everything, including my turntable goes through DSP. I know, heresy! That means I can control everything. Want the system warmer, it is warmer. Want some nice tube distortion (also another form of warm), you got it. Want to center the image a bit, throw in some crosstalk. Want a perceived wider soundstage/concert hall, through in a touch of reverb. I still don't have that one where I want it yet. For me personally, it is normally pass-through, though I find with some music and my mood, the tube "simulation" sounds better to me. When I have friends over who are die hard tube fans, they are amazed that with a few buttons I can turn the system into something they associate with tubes. Some really like the touch of reverb, but I don't think it sounds right yet. How do I know my system sounds good? Because I built the best "reference" I could within budget and time limits, which gave me a system I could isolate variables with which allowed me to explore what I like and which sounded good to me, but which I could adapt to others preference or my moods. There are some things I want to try to give me even more flexibility, but time is never our friend. |
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I’m a music lover first and an audiophile second. For a long time this served me well, until we bought a house and moved from a flat. Prior to that I sat near field and I was happy listening to music. After moving to a much larger space the room became a huge part of the equation. To that end, and to the point of the OP’s questions, I initially relied on my own subjective opinion. And I knew it didn’t sound right. I needed new cables and power cords because of the changes in my equipment location, etc. So I tackled that first. Next I knew my cartridge was long in the tooth. As part of the upgrade, I enlisted an expert to analyze my new cart and set up my table using math, science, physics and subjective criteria. Then we moved on to the room and the main speaker interaction. Again, I went with the same expert who deployed a scientific, data-driven approach to optimizing the room as we did with the table. Ultimately, a combination of room treatments and a distributed bass array we’re deployed to optimize the sound. (I made other changes to isolation and cable/power cords.) Essentially, through this process which took about a year, I have seen the light in terms of combining data and measurements with the subjective to get closer than I’ve ever been to musical nirvana. (Okay "nirvana" is a leap but you get the idea.) I now have a rock-solid system built on data--starting at the source. My toes tapping is the subjective part that tells me, Eureka, that’s what a good-to-great stereo should sound like. But I know there is more to get out of my system. |
I used acoustic devices instead because i dont have any other means ... I am satisfied....Acoustic is underestimated...But someone can use the two for sure.... Passive material treatment and DSP... I use also a homemade mechanical equalizer inspired by Helmholtz resonators and diffusers....I am satisfied with these 40 and more grid of resonators and diffusers.... Location is the crux and fine tuning....According Hass law i directed the wavefrontd asymmetrically modifying it with different pressure zones with some resonators located around each speakers...My S.Q. satisfy me ....Nothing very costly even better will convince me to upgrade because when we listened music with a smile we are there... For me the goal is to appreciate music and all acoustical cues coming from each recording.... When all albums are interesting acoustically even the less well recorded YOU ARE THERE... My system value is under 500 bucks and is not the best at all but is one of the best quality /price ratio... Controlling vibrations, decreasing the electrical noise floor and passive material treatment and especially mechanical acoustical equalization of the room in relatiuon to the speakers was my way... i would be very curious to listen to your systrem... my best to you....
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@winnardt I could, but I tried and I have a day job so I'm tired of trying. Now that will be my last word on this topic. |
"When Adele becomes listenable. (It hasn’t happened yet but that’s my ultimate goal)"
In other words, it ain’t happening! For me : Adele = inhuman sonic Hell. It’s as if I’ve become afflicted with some terrible sonic disorder that plays havok with my sense of timing. Can be a most unsettling, if not a downright terrifying experience.
