Honest question about cartridge vs. turntable performance.

Different kinds of noise.....turntables provide speed variation, mechanical noise, etc.  Cartridge provides variation in frequency response, clarity, etc.

I meant to say “Unless” rather than “So” in the first sentence of last paragraph.

Thank you everyone for all your responses. My budget is limited to no more than 2k for the upgrade therefore I posed the question. I was wondering if I could just upgrade the cartridge and phone-preamp for best “bang for the buck” upgrade. I guess my main question is this: if there is surface noise when playing back vinyl (even after thorough cleaning) isn’t upgrading the table a nearly useless endeavor beyond a certain point since the noise floor improvement from a better table will never be realized? Am I being accurate in my assessment? 

 if there is surface noise when playing back vinyl (even after thorough cleaning) isn’t upgrading the table a nearly useless endeavor beyond a certain point since the noise floor improvement from a better table will never be realized?

not necessarily. you would have to do some testing to refine what is causing the noise. surface noise might be a few different things. the best approach is to first eliminate the obvious things before you start thinking about the platter or motor.

ideally you have a few Lp's and could hear them on a known properly performing turntable to get a reference for how they should sound. maybe even take them to a local hifi shop and ask them to play a short passage to find out (assuming they have a turntable).

or buy a new record that you confidently feel is likely quiet and properly pressed.

1--this noise could be as simple as some sort of gunk adhering to your stylus. heat from friction in the groove can cause that gunk to stick strongly. read up on proper cleaning methods for your cartridge.

2---could be the vinyl itself maybe with groove damage. or just a terrible pressing.

3---could be a loose cartridge mounting, or loose arm mounting.

4.---obvious noise from the platter or motor is unusual. typically you might hear some noise during very quiet passages, or maybe some 'sour' discontinuity during horn or piano sustains. but both of those things are lower level type noise, not in your face. 

With groove damage, the issue is not obvious in most cases by looking at the LP. Last night, I put on what looked like a Mint condition Direct to Disc, the groove noise was annoying from the lead in groove on the first side to the lead out groove on the last. 
Many LP's look to be in great condition, but once on the table, they show off their true condition. I think in the case of this particular LP, the previous owner(s) had used a cartridge that was worn or otherwise damaged, as such after just probably one play, the LP was damaged. The fact that the LP was a Direct Disc would lead me to question whether the album had been also played back on gear that was unable to really track this album..thereby resulting in the damage.

@millercarbon  I totally disagree concerning the demotion of digital sound to analog sound.  They are different but not incompatibly inferior to one another.  My CD reproduction has the same (or better) PRAT, tonality and dynamics as my analog reproduction.  The analog has the extra breath of life.  Analog can also have many problems from the vinyl pressing.  The biggest difference is mastering and either one can have great or not so great mastering.  I used to do all my semi-professional recordings on R2R, then DAT, now on a digital recorder.  I know the difference is there but there exists an advantage to each type.

As to turntable/arm/phone stage/cartridge-My modded $1100 1989 purchase of an SME IV arm sold last year new retail at $4600.  My phono stage would cost over $10K today (I paid $1500 20 years ago).  The Audio Interface SUT is now again available directly from Jensen transformers at the same price.  My turntable is a VPI TNT VI and would cost at least as much as I paid to replace it, if not more.  Only the cartridge is expendable and I chose to pay $2K 14 years ago.  Now I'm looking at $3K to $3.5K.  I am not willing to spend more even though I can afford a more expensive cartridge.  I like my tonearm because it is so durable and VTA is not as critical per LP as some other high end arms.  

Here is why it is a bad question to ask which is more important, turntable or cartridge. Think of a small jazz combo comprising 4 or 5 instruments and players. In such a group, the drum, bass, and/or piano can be thought of as the rhythm section. Most often, the rhythm is carried by the drummer or bassist. The turntable is analogous to a rhythm section. It alone determines the musical pace or tempo. The turntable's job first and foremost is to move the LP past the stylus at a constant speed regardless of forces that would tend to momentarily slow the platter. If the drummer is not keeping good time, the music will sound "off", too fast, too slow, dull, regardless of what the lead player in the group is doing. An experienced listener can hear it. Same goes for a turntable that is incapable of maintaining a constant speed. Think of that as time, t, on the X-axis. The linear progression of the music depends upon the turntable. The cartridge works in concert with the tonearm to pick up and accurately represent the signal encoded in the LP grooves. The work of the cartridge/tonearm is analogous to that of the soloist who heads up the jazz combo. His musicianship can be impeccable and original in content, but if the rhythm section is "off", you feel it. The cartridge/tonearm are responsible for amplitude, which is manifest as voltage at given frequencies, the y-axis. I’ve already mentioned that all my experience tells me the cartridge and tonearm should be thought of as a unit, a closed system. No matter how accurate the cartridge and tonearm are at translating changes in signal V, the music will not sound "right" to an experienced listener unless the turntable does its job of maintaining perfect timing, t, by driving the LP past the stylus tip at a constant speed. Yes, turntables sound different from one another, even two turntables that both keep good time will sound different. This is due to noise or the suppression of noise, either from the motor or the bearing or elements of the drive system, that separate one turntable from another, and to the turntable's capacity to control and dissipate various resonances. This is why I say that turntables do have a "character" that stays constant regardless of what tonearm and cartridge are mounted on it.  The cartridge and the tonearm are doing two entirely different things.

