No experience with the shorts but vertical position relative to the drivers does effect the tonality, so that would have to be a consideration. Plus, low end extension must be more limited with the short cabinet. MWTs would have all the advantages floor standing.
That would leave the shorts as more of a niche design perhaps for situations where floor space is just not available. You would probably also be more likely to add a sub, making the shorts more like a satellite design for full range sound. |
John at Ohm no longer recommends the Micro Shorts to his customers. When I talked to him about buying mine, he purposely steered me away from the shorts, and recommended the Talls. Personally, I think that the Shorts would be too close to the floor and overall sound would suffer. If anyone out there has a pair of the Shorts, I'm curious as to how they sound to you. I love my Micro Talls, and the speaker being on ear level sounds great, but when I stand up, the sound changes considerably. I suspect that would be the case with the Shorts, since they are already below ear level even in a seated position. I could be wrong, Anyone got experience with the Shorts? |
I guess it's an Ohm Fest regarding responses, and I have to chime in as well. I bought the Ohm Micro Walh Talls because as a military spouse, I move a lot and have to plan on small rooms.
I feel the MWT's work extrememly well, especially for near-field listening. My current room is maybe 13 by 16 (I can't remember exactly), and they're great. But I bought them instead of the S-100 because chances are they'll be in a 10 by 10 box at some point.
Another good possibility is the Micro Walsh Shorts. Those along with the Micro Walsh Walls are on my list of possibilities if I want to expand beyond 2.1 in a small room. |
I have a very vanilla 12X12X8 office/listening room. Concrete foundation with thin carpeting, drywall, typical office furnishings including couch to listen from (photo in my system posting).
Ive tried B&W floorstanders, Maggies, Triangle and Dynaudio monitors, and large and small OHM Walshes in that room.
The smaller full range OHMs currently there work best both in terms of sound quality and overall utility in a small/cramped room, followed by in descending order of fit Dynaudio or Triangle monitors, Maggies, B&W floorstanders (P6s)and lastly big OHMs (just too big for such a small room though they sound great). |
it is only the bass response of the speaker that will cause problems, so if you're willing to do either of the following, it will greatly expand your options and ability to get a larger speaker to sound good in that room:
1) room treatments (bass traps in corners, all the way to the ceiling)
2) Rives Audio PARC (an eq for bass frequencies) or similar type product (Tact, etc)
if your budget is flexible, buy a larger speaker & have the room measured after setting up. determine where the nodes are, and address using either 1 or 2 above. the PARC is quite flexible and will remove room nodes where you have too much bass by targeting specific frequencies.
you will have too much bass in that room unless you address it. just dont be a passive victim; work for good sound, and you can definitely get it, using full size speakers in there.
(my room is 11*15 and i use Wilson WPs in it w/ no trouble, but take a look at my system pics---room treatments everywhere. if i did not have the ability to have room treatments everywhere, i'd have the PARC. if i had neither, it would sound terrible, which i know from experience). |
No doubt I'd put a pair of OHM Micro Walsh Talls in there, build around that and be done. They are explicitly designed to go into small rooms in particular.
I use slightly larger OHM Walsh 2s with OHM Walsh 100 series 3 drivers in a 12X12 room. These work to the max in the room, but I suspect smaller and less expensive MWTs (or their shorter brothers, the Micro Walsh Shorts in some cases) would suffice. |
Ohm Micro Walsh talls. I have a 11X11' room with 9'ceilings and it sounds amazing. It's all the speaker that you'll ever need for a room that size |
I hope you don't mind that I answer your question indirectly, but I have some advice and recommendations that I feel are beneficial for your particular situation:
Consider using the Lyngdorf RP-1 digital sound processor.
This unit uses advanced eq to correct uneven response from speakers in less-than-ideal situations. Considering the equipment you use, I guess you might be apprehensive about inserting a digital processor into the middle of your audio chain, but I'm pretty sure you'd be far happier with the RP-1 than without it.
review: http://www.dagogo.com/Lyngdorf-RP1.html
You should read Cardas Audio's article on speaker placement in square rooms: http://www.cardas.com/content.php?area=insights&content_id=33&pagestring=Room+Setup+8
Consider room treatments, especially bass traps.
