Many speakers are voiced to impress during a quick audition, often with a "smiley" EQ.
I'm convinced there are also brands/models for which the target market is older audiophiles who may need speakers with boosted highs in order to hear a balanced response. I've noticed many speaker response graphs where the highs at ~10kHz^ are boosted as much as 6db. Some of these graphs are for popular speakers from big brands that know full well how to design speakers for flat measurements. |
@helomech Its strange that I was so convinced that the veritas sounded better imo. They have clear mids so I wasn’t thinking that the lows and highs were accentuated but I guess I was wrong!
I had put the Tylers back in 2 days ago and pulled them right back out... I just put them back in and it took 10-15 mins to acclimate to what I was perceiving as rolled off highs, and now these sound better... wtf? I’ve been listening to these for 3 hours now with zero fatigue.
The Veritas imaged really well in that the center soundstage and separation side to side was all there but the Tylers have a deeper soundstage and are more holographic.
I wonder if my preference is for silk / fabric tweeters? I’ve loved the seas excel, vifa radiator ring, soliloquys’(?), atc, and this morel are all great.
I’m also wondering if these laid back sounding tweeters (they still provide great detail, just not in your face) are also more musical. How much of the midrange is covered by the tweeter? |
Time..........
let them break in.
Energy speakers,.....give about 150-200 hours of play.
enjoy. |
Speaker designs marketed for older audiophiles ? Really ? Ridiculous. Speakers need brake in time, for sure ( everything does ), and I am assuming these are used, but still might need break in time. Although very clean sounding speakers, they are a bit analytical, both bright, forward, and some have used the term " shrill ", and are not " full sounding " in the lower bass region ( a sub or two might change the balance, but not likely, the top end. Equipment, and room matching ( acoustics ), are very important ( in every case ). Listener / speaker set up is very specific for each pair of speakers, so setting them up differently than your others, might require some more tweaking. Your description of listening to them, would not put me to sleep, but rather, to run out of the room. System synergy has always been important. This extra detail, might also be showing up, some weaknesses in the recordings ( poor over dubbing, miking, compression, etc ). Not a speaker for everyone, but, what is ? Enjoy ! MrD. |
Speaker designs marketed for older audiophiles ? Really ? Ridiculous. Apparently you know little about marketing strategies. Today's marketing managers are adept at targeting specific customer types. My post was referring to speakers like Golden Ear's Triton series, which consistently measure with hot highs How many young people in their child-rearing years have $4K+ to spend on tower speakers? Then there's the fact that the majority of audiophiles are over 50. These are the sort of factors a marketing strategist will consider and discuss with the engineering team in any competent company. |
@b_limo Don't forget Scanspeak soft domes, they're excellent too, if the ways you describe. |
Helo.......you are convinced, that is for sure. Always nice exchanging words with you. Enjoy ! MrD. |
The Veritas are from 2002 time frame... I would believe they have been played for 200 hours... My room is heavily treated, more on the “dead” sounding side. I’m also meticulous with speaker set-up and toe in / toe out. I was using the supplied veritas stands, which I filled with sand. I always snug up any bolts on my speakers, along with applying contact conditioner (deoxit gold).
I wouldn’t say the Veritas were shrill but definitely open, clear, detailed and exciting. I was actually getting great bass extension in my room but the bass sounded slightly delayed (rear port, bouncing off the back wall?) and that was something else that I thought might be causing fatigue as my brain was constantly pointing out that the bass was lagging behind the music, not pushing it forward. Which bring me to my next point. The Veritas sounded great; I mean, they make delicate, airy, crisp noises but I don’t think they really make “music”. I would imagine that 7 out of 10 would pick the Veritas in a 20 minute listening session. I really wonder how many speakers grab a potential buyers attention in a short demo (key, b&w, paradigm), only to give them issues later on that they try to fix through dull sounding cables or amps.
Anyhow, I listened to the Tylers all night and am up first thing again today listening; I have the Tylers up for sale but am reconsidering even selling them now.
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@b_limo - I totally agree with your analysis of knowing something is wrong with your system if only after 15 minutes you are literally falling a sleep or bored. Music should do the exact opposite. It should wake you up, make you emotional, want to move around, sing, cry, etc. If all you can thing about is "damn these speakers sound bright" then get rid of them and keep the Tylers. |
@twoleftears 👍 scan speak! Forgot about those. Satori as well? Hiquphon? Sb Acoustics? ... |
My two cents - I've always found Energy speakers on the bright side, often even shrill. That can certainly make them stand out in the crowd when auditioning multiple speakers side-by-side, but I wouldn't be happy with them over the long term. My personal reference is how closely a speaker mirrors unamplified acoustic instruments (including voice). As with individual preferences for any piece of equipment, YMMV. |
I know exactly what you mean.Crisp,clean,transparent sounding components seem attractive initially but so many times they can't reproduce the emotion and soul of the music.
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Cut small T-shirt squares , tape to inside of grill or over the tweeter, it soaks up a lot of the shrillness.
