I hope it's OK for me to add that I have a Truth Pre for sale on AC.
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=160754.0
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=160754.0
Hornshoppe "the Truth" preamp - any opinions?
"The Truth" changes the paradigm in Reference Line Stages, literally. Its existence has even forced me to remove a "Direct Connection" in "Class A", because such a choice no longer makes any rational sense to me. In the end, "The Truth" is effectively a "direct connection" with no sonic downsides, and with the ability to drive any amplifier load and/or length of cable, while allowing any source to be heard at its very best. With the exception of extra gain, an audiophile can't ask for more than that. I realize that this may all sound "too good to be true", but it isn't.
-- Arthur Salvatore http://www.high-endaudio.com/RC-Linestages.html
This is high praise indeed, he likes it better than Coincident's Line Stage which is saying something, was wondering if someone else has heard it and compared it to other active line stages (am a big believer in active, though currently using AMR DP-777 DAC as my pre)
-- Arthur Salvatore http://www.high-endaudio.com/RC-Linestages.html
This is high praise indeed, he likes it better than Coincident's Line Stage which is saying something, was wondering if someone else has heard it and compared it to other active line stages (am a big believer in active, though currently using AMR DP-777 DAC as my pre)
104 responses Add your response
Hi guys, just my personal experience. I followed Mr, Salvatore's advice re: the weight on top of The Truth. In my experience, the result was a deadening and closed in essence to the sound. For me, the best result was with the lid completely removed. But, since leaving it open full time seemed a little dangerous; l settled with the lid on but screwed in very very lightly. This result, l arrived at with the system on while varying the degree of screw torque. These four screws are found on the top outer side edges of the pre. They basically hold the top plate but mine are not tightened. I also slightly loosened the bottom screws of the bottom plate that hold the boards. They were torqued tight originally. ln my opinion, too tight. As soon as these bottom screws were loosened slightly, the sound relaxed and opened up. While listening and playing around with the 'tightness' of these screws, you can actually tune the sound signature. The Truth sits on a two inch slate slab that rests on a custom two tiered, two inch thick bubinga wood audio stand that uses one and a half inch threaded rods. Mr. Salvatore was the inspiration for me to order The Truth unheard. I read a lot of his writing and find much truth in his discoveries and beliefs audio-wise. I agree that this pre is a revelation. This is my experience. Please don't hang me for it. YMMV. |
@charles1dad yes, I have one silver input and two coppers. Copper on both outputs. I'll check my spl (just using an uncalibrated Android app unfortunately) tonight and see where things fall apart. Pulled it out last night and things were still good in the 60-70 range. I took the truth out of the path yesterday and it once again improved things to put it back in. I was kind of hoping that wouldn't be the case so I could put the money elsewhere, but it looks like it'll have to stay. |
@charles1dad Regarding SPL levels... again, listening with peaks right around 70db (C-weighted) is very good, peaks in the 60s is good, and things start to fall apart when peaks are only in the 50s. Perhaps that's not totally surprising given that my noise floor is 40dbs when it's "quiet" and around 45dbs when the fridge is running back in the kitchen. |
Hi Chris, In regard to the PRE low SPL performance, those stated SPLs seem pretty good to me as peaks of 60db is definitely low level listening levels (and you say the SQ remains good). With 60 db peak this would suggest that the ’average volume would be in the 50s db range. This is a very soft volume level (at least for me). Good to read that the Truth is working out well for you. Charles |
In my system The Truth did not sound as good as a $350 Schiit Saga. The Saga can be used passive or the tube buffer output can be switched on. Either mode sounded better than the Truth. I also compared with a few other preamps here. |
The Saga is simply too inexpensive to be considered a true audiophile product, as are many items sold by Schiit. I have a Freya that's also cursed by its low cost, and I think sounds better than other preamps I've compared it to including those that I own, and when schlepping it to a friends house for a little "shoot-out" we both noted it sounded surprisingly every bit as good as his reference series ARC preamp...not the most scientific comparison, but there ya go. Too inexpensive...I'll buy a Saga when putting together a second system in my vacation house (later this year, still shopping for the house) ...no problemo...or maybe another Freya... |