"if there is surface noise when playing back vinyl (even after thorough cleaning) isn’t upgrading the table a nearly useless endeavor beyond a certain point since the noise floor improvement from a better table will never be realized? Am I being accurate in my assessment?"

To the OP:

No, I do not think you're being accurate in your assessment. 

I've owned the same turntable for 35 years, a Michell Gyrodec. In recent years I've made non OEM changes to both the main bearing and the suspension which have resulted in fairly significant decreases in surface noise. 

Obviously, it's very difficult to quantify whether those reductions in noise were less or more than those achieved with changes to cartridge, phono preamp, optimizing cartridge/tonearm matching, optimizing the cartridge/phono preamp interface etc. all of which can result in fairly serious reductions in surface noise (along with clean records of course).

For what it's worth, the Ortofon 2M Black does seem to have a bit of a reputation for accentuating surface noise and also being demanding of setup. So setup alone may ameliorate some of your issues with noise.

That being said, the 2M Black does have a pretty good reputation. If it's in good condition it would be the last thing I would change. I think your funds would be best served improving the table (and arm with a view to optimizing with the 2M Black and possible future cartridges) and possibly your phono preamp, which I don't recall being mentioned in this thread-perhaps I've missed it. 

You should reap significant improvements/gains with a table/arm upgrade and not just in the surface noise department. The phono stage may need attention too. Unfortunately, analog is the sum of its parts-all of them are important. 

I took the air out of my own analogy.  The last sentence: "The cartridge and the tonearm are doing two entirely different things" should have read, "The cartridge and the TURNTABLE are doing two entirely different things", one in the signal voltage domain and the other in the time domain.

Atma-Sphere, I will never ride a bike with anything but Campy on it. That Jap stuff is cheap overweight crap. It only worked better if you did not know how to shift.
My current bike is a Specialized S works Diverge with Campy Super Record 12 speed EPS disc brake group. Fulcrum Carbon tubeless rims with Hutchinson Sector 32 tires. Perfect bike for an old fart with bad wrists:)

@mijostyn

Back in the 70s Campy was heavier, shifted slower and less precisely than the alloy SunTour stuff.

I got rid of derailleurs years ago- I have a custom Reynolds 953 and a Ti frame both equipped with Rohloff hubs. The Ti frame is a Jones and despite no suspension, is the most comfortable bike I've ridden.

You can always count on @millercarbon for a cryptic, meaningless statement with no real information.
Got to keep the post count up.

Calculate how much your phono stage, head amp stage, arm, table, isolasters, and cartridge, etc. cost.  When you spend that on a CD player, your opinion matters.  For a good comparison, check our Sheffield's D to D LP's and the CD's of the recording sessionsthat followed years later. I have Thelma Houston, Pressure Cooker.  I am not a fan of the music, but the comparison is worth the price of admission.

Your point is?

danvignau513 posts08-21-2020 11:56amCalculate how much your phono stage, head amp stage, arm, table, isolasters, and cartridge, etc. cost. When you spend that on a CD player, your opinion matters. For a good comparison, check our Sheffield's D to D LP's and the CD's of the recording sessionsthat followed years later. I have Thelma Houston, Pressure Cooker. I am not a fan of the music, but the comparison is worth the price of admission.

I found this from the Origin Live website while researching their tables and arms. See bottom. The phono stage is the biggest upgrades, followed by the TT.

https://www.originlive.com/hi-fi/tonearm/award-winning-tonearm-conqueror/

"Due to carrying out a great deal of listening to vinyl replay, we have had the luxury of listening to a vast array of equipment. The following information is intended to offer some help and advice on the many options and choices available with regard to upgrading priorities and allocating your hard earned budget.

We are constantly asked questions about upgrade paths along the lines of:
– “How much should I spend on my cartridge?”
– “Is it worth having my arm rewired for a budget turntable?”
– “Should I upgrade to the advanced DC motor kit or upgrade the tonearm or turntable?”
– “What level of performance does the DC motor kit add to my deck?”