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Does labor count? Newbies time doesn't count as much but after a couple of decades every hour spent listening, evaluating and studying should easily add up to 100K pretty quickly. Or you could work at your real job and just purchase expensive stuff. Both methods are valid but one does not guarantee a better sounding system over the other and neither have anything to do with whether you are pleased with the result. |
I have. First one was a guy who bought only used Stereophile Class A components. Never in my life saw a more prestigious looking system sound so bad. I don’t mean not good either. I mean bad. His wife when they came over one time snuck up to me and said, "I could listen to this all night!" She was shocked a high end system could actually sound good. The next one was one of those guys who loves to rant about all cables being overpriced ripoffs and so he had a whole bench devoted to DIY cables. His stereo sounded so bad it actually gave me a headache. Couple times over the years he would buy something like a Tim DiParavincini preamp that was so good it made his system sound pretty good. Not all harsh and etched and analytical but actually like music. But he would "fix" that and the next time it would be headaches all over again. The third one was mine only it took me a long time to figure it out. This was 1980’s with Kenwood integrated, JBL L7, Magnavox CDB650, lamp cord, patch cords, black freebie rubber power cords. Worse, the thin lamp cord that passed for power cords back then. Only after buying some nice Linaeum speakers and a McCormack DNA1 amp when I hooked the JBL up to sell them it was like an ice pick in my ears. So people can get used to really bad sound, even convince themselves it is good. It happens. All these guys thought they had the bomb. Me too. For a while. Long, long ago.... |
As a relative newcomer to audiophile the most important characteristic to me is imaging, starting with strong center image. Next is clarity, I believe neutral tad warm. I'm working on understanding tone and timbre from midrange up to treble. I enjoy my Yamaha A2080 AVR to R3's and Ryhtmik sub but I believe the treble of the A2080 although clean and clear, may not be butter smooth. Sparkly with edges maybe, but it images well which is my primary attribute for good stereo. It seems my desktop electronics may have a slightly smoother treble, it being PC Tidal FLAC > USB input to Schiit Modi 3+ > Emotiva BassX A-100 > LS50 Meta (and I have tried the R3's there also).
I believe stereo is ultimately subjective, but how could an audiophile enjoy stereo if it did not begin with some semblance of quality imaging? It could be cold neutral imaging, to warm side of neutral imaging. But must have imaging. |
I had about a ten year period about 25 years back or so where I made impulse purchases without doing proper homework and my system sound quality suffered. Learned my lesson. I am pretty good at resisting impulse buys these days but the urge is always there to just go nuts sometimes so who knows what the future holds. |
The worst sounding system I ever heard as far as expensive gear that sounded bad as opposed to the cheap stuff that is typically more suspect was in a very high end NY shop. Luxman driving Peak Consult. Uggh. It was not good. Something probably awry but the salesman was happy to demo it. In another room there was a VAC/Magico setup that was the bees knees. Go figure! Different strokes? |
OUps! it is not a good indication about your audio system... Mine is low cost but i cannot even imagine listening music in my car....Yes sometimes i am lost in music in my car... (rarely because i dont listen music in my car often and anyway i did not drive anymore being retired) But i cannot be lost in sound in my car for sure... My best to you....
But this remind me of a friend, the more wealthy of my friends by a large margin, very wealthy, his BMW was the costlier one, and in it his audio system cost 5 figures, and we can be lost in music each time....lost in sound? Yes and no, it is too long time for me to be sure... Then either you are very wealthy or either your audio house system is very bad....Or you are more wealthy than i imagine and the 2 are fantastic....
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In what country? Here in America the left lane is for drones. The middle lane is for trucks. The right lane is for getting on and off. So what we do here, get on and swerve through the trucks to drive slow in the left lane. Then swerve through the trucks again to exit. We used to have signs posted Keep Right Except To Pass but no one did that and so being nice Americans we caved to the lowest common denominator. |
My home system is fantastic, I am comfortable, and drive a nice car, but you can get a great system in a family sedan as an upgrade these days. It was purely a comment about state of mind. When I am in the car, it is just me, the other cars, and my music. There is no computer drawing me to do some extra work to keep the company going, no treadmill telling me my butt should be smaller, nothing that needs to be cleaned or washed, no food to make, and I rarely make or answer calls in my car. It's my "safe space" :-) |
For sure you are right... I lack experience in car audio system installation... 😁😂😊
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How can I tell if my system sounds good? 1. Ask my spouse if the system could use some tweaking 2. Close your eyes, Lean forward in your chair. Take a listen 3. Listen carefully to the sound made while it hits the pavement from two stories up. 4. Gather some blind people to your listening room and perform a listening test. 5. Consult the 8 Ball!
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