@exdmd I actually ended up returning my truth preamp. After a few weeks of trying different inputs and I went back to my source driving the amps directly and ended up liking it better. In the end, I decided the money was better spent elsewhere. Ed was a great person to work with though. Haven't tried any other preamps, although I do look around periodically. I should reach out to the Denver audio community and see if anyone wants to do some gear auditioning so I can see if one would actually improve my system enough to be worth it... |
I own The Truth and it is just fantastic. I does take a full week of playing 24/7 to break in and sound its best. At first it was a tad closed in, overly warm and a little dull sounding. After some 150 hours of play time this unit has just amazed me. So utterly balanced top to bottom with absolutely no glare or vestige of noise. My unit does not have a selector as I only use one input. I cannot stress enough or even overstate how revelatory this piece is. I have owned many top end active preamps costing up to $9000 new. I have built some great tube preamps and upgraded/modified quite a few good ones over the years. I have also owned the Placette, Lightspeed and Tortuga passives. These passives showed promise, but always left me wanting as they lacked body or meat on the bones weight. The Truth has all of it and is certainly the best Preamp have heard to date. Just be patient with break-in and enjoy. Ed offers a trial period and the unit costs less than most high end cables :) |
Well @thaluza that is a great question. It sure does not need any upgrades to please me, but every piece of gear I own has my signature somewhere in it. Ha! Not much to do as the design is simple and so unique. I plan to wire the input and output with Neotech silver/gold wire as I love the sound of it. I will also upgrade the RCA jacks and IEC to Furutech. I will wire up the power supply with Duelund Polycast stranded and tinned copper wire. I plan to replace the eight 470uf 35v Nichicon HV caps with the wonderful Audio Note Kaisei. That would be it. Will it really improve on an already great unit? I think it will a bit. The cost is reasonable. No rush. I will enjoy it as is. I will put some nice wooden knobs on the front to make it look high end 🙂 |
I’ve had "The Truth" in my system for a couple of months now driving a First Watt SIT 3 into Cube Nenuphars. I love it. It does everything and way more that I had hoped for. I have always sought a purist approach. I listen to 90% acoustic music, classical, jazz, bluegrass, folk. My electric music tastes run to Steely Dan or old Santana. Clean beautiful sounds. My system does not play grungy distortion well. The Truth is pure spring water. It’s quirky but brilliant. The designer builder is Ed Schilling. I spoke with him extensively as he was building my preamp. He has very strong right wing views. He actually asked me if I wanted to cancel my order because of his beliefs. I live in Texas, these views are nothing foreign to me. I wouldn’t dream of throwing the baby out with the bath water by denying myself what is no doubt the best preamp for me because the guy who builds it has extreme views. I can’t afford the Bespoke Audio. I considered the Emia then went with Salvatore’s wisdom. Schilling believes he has been blackballed by the audio media due to his beliefs. I guess this is possible but I think general acceptance of The Truth preamp has more to do with first its niche market as as a no gain pre and then its funky diy appearance. BTW Emia does the same thing. Ugly on the outside, superlative sound comes from the inside. Emia probably doesn’t sell a lot of finished autoformer preamps. I would guess Emia’s main income is from the diy community. Slagle has a cool factor that Schilling doesn’t seem interested in. To wrap up, I think tribalism is a problem, not a solution. I believe we are all in this together and any solution that is a real solution has to include everyone as an equally valid voice. Condemning each other for opinion will never solve anything. Ed Schilling designed one of the worlds great audio solutions. If it were in a shiny box it could easy cost several times more. "The Truth" preamp is an integral part of my grail system. |
@mrubey " To wrap up, I think tribalism is a problem, not a solution. I believe we are all in this together and any solution that is a real solution has to include everyone as an equally valid voice. Condemning each other for opinion will never solve anything. Ed Schilling designed one of the worlds great audio solutions. If it were in a shiny box it could easy cost several times more. "The Truth" preamp is an integral part of my grail system." |