Speaking from experience (ie-BIC DV-84) so open airy, wicked sound, but so bright, taping a two layer cut squares too the grill, helped a massive lot!
Enjoy the speakers! |
@sbayne , Thanks for that! I think I needed to hear that. I put sale pending on my ad and will more than likely pull the ad and keep the speakers until I can upgrade (which I’m guessing will be some stand mounts in the $1500-$2000 range). I totally agree with the emotional connection factor that you pointed out so well 👍
@mlsstl , I agree with you as well regarding how to properly asses a speakers performance... do the instruments sound real? They may sound wicked good, super detailed, great attack, but if the sound is lacking the underlying harmonics and doesn’t reproduce music, so what?
@jtcf , Why do you think that is? That “they” (hyper detailed?) speakers miss the emotional, musical factor?
@arctikdeth Thats good advice, and something I would do if the Veritas weren’t leaving asap!
Still listening to the Tylers today with no desire to move them out. I started to think that I may be over metal tweeters, maybe even ribbons, for awhile. With that in mind, in order to improve on my current Tyler's, I’ll have to get something with some Seas Excel or Scan Speak revelators, or equivalent. Perhaps some Salks on my way to some Pulsars (its good to have long term goals 😀) |
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Same this guy. Tried a pair once with metal domed tweeters (can't recall actual driver but was aluminum) and lasted about 3 days. Went back to silk. So concerning Revelators, I'd agree but my current 2 ways use the Illuminators. They are beryllium (technically a metal) but trust me on this, they arent like other "metal" tweeters. Detailed but not harsh or overly brilliant. I was skeptical to try but now a believer. Comments seem to put them brighter than Seas but not in typical metal fashion.
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@akgwhiz.
Those sound like Odyssey?
correct if wrong.
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@jamesclarke I heard nola boxers with rel subs, can’t recall if it was 1 or 2 subs, in the Synergistic Research's room at RMAF years ago. It was too this day, one of the best sounding standmount set-ups I’ve heard.
@akgwhiz I had some Paradigms with Beryllium tweeters and loved them. I also liked the Revel and Focal BE tweeters as well. Just about all the BE tweeters I’ve heard, I like 👍 |
@arctikdeth Those Scanspeaks are in 2-way Madisound NADA, Klang Ton build kit in cabinets by Lee Taylor. Went ported. Ps, as you see by my handle I'm in AK. You (arctik)?
@b_limo Then you know of what I speak! I upgraded DAC this winter to an r2r type with tube in a MHDT Orchid. Better than prior but still not vinyl "warm" to me. No complaints, just one man's opinion. Not sure I caught what your main source material was. Using hybrid A/D amp. If all digital you may choose softest, least bright choice. For me with about 50/50 these Be have worked.
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@akgwhiz.
WHAT IS AK?
if I see brain dead, I’m 13 moosehead sin, so I’m havin a brain fart. |
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@akgwhiz.
I wish,
stuck in one of the worst counties in the U.S.
WERE moving to Indiana I think soon.
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I bought a pair of custom/DIY speakers several years ago. They have a similar design to Legacy Focus and use Eton metal dome mids and tweeters which are highly detailed and can be BRIGHT! These speakers replaced Von Schweikert VR 4 Gen II and killed them in every way, making the VR's sound veiled and confused but the upper midrange brightness made them a challenge to listen to. I experimented with interconnects and power cords and then tubed components. I tried gold in various locations and found it either dulled the sound or made the already too prominent mids more prominent. Really, I considered selling the DIY speakers due to the brightness issue but I lucked into something that didn't obscure any detail nor did it dull the top end extension.
During my power cord experimentation, I tried various plugs from Iego and Oyaide and then sourced wire from several places. The top of the line Iego 8095, which is rhodium over silver, has a very open and extended top end but somehow tames brightness and the Mundorf silver/gold wire is a great match with these plugs. I got the wire from Ebay , a Taiwanese distributor, and for less than $400, I got the sound I was hoping for. One of these in your system should tame the hotness without reducing the transparency/detail. That's not cheap but it will better a lot of more expensive after market power cords. I had Fusion Audio Enchanters, BMI Hammerhead Gold and Whale Supreme, and 6sons Audio Windigos in my system. I never felt that my DIY cord wasn't better than all mentioned. And the taming effects were noticed in all locations I tried the power cord in. It sounded as good on the digital source as the power amp as the power conditioner/regenerator. Good luck with your quest!
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I would check the height of the tweeter relative to your ear height. It may be the new speaker’s tweeter is dead on axis with your ear and the Tyler’s tweeter was above / below your ear making it sound less tipped up in the highs. In addition, I would play with toe - in and rake angle which can have a significant effect on highs. It may be the new speaker if positioned straight at your ear and dead on in terms of height = shrill / overly bright. I find with most speakers having the tweeter slightly above your ear height is the best mix of detail without brightness.