Assessing priorities to upgrade your system is not always easy and so we are providing some guidance from the experience that we have acquired over the years. Much depends on your the level of performance you aspire to, coupled with your future plans (if any) and budget. For this reason the following guidelines are a matter of opinion and judgement.

Depending on the deck, the DC motor kit will add approximately £700 worth of performance to most turntables relative to the cost and performance of turntables. This makes it a very worthwhile investment, especially as increasing the performance of a turntable is vastly more effective than cartridge upgrades.

The motor upgrade is usually as effective as upgrading to a Silver tonearm but this depends on the quality of your current turntable motor drive.

The upgrades below are scored in terms of performance relative to one another.

Our Opinion on Component SignificanceComponentPerformance Significance:
23%Turntable
17%Tonearm
5%Cartridge
25%Phono Stage
15%Amplifiers
15%Speakers

I think it depends on the total price of the system, but in up to $15-20K systems, I think the allocation of 70% for the entire source is right on the money. I might reallocate within the.70% maybe (I am an arm guy), but the amp  & speakers can only deliver the signal they are given.

Our Opinion on Component SignificanceComponentPerformance Significance:
23%Turntable
17%Tonearm
5%Cartridge
25%Phono Stage
15%Amplifiers
15%Speakers

Spending only 15% of your budget on speakers is almost certainly going to set you up for disappointment!  In reality, one must spend WHATEVER it takes on the speakers (and possibly sub-bass) to get a great sound in the room irrespective of source.  Without that, you are just wasting your money on improvements that you can't hear and/or certainly can't fully realize.    

If I were selling like PS audio:
Instead for:

Our Opinion on Component SignificanceComponentPerformance Significance:
23%Turntable
17%Tonearm
5%Cartridge
25%Phono Stage
15%Amplifiers
15%Speakers

As a another example PS Audio should maybe say something like this:

Our Opinion on Component Significance Component Performance Significance:
5%Turntable
5%Tonearm
5%Cartridge
25%Phono Stage (PS Audio sells stellar phono)
25%Amplifiers (PS Audio core business)
35%Speakers (to boost the chance when ps Audio release their long awaited speaker line)

That seems reasonable if looking from the point of what the specific company are offering and selling..

And not from the best sound for the money from a consumer perspective..

This is absolutely pointless thread and these % calculation is nonsense.

How can it help someone ?

If you want a decent analog system you need a great cartridge, tonearm, turntable, phono stage, amps, speakers ...

You have hundreds of different alternatives for each component and everyone has personal preferences, every room is different.

5% or 10% what are you talking about ???

Hey Chakster - it's just guidelines for percentage spend on a moderate system by component area (up to maybe $15-20K) . They also forgot the cables/conditioner which could eat up 10% ($1500-2000).

The point is that if the source produces garbage, I don't care what kind of amp and speakers you have, it will sound like crap. Once the source gets to a  certain quality level, the amp and speakers can make a bigger difference. 

Of course everything matters, but the OP is looking for the best sound improvement for the buck, which we all are.

Ralph, I was saying that tongue in cheek. The Japenese made much better stuff than Campy for a while. They had to drag Campy out of the stone age. Camply could never catch up in mountain bike gear but in the mid 90's campy finally got serious again. I use it because I prefer ergo shifting levers, more intuitive, the EPS gear is better than Shimano DI2 and the disc brakes are seriously better. 
The Rohloff hubs are very cool but heavy. I have a Merlin Extra Light and for certain I think Ti bikes ride better than most carbon frames. The reason I got the Specialized is because it has a shock absorber in the head tube and it will take 42 mm Tubeless tires. I have an artificial wrist and I have to do everything to protect it. The Specialized Diverge is the most comfortable bike I've ever ridden but other than the shock absorber it is not due to the frame but to the Fulcrum carbon rims and the 32 mm tubeless tires. If I could put those tires on the Merlin I think it would ride even better but it is limited to 25 mm tires. 
The wife and I rode Tripole Rd last weekend to celebrate our 32nd aniversary (White Mountains, NH.) 6 miles with an average grade of 10%! We made it to the top without putting a foot down:)
I'm not sure I'm crazy about Lewm's analogy but overall I think he is right. The cartridge and tonearm act as a unit apart from the turntable. He is also right concerning noise and resonance. The Dohmann Helix takes all of this into account. I do beleive it is the quietest Turntable you can purchase today and hopefully I will be able to afford one before he goes out of business. I do believe the noise and resonance affect the sound more so than wow and flutter in most turntables. I do not think it is taken seriously by the establishment because it is impossible to measure. But, this is the reason I have always prefered suspended turntables. Even on a concrete slab there is loads of garbage that can make it's way to the cartridge by way of the turntable's feet. I'm afraid most of them are hopelessly inadequate. The SME 30 series is an excellent example of a quiet turntable. 
Tubelvr1, I think you be best served by spending the 2k on a nice cartridge. I do not beleive it would make a significant improvement on your turntable, tonearm or Phono amp. Tackle them when you have more money to spend. 