Thank you Grannyring for the response. I am looking forward to your impressions of the Neotech wire. As for me, I went with the Horneshoppe’s offering of copper wiring and am quite pleased with it. I was thinking about trying wbt jacks for my 3 inputs and 2 outputs, but the cost of the upgrade would be 50% of what I paid for the preamp itself. Perhaps I will look into the Furutech jacks as a cost effective alternative. |
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A friend of mine had one of these at one time and spoke highly of it. I like that Ed keeps looking to improve it with different iterations over the years. Anybody know the current price of the T4? Bill, does your Truth preamp have remote and if so how is the smoothness of the attenuation? Does it allow for small increments in volume? -Tom |
I 'upgraded' my Truth with 0.5 Duelund silver naked input and output wire, Audio Note RCA input and output jacks, and an Elma selector switch. Each change has made a very noticeable and welcome difference. There was nothing really wrong with the original, but this does take it to a much higher level. |
I will not touch the caps per Ed’s advice. Just the wire and RCA jacks. Ed is pretty adamant that changing out the caps will make no difference based on his testing and design. I must say the unit sounds wonderful so I will trust his comments. The unit is really a unique system that no other preamp is like. It is a unique design and Ed is rightly proud of it. |
@t_ramey. My unit has remote. The volume changes very little from start all the way up to say 11 o’clock on the dial. The volume then ramps up quickly from 11:30-1:30 where most of the volume increase takes place. While this is a pretty narrow range the remote allows slight increases in volume making it very useable. I have no issues with it. Once you get used to how it responds you will have no trouble setting it to volume you want. It is not stepped, but a nice smooth continuous pot. |
Charles, After trying many amps with the Lyngdorf I found one that bettered the 2170 as a stand alone unit. The Clayton amp. I love this amp. If offered more dynamic impact, improved natural tone, greater bass and mid bass foundation as well as a seductive, warm and inviting presentation that hooked me. Adding The Truth just sounded even better. It stripped away all noise and is so even handed. The combo is a joy to listen to relaxing my ears and mood 😊 |
@grannyring I was actually referencing the Clayton. I had a Truth preamp, but for whatever reason didn't end up liking it all that much. Didn't really do anything wrong, but it wasn't the revelation it appears to be in other systems. I ended up buying a Don Sach's 6SN7-based preamp and find that it improves everything about my source. In pre-amp land, I'm still interested in trying Supratek and Backert Labs (and everything else, obviously). |
I just finished upgrading the rca jacks, iec, adding Soundcoat damping throughout and Duelund tinned, stranded copper wiring. I have to say the improvement was very noticeable. I was not sure it would make that much of a difference, but it really has. Based on this I am going to upgrade the SMPS to a nice LPS. Improved openness and resolution with better imaging and larger stage size. This improvement is easy to hear within minutes. |
@theophile, I see you use a turntable. What was your experience with the quality of sound coming through your speakers with your turntable. And what phono preamp did you use? Did the Truth preamp reproduce both the phono preamps and turntables inherent sounds? |
@Theophile, You are one the few folks on the audio forums that has mentioned his front end is a turntable and using The Truth preamp in his system and I’m writing you to see what phono preamps you may have used as I could not find anyone mentioning what phono preamp they used with the Truth preamp.
Just so you know my current phono preamp is the Parks Audio Budgie with (2) Kevin Deal’s of Upscale Audio Telefunken E88CC/6922 Platinum Grade, Cryoed, matched pair of NOS Telefunken vacuum tubes which I have to say really pushed the best out of my Budgie to get transparency, depth, wide soundstage, and dynamic range and with an added 3 Dimensional sound quality I have never heard before, especially with a phono preamp that cost so little. The 6922’s actually cost more than the Budgie preamp itself! But that was ok with me. My question is do you think my Budgie will be able to perform with the Truth preamp? Also know that my phono interconnects in are shielded Duelund 20GA with KLEI™Absolute Harmony Plugs and the phono interconnects out are Duelund 20GA unshielded and have the same KLEI™Absolute Harmony Plugs. So I think I may have already got lucky with synergy with the Truth preamp as I’ve read on agon that a members sound with the Truth preamp improved with the addition of the Duelunds. And as a side note my speaker wire are Duelund 12GA and I hope the synergy is there too. Thanks Theophile (or anyone else) for anything you can add or help me with on this.