As far as reference quality, top of the line, small-room-friendly speakers go, you may want to audition the following: Magico Mini II, Merlin TSM-MMe/MXe, AAD 7001i, Usher BE718, and possibly the Silverline SR17.5.
If you crave the deep, powerful bass that bookshelf speakers can't provide (even in small rooms), a pair of subwoofers would sound more balanced than only one. I read that the Axiom EP400 subwoofer (8" sealed) is more articulate than the JL Audio Fathom F113 (13" sealed), although the former doesn't go as deep or hit nearly as hard as the latter. Regardless, I suspect that the 10" JL Audio Fathom F110 is just as articulate as the Axiom EP400. For ultimate speed and accuracy (and price) the Wilson Benesch Torus is another good option, although it hardly provides half the slam of the Fathoms and it takes up more space. Of course, the Lyngdorf RP-1 would allow you to seamlessly integrate any of these subwoofers into your system.
I hope I've helped. |
Sorry to go off-topic, but in light of the last post, I am compelled to comment about the Absolute Sound. Buyer beware - since resurrected a few years ago, its reviews have become overwhelmingly positive, and positive in a uniformly over-the-top way. Take any two or three consecutive issues and read the reviews - pay no attention to that man behind the curtain. |
Large speakers are designed for large rooms, and small speakers are designed for small rooms, in general. Although you can use a large speaker in a small room, often you will have an overload situation with too much bass. If you aren't that critical of a listener, as the other posters say, you can use just about any speaker. If you are interested in the highest level of sound quality, look at the Unifield Model 3, just rated by The Absolute Sound as one of the best sounding speakers at the RMAF. The UniField Model 3 is an expensive speaker designed for small rooms. Read other posts on this speaker here: http://www.audiocircle.com/circles/index.php?topic=60302.0 |
I have owned and auditioned both the Arro and the Ohm Micro Walsh Talls in a smallish room. Both are wonderful in their own ways, but I'm with Mapman on this one: the Ohms are ome of the great bargains of high-end audio and well worth a risk-free audition! They are also very easy to place. I found the Totems fussier. |
The biggest speaker that I would consider that could work well, if you have 2 corners available for them, are Klipschorns.
I would love to try them in my 12X12 room. Someday I may. |
Search the forums for threads on speakers that work well when placed directly against the wall. |
as i said , the very first response, arro totem with storm sub...at 1100 for both on audiogon, no brainer, i tell you the arro in that room may not need a sub...you could add that later....750 for arro totem ,,,.yes....dwhitt |
this is why i love ag....good honest opinion (and fairly price highend audio/folks to buy stuff I dont use)...many sales people have been recommending many big speakers for this room. I have been an easy target as it's the only room in the house i can use a floorstander. I actually have a 20x20 room with 15 ft ceiling...but due to the built-ins in the room..and my wife..i cant use floorstanders so i have a pair peakconsult princess (just the monitor) with a REL sub which i love...so i was hoping that i could upgrade my virgos to a more lifelike, thicker sounding floorstander..obviously i have no intention of buying a speaker that will not perform well in this space..thanks for the advice.... |
01-29-09: Raquel
The other posters are way too polite - big speakers sound like shit in too-small rooms. I guess the post I've written earlier isn't too polite either? :- 01-27-09: Ryder
A large speaker in a small room often sounds like crap most of the time. |
My floor standing omni OHMS, which have the better and more extended low end, in my 12X12 rooms do not have bass issues.
My Dynaudio monitors tend to be more sensitive in that area.
It seems to be less of an issue with the Walsh design from my experience. |
Raquel is right on the mark. Yes you would be nuts to put the Revel Salons or any full range speaker in that room without any bass adjustability. Another thing to consider is that you would have to sit in the nearfield. On speakers with that many drivers you need to sit farther away so the drivers can integrate properly. I guess you could use some form of room eq to tame the bass, but unless they sound good in the nearfield it still wouldn't work. |
The other posters are way too polite - big speakers sound like shit in too-small rooms. I will, however, add that there is a big difference between Salon 2's and the other speakers you mentioned. Salons have prodigious bass capabilities - while they do not have the spl limits and extension in the bass of the physically larger originals Salons (I owned that speaker for three years), they still have bass that few speakers can equal. The Cremonas and Reference 3A Grand Veenas, on the other hand, are more in the nature of midsize speakers, but with dual woofers, so again, they will be a lot for a room of that size.