Lewm, The record was discharged on both sides and it is spinning with the dust cover up (old trash record:) You are right about the probe. I get a quick 150 volt spike and that is it. The record simply does not have enough capacitance. I discovered I have the perfect static electricity detection device. While rubbing the record with paper to get the charge the hair stood up on the back of my fingers. You can see it being attracted towards the record. Very...Handy:)))

It is possible to spend more on the front end analog and less on the amplifier and speakers and get the best sound.  Buying used efficient speakers (like a Legacy Focus speaker for $2500 or Signature IIIs for $1600) and a lower powered tube amp (but one with a good power supply for low impedance, maybe a new Prima Luna)  will leave ample funds for a higher end phono stage, cabling, turntable, cartridge and arm.  Again, one can purchase really good quality used analog as well such as a used Jelco or SME arm, used VPI 19 or SuperScout, Aries or Classic.  I would only buy a new cartridge unless the cartridge came from a reviewer who never wears out cartridges as they go through so many.  There are many very fine high output moving coils like Dynavector which gives up little or nothing for their 20X2 (I've heard it on a higher end system and it sounded wonderful).  So, don't box yourself into a rigid percentage guideline.  It's best to mix and match the best equipment for the price (but match the cartridge to the arm and the amp to the speakers).

The Rohloff hubs are very cool but heavy.

@mijostyn If you run belt drive its as light as any other system unless you run a single speed...

1) Tonearm 2) Turntable 3) Cartridge

After studying turntables, cartridges, many reviews, and then purchasing a Rega 6 with Ania Pro cartridge, I learned several things.

Turntables: The better ones remove vibrations better which allows the tracking of the record to be improved. This provides more information to your speakers. Its not just vibrations in the room if you’re walking around, but records with strong bass, the turntable will track the music more accurately. I found a difference between my Dual CS 5000 turntable and the Rega 6 even though my Dual was a good turntable, the Rega 6 was just a clear step up in performance all around. .

They will also have a good power supply, motor, and provide a consistent speed, Then of course a tonearm that once set right, will track very good. Different materials to deal with vibrations cause the price of the higher end turntables to be one reason why they are more expensive. There is more than one design to deal with vibrations. The VPI Scout and Rega use very different methods to reduce vibrations and both are very effective. However the VPI has more of a solid character while the Rega has a lighter airier sound. Granted the bigger difference in sound is the cartridge being used..

Cartridges: They provide the sound and detail of the music. A very good mm cartridge can out perform a ok MC cartridge. However when moving up the food chain, very good MC cartridges will provide more detail. They all seem to have some general personality. Some provide more detailed highs, others a fuller sound, and others more air. It can be quite maddening studying all the different brands and to learn the characteristics of a Grado, Audio Technica, Soundsmith, Hana, Ortofon, and Koetsu to name a few. Then there is the different line of cartridges from them all.

I personally was very interested in the Hana M Series when looking for a cartridge for the Rega 6. However once I realized Rega created and tested their own cartridges with their turntables and tone arm, I decided to stick with what was matched to work well together.

It would be a mistake not to also talk about a good phono pre. My NAD 658 only had a MM phono pre. Just moving to a Parasound XRM provided a louder, and fuller sound while being very quiet. Moving up to the JC3 Jr, the biggest improvement was the dynamics of the music. Once you learn to not focus on the sound of the phono pre (as the XRM and JC3 JR were so similar) you notice the punch of the bass, or durms where they just pop more. There is a improved front to back of the music which you move up the food chain. 

Zombie thread alert!

@tubelvr1 - since it does not look like you have settled on a solution here's what I found made the biggest improvements

1. the phono stage - I now have a Simaudio Moon LP 5.1 RS
2. Cartridge - I had a Denon D103 and had the cantilever & stylus upgraded by Soundsmith
3. Upgraded the Arm to an Audiomods Series 3 (old version from 12 years ago) - which has...
   1. a one piece slver harness
   2. KLE Innovations RCA plugs

The phono stage is amazingly quiet and the arm made it possible to hear the details prpovided by the Cartridge upgrade

The MMF table is a great choice, so you should send s note to Jeff at sudiomods to see if he can make you an arm that can easilt be installed.

You will then be in a great position to hear the improvements that a new cartridge or phono stage would bring

Here’s a couple of reviews I have on my web site

Audomods Arm

KLE Innovations Absolute Harmony (Turntable)

Regards - Steve