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I had a very fun time comparing two first class preamps. My modified Truth preamp vs Coincident Statement preamp. Both sound fantastic! I listened to both over some 10 hours. Here are the details of each unit. Coincident Statement Line-stage: Upgraded Psvane WE tubes, SR Black fuse. The Truth - SR Black fuse, separate chassis dual linear power supply for the +/- 15vdc. The dual LPS powers each buffer board separately. I used a nice over-spec’d RCore tranny. All internal wire and umbilical cord made with Duelund tinned and stranded copper wire. Upgraded Vampire RCA jacks. All 8 caps on the buffer boards upgraded to Audio Note Kaisei. Soundcoat dampening in both chassis units. I find my upgraded Truth superior to stock after carefully listening step by step along the upgrade path. I did not do it all at once. The upgraded unit is simply better sounding in every sonic parameter important to me. Purity, natural tone, dynamics, stage size, ease and control when turned up, bass impact as well as mid-bass weight and body. The Coincident preamp is a wonderful sounding preamp. It took me by surprise the first few hours as I did not expect this level of greatness. It is so beautiful sounding with a delicate airy sound that at the same time is dynamic and lively. Tone is spot on and the weight and body from the lower bass to mids was intoxicating even at lower to moderate listening levels. Notes seemed to hang on forever in a good way. I love this preamp! I did not want to take it out of my system. Easily one of the very best preamps I have ever heard. It reminded me of how important a preamp is to a great system. It just pulls it all together. My Truth preamp was slightly different sounding, but just as enjoyable. The Truth had faster and better defined bass. The tone and purity were perhaps a tad better than the Coincident. It was close however. The Truth is certainly quieter both operationally and musically. It has a spooky absence of noise one doesn’t realize is there with other preamps. The Coincident served up more mid bass weight and body that I found quite satisfying. I do know The Truth imparted less coloration here, but I have to admit l liked this coloration! I had a moderate ground loop hum that I could not remedy with the Coincident that was certainly annoying. Too bad really. I also found the volume knobs clunky feeling and lacking in the ability to fine tune volume level. Needs more steps! I think the attenuator system was improved in the latest version. Love to hear one of these! Which one did I prefer? Both! I love both. I will keep my Truth and not buy Coincident for reasons of practicality. I play music 10-12 hours per day and tubes may not be the best option. I was reminded of the often times finicky or fussy nature of tube gear with the ground loop hum that I found annoying. The Truth is as quiet as a mouse. The Truth is just easier on my ears. Very hard to put this in words folks. Music sounds less forced and just “happens” before you with my Truth. My Truth sounds so good that I can’t let it go, but if I cheated on her it would be with the Coincident Statement! |
Bill, thanks for your careful A/B of my Coincident CSL with your Truth. A couple of comments for those trying to decide between these two fine choices. In my system, I am not currently hearing any ground loop issues. The Coincident is driving my Atma-Sphere M-60 amps via 10 M balanced ICs. Anyone who is looking for a great pre that will drive long ICs would do well to consider the CSL. I did have a ground loop issues when the Coincident CSL was driving Coincident Frankenstein amps, but engaging the ground lift switches on the amps largely eliminated the issue. I have a feeling the CSL behaves better using balanced in and balanced out than with single ended. Getting the most out of the CSL is all about the tubes. The Psvane WE replicas really elevate the performance of this preamp. It is a completely different beast with these tubes vs the Psvane Hi-Fi or Shuguang tubes. The volume controls are indeed clunky. One should expect better for a piece in this price range. I may send mine back for the upgrade to MK II. There are times when a finer gradation between steps would be nice. As far as tube life, I got about 4 years out of my first set of WE's. I bought my current set from Coincident. Mr. Blume selects tubes that match the demands of the CSL, which he claims extends the expected lifetime. |