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@lcherepkai - Can you post some links for the sources where you've been buying the Iego 8095 plugs and Mundorf silver/cord wire? What gauge of wire? Thanks |
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Check out the Energy rc-70’s
absolute opposite of bright, a very warm speaker, sometimes with certain recordings, too warm.
takes me a good 15-20 min to get in the groove with them, since I don’t listen to them often. |
Dynaudio Esotar is the best soft dome made. You might want to demo Dynaudio Special 40’s . If your budget is big enough consider ProAc D2R. Their Ribbon tweeters are sublime.
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@helomech "Many speakers are voiced to impress during a quick audition, often with a "smiley" EQ.I'm convinced there are also brands/models for which the target market is older audiophiles who may need speakers with boosted highs in order to hear a balanced response. I've noticed many speaker response graphs where the highs at ~10kHz^ are boosted as much as 6db".
I would agree with you but I don't believe hearing works like that as you age. You either hear the high frequency or you don't.
I have had several hearing tests over the years working for a federal laboratory and after a certain frequency it drops like a rock.
my most recent test showed excellent hearing up to 15KHz which is excellent for my age (50's). Boosting above that frequency will not help any aging audiophile achieve a balanced sound.
I think the real reason for boosted high frequencies (B&W for example) is to attempt to enhance resolution and also make for sizzling temporarily impressive demos as you also mentioned. |
@helomech "Many speakers are voiced to impress during a quick audition, often with a "smiley" EQ.I'm convinced there are also brands/models for which the target market is older audiophiles who may need speakers with boosted highs in order to hear a balanced response. I've noticed many speaker response graphs where the highs at ~10kHz^ are boosted as much as 6db".
I would agree with you but I don't believe hearing works like that as you age. You either hear the high frequency or you don't.
I have had several hearing tests over the years working for a federal laboratory and after a certain frequency it drops like a rock.
my most recent test showed excellent hearing up to 15KHz which is excellent for my age (50's). Boosting above that frequency will not help any aging audiophile achieve a balanced sound.
I think the real reason for boosted high frequencies (B&W for example) is to attempt to enhance resolution and also make for sizzling temporarily impressive demos as you also mentioned. That may be. I don't claim to be an expert on hearing loss. I've just noticed patterns among my local audiophile friends and the speaker types they gravitate towards. Maybe it's just that they can't hear the offending frequency peaks at all. |
I had someone coming tonight to potentially buy the Veritas (he didn’t show) so I put them back in my system... pulled them out after 5 minutes. I didn’t even want to listen to them while I was waiting for the buyer to show up. I was playing Corey Hart “sunglasses at night” and there was so much sibilance that it was awful. Every “s” sounded extremely exaggerated and ssssspity. Terribly annoying, I wonder why so many people love these Veritas 🤨.
Im still on the fence about selling the Tylers... |
@b_limo Corey Hart definitely should never sound ssssspity!You asked me why 'clear transparency' often is missing the emotion.My personal take on it is it's fascinating at first to hear vocalists and instruments almost like they were recorded in a vacuum,outerspace,a perfect environment.But after a while it seems unnatural,that's not how things sound in the natural world.It feels cold and not human.Electronic music would be great with that type of presentation.But Corey Hart?Just no.I want the illusion of a human being in between the speakers that can make me feel what he's trying to convey.If ultimate transparency is #1 and euphonic syrupy warmth is #10,acceptable for me rests between 4 - 6.
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@b_limo I believe the Nola boxers are still available and I think the seller would be motivated to make a deal with you for them. I won’t say why here but encourage you to talk to him and you’ll see.
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@b_limo
Can’t believe they are as bad as you say.
some simbalance can be from CD player, or the amplifier.
I have Energy’s,they are the best speaker I’ve heard in a long time.
they are yours, so do as you will, I would tweak them and keep them.
Try the 2”x2” cotton t shirt squares over the tweeters, you will be pleasantly surprised.
Or please.try the RC series, they are the absolute opposite of the veritas.
Thetreble is cut off at 600hz, they are amazing.
Try the RC-10 bookshelf’s.
The RC-10’s will be what you want.
if you search, you can find a good pair.
I know you’ve made your mind, if u buy the RC-10’s , and don’t like them, I will buy them from you.
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Another possible approach is if you can handle a screwdriver and soldering iron. Keep the Tylers and modify them.
Go straight to the crossover and identify the series capacitor to the tweeter. Chop it out and note its value, something like 3.3 to 6.8uf, because you want to replace it with the exact same value.
If you choose a Mundorf Supreme or Clarity Cap CSA you will be well pleased with the results. There are of course many others to choose from but the 2 mentioned are great, reasonably priced and a big step up from the original.
While you are at it, if you see sand cast resistors (the square white ones) chop them out as well, they have no place in power supplies nor crossovers, and replace with same value Mills 12W. Again there are others to consider. Mills are smooooth.
The internal wiring to XO and to the drive units can be upgraded and I recommend soldering to the terminals. If keen there is much help and info on the net to digest.
Some strips of hardwood glued and screwed to the rear and side panels inside the box will provide a slightly cleaner sound. Don't overdo it or you will change the tuning if box is ported.