More importantly, you have a square room - you want a speaker with adjustable bass or monitors with a subwoofer. |
"so i'm nuts to be looking at SAlon2s, CremonaMs and Reference 3A Grand Veenas?"
For a room that size, big speakers are overkill. Good big speakers will not sound any better than the many good smaller speakers mentioned here, properly set up, will cost more, and will likely not even sound as good.
Is that nuts? Its your call. |
so i'm nuts to be looking at SAlon2s, CremonaMs and Reference 3A Grand Veenas? I presntly have Virgo IIIs...which is basically a monitor...... |
Hey...I mentioned totem arro's! |
You're getting some good advice and some terrible advice, which is what happens when one shouts out a question in the mall parking lot that is Audiogon.
The square room, even with the 6 ft. vent, creates a special problem because of the extreme room modes it is probably creating (exact effects depend upon furnishings, room construction, and other factors). Simply put, it will cause some bass frequencies to be exaggerated and others to be deemphasized. To address this, you will need a speaker with adjustable, powered bass, or monitor speakers augmented by a subwoofer, along with a lot of patience to try various set-ups in your room.
The room is also small, which rules out many midsize and all large speakers. Putting a large speaker in a small room that is also square is a recipe for absurdity (Salon 2's, which have prodigious bass, in a room that measures 11' x 11' x 8' would be an terrible move, as would Studio 2's).
One good, reasonably sized speaker with adjustible, powered bass is the Vandersteen Quatro (there are of course others). There are a lot of good monitors and subs out there. If you like the Revel sound, Gems and a Revel B15 would work and make you happy. |
"A huge speaker in a room that size, and square besides would be a waste of money and time. "
No doubt. |
How big is the doorway? You could put Elipsa's in there but it would be a waste. I would think you would be best served by a sealed box monitor that doesn't go much below 60-80 hz and use a high quality sub that offers a lot of eq adjustability like some of the Velodynes. A huge speaker in a room that size, and square besides would be a waste of money and time. |
Great point Dwhitt - Arros are great, especially with Jazz on vinyl, the OP's stated affliction of choice. Would also throw in a suggestion for one of the Kef monitors - I think the XQ series unless you plan to spend way more for the much better Reference. I owned some of their older low end ones and they were pretty amazing for the price in small rooms. Another to consider, is Usher series, they tend to throw a great soundstage in cramped quarters, not an easy feat. |
no one is talking about the arro from totem, what a geat speaker with such a small footprint and big sound stage and depth.... |
The problem in a small room is low frequency response. A small sealed monitor will work because there won't be a lot of bass. Otherwise, a full-range transmission line speaker will work. You will have bass, although you should have bass traps in a room that small regardless of the speakers, and a TL speaker will be easier to place than a ported full-range speaker. The Salk Sound SongTower or Veracity QWT would be good choices. |
Many British monitors work well in a room that size. Believe me I know, I have a 12' X 11' room.
Much has been discussed here on Audiogon about small rooms. Do a search, you will find plenty of info.
Monitors definately work best, sub not likely needed.
A partial list:
Linn
Spendor
Neat
PMC
Joseph Audio
ERA Designs
Aerial
Audio Note
All of the above make nice monitors that will work |
You should keep the speakers as small as possible and add a sub later only if needed.
I use OHM 100s and Dynaudio monitors in two 12X12 rooms in my house.
The largely omni OHMS work best. They are small footprint full range floorstanders. Being largely omnidirectional, they tend to fill teh room with sound rather than blast it at you, which is of benefit in a small room. They are also less fussy about location for smooth response than box designs in a square room.
OHM Micro Walsh Talls have an even smaller footprint than the 100s and are recommended for nearfield listening conditions as you will have in a room that size.