The CSL with the Franks can be very good when paired with a very high efficiency speaker. I really enjoyed them paired with my 94dB efficient Coincident Triumph Extreme II monitors, especially with the Elrog 300B tubes which unfortunately don't hold up to the demands of the Franks. But honestly, I enjoy the CSL paired with my Atma-Sphere M-60's just as much, maybe more, and 60WPC with low distortion just works better with anything but the most efficient speakers. The Franks just couldn't drive my 92.5 dB efficient Coincident Super Victory II's. Too much distortion, and I don't typically listen at high levels. |
Hi Bill, Thank you for taking the time to post your clear and detailed listening impressions of what are excellent line stages via your home audio system. The stock Truth line stage has received universal praise so I can only imagine how wonderful your upgraded/modified Truth must sound. Bill I bet your system sounds fantastic! In my very humble opinion I summit that both of these line stages are genuinely world class components that really can compete with any top tier line stages regardless of price. You could place either of these two into audio systems of high pedigree and they would hold there own. When a product is capable of achieving superb purity, tone and dynamics it’s very unlikely for it to embarrassed by any competing component. Certainly one may prefer another line stage but the Truth or the Coincident will not be outclassed. I was one of the very early (October 2009) buyers of the Coincident Statement Line Stage . Over 10 years later I’m probably even more happy and impressed with its sound quality mated to my 10 year old (September 2009) Frankenstein MK II mono blocks. The latest version of these 2 components are most likely even better. That’s fine but i’m staying put 😊. To the other Bill (brownsfan) Yep, you must have the proper speaker match, no getting around that fact. The older Coincident Eclipse lne of speakers were an easier load than your current Victory speakers. I’m very familiar Atma-sphere MA1 mono blocks and no doubt the CSL would pair with Atma-sphere amplifiers in splendid fashion. |
Yes, great review @grannyring There seems to be quite a few preamps these days with a loyal following. Don Sachs, Supratek, Aric Audio, and The Truth to name a few. I recently got to hear the Don Sachs and it is a superb preamp that was better than my current pre. My friend who owns the DS used to have a TRL Dude which he says is still the best preamp he has ever owned and regrets selling it. He also had an original or first iteration of The Truth. Grannyring, I know you used to have the smaller version of the Dude if I recall. The Truth has a great price and I like that it can be upgraded and Ed is always looking to improve things. I think he’s on version 4 I believe? Any chance somebody has heard all of these preamps or come close? Or how about at least hearing the early version of The Truth and a current version and how they differ? |
Hello everyone, I’ve been away from the Agon scene for a while and it’s nice to come back and find such a cordial and informative thread. You can add me to the list of The Truth users......and lovers. It’s hard to believe that such an ugly duckling of a product can help produce such beautiful music. I’m tempted to have a nice wood enclosure built to put over it, with an opening for the remote sensor.......but then I come to my senses and realize it’s fine just the way it is. Bill, thanks for sharing your modification information and observations of their improvements. Not sure I trust my diy skills enough to try doing so myself but it sure is enticing. Did you try messing around with the LED light inside the unit to widen the VC range? Worked wonders for me. Seems like many here have gone the high efficiency speaker/lower powered amp route and when doing so stellar preamps like The Truth and CSL go a long way in preserving the purity, tone and dynamics with their black background and transparency. In other words, getting out of the way and allowing the music to flow forth. IMO one can’t go wrong with either The Truth or CSL. I do like the convenience of a remote VC, not sure if the CSL has that option but it sure is the better looking piece of gear. Happy New Years......Tom |