They can be auditioned in-house for several months. You really have nothing to loose.
www.ohmspeakers.com for more info. |
Since one wall of your room isn't really a wall, but an opening into a much larger room, I wouldn't consider your room to be small. Much depends on the layout of the speakers and your listening position in the 11x11 area where the system will reside. |
I agree the main issue is how far you can get from the walls. I have a small room myself, and one set of rear-ported speakers (Soliloquy 5.3i) clearly overwhelmed it. A much larger rear-ported speaker does a lot better! (Usher CP 6311). So I guess it's the speaker design too. Go for front ported if you can |
Will you be able to place the speakers properly away from the walls and still sit far enough away from them for the separate drivers to cohere? You can't sit but so close to physically large multi-driver systems and not hear the individual drivers as individuals drivers.
I'm not even going to mention that your room is a square and the problems that will present for smooth bass response. |
Some speakers are designed to be listened to at a greater distance than other speakers . Your question does not have a one size fits all answer...pun intended !
Happy Tunes . |
I have responded in another thread on the same issue in that I am a big fan of small speakers(either small towers or bookshelf speakers on stands) + subwoofer in a small room. A large speaker in a small room often sounds like crap most of the time. Having said that, I have seen a guy having the Marten Coltrane floorstanders in a 9'x13'x8' room which is an exceptional case. However, that room has got some real serious treatments and planning gone into it as all the wall surfaces which include the ceiling have been treated.
Dgad's advice may only come in useful if the speakers are meant to cater for a strong 100,000 crowd of a large rock concert. |
Depends how big the door is. |
how big a speaker can you put in an 11 x 11 room?
You will want to stick with small monitors + a small sub with that sized room. If you go with a big speaker, it just means you are going to have big problems in that very small space. |
|
My room is a 11X12X9'ceiling(huge)and I have Revel 50as+a revel 50a centre speaker,I'll put it this way,
I have four component racks(full 3X7bssts+2X4Bssts,cdr,cdp,clearaudio championII TT,2-Torus units,Arcam prepro av-8 and Arcam-139 dvd,and 2X Velodyne DD-15s.the racks take up the one wall with just enough room for the mains,I have one sub almost halfway along one wall and the other almost behind the couch.I like what I'm getting for sound,but I'm sure with a bigger room it would be way better.when we do get a bigger house,I know I'll be ready. |
Thanks....I presently have Virgo IIIs which do a nice job, though, i have become a huge fan of the Elipsas and the Revel SAlon2s so I have been ready to upgrade...but I dont think either will lend to the room...though I am a big fan of nearfield listening..the Elipsas are warm...in a room this small they may be a bit heavy... |
If you size your choice accordingly, you could easily reposition your speakers to voice out the 6ft opening when entertaining in that area. Mobility of previously mentioned sub unit (great suggestion BTW) would be helpful too since some feel a sub can be very directional above an 80Hz x-over. Practicality of gear location and cable runs will come into play of course. If there is any chance the system may end up in the bigger room someday, that may seriously influence your choice of speaker. |
I have a 10x10 room with 9 ft ceilings and am using Vienna Acoustics Beethoven Baby Grands . This switch to a smaller room and nearfield listening is new to me. Having less side room reflection has brought much more musical enjoyment.
Good luck
Vienna Acoustics
Beethoven Baby Grands
W x H x D 8.5/40/14.75
2x6 woofers
6" Midrange
1.1" Tweter |
Most any Totem would disappear even in that size room. Good call. I think you'll get the best from the Model 1 Sig, if your budget allows... but whether the Arro, Staff or Hawk, you should be good. |
look into the totem arro speakers, i used them in a jazz system in a small room and they did a great job, especially with good equipment, they like power and you have that...they are very neutral, look aat my jazz system..dwhitt |
You CAN put in any size that will physically fit. I knew someone who lived in a rented room and used Tannoy GRF speakers. They were so big he had to move one to go out his door. The real question is how you like to listen to music. If you like near-field listening large is fine. If you like a more distant perspective use smaller speakers. Of course you can sit closer to the smaller ones too. I would consider a good mini monitor and powered sub. They are less likely to overwhelm the room than a pair of large ones. I have B&W 805s and REL but there are many alternatives. They are more likely to work that a pair of large speakers but big can work. The small + sub is just easier to adjust to match the room. |