Nice review Grannyring. Tom, I'm glad and somewhat relieved the Truth worked out for you, as you had PM'd me before your purchase and asked for my input. Whew! I also compared the Truth (in stock form) with the CSL. They are both top notch. My amps are Coincident Frankensteins and my speakers are 99db efficient. To me, the Truth sounded a bit more alive and real. I noticed this particularly with jazz music, so I kept it and sold my CSL. I have really fallen in love with jazz ever since I got the Truth. I was not fond of the dual volume controls of the CSL. I appreciate the finer gradation of volume that the Truth offers. The Truth’s remote volume control is a good bonus. Lastly, the fact that the Truth is smaller, and that it is only one box versus the two boxes of the CSL, helped clear space in my rack. I recently installed WBT input and output jacks and it was a worthy upgrade. If anything, the WBT jacks do a much better job of securely holding my cables. I was having an issue with some of my cables not maintaining a tight connection with the Truth, which led to occasional image fuzziness and images shifting right or left. All too often, I was finding myself wiggling my cables to try to get a better connection, which only temporarily solved the problem. The WBT’s have been a permanent solution and are highly recommended. I will be upgrading the IEC inlet soon. I never had a ground loop issue with the CSL. It was a solid and reliable performer. |
T-ramey. I have owned all 3 versions of the TRL Dude. In addition, with the help of Paul the designer, I built a super Dude tricked out with all the best parts. Recently, I build my own version of the Dude with some differences, but much more in common with Paul’s design. I had the opportunity to compare the Coincident Statement to my Super Dude in a system including Paul’s TRL Samson SS monoblock amps. In this system the Dude really outshone the Coincident in all sonic aspects. But, please hear me on this, this was the case in this one system with the Dude having great synergy with the TRL amps and TRL cabling. Synergy is everything with our systems! When hearing the Coincident Statement in my current system I was completely floored based on the above first experience with the Coincident preamp. In my current system the Coincident Statement was simply gorgeous. I don’t have a Dude to compare in my current system, however I am confident both preamps would sound great with subjective preferences determining which preamp one would rather have. When gear gets this good it always comes down to preferences and system synergy. Also, as Brownsfan said, the tubes used really impact the sound of the Coincident line stage. He has the very best tubes in the unit I listened to. Based on my history with the Dude I can tell you the Coincident delivers a more airy and refined top end with a tad more midrange beauty. The Dude is more dynamic and throws a larger stage combined with a greater sense of ease when pushed. The Dude energizes a room like no other preamp I have ever heard. The Coincident delivers beautiful tonality and a sustained decaying of notes top to bottom that is arresting. The Truth offers remarkable purity and the complete absence of noise that takes getting used to. At first you think you are missing something, but over time you realize that noise and additional artifacts are now missing. Over time it’s hard to give this up! Soon I plan on building another tube preamp based on the Dude, but with a look towards the beauty of the Coincident. I think there are things that can be done and we will see. |
I remember well thaluza and thanks to yours, and others, recommendations I’m thoroughly enjoying The Truth. Thanks. Thanks to grannyrings suggestions I just ordered a new Truth with upgraded Furutech RCA jacks and internal silver wiring from Ed. Ed is a joy to work with as he is more than willing to build to suit ones needs. It will be interesting comparing the stock Truth to the upgraded one. |
This is a very intriguing discussion . I have been liking passives for a few years now . Actually a very inexpensive volume pot from Nanopatch and now from a company called Nobsound . The nobsound NS -o5P retails for around $60 . As grannyring described about the Truth with its lack of noise the Nobsound also has this quality . I will be checking out the TRUTH volume control in the future . For those not ready to spend $1000 on a unheard technology in their system I highly recommend the Nobsound NS 05p to start with and get a similar sound to start with for only $60 . , |
What I find most impressive about The Truth isn’t how quiet is ( and it’s dead silent) but how transparent it is. With The Truth in my system I was able to fully hear my source and amp for the first time. FWIW The Truth isn’t a passive pre amp but a zero gain active pre amp. I’m not sure what the distinction is but Ed explained it once and it made sense.....if only I could remember the explanation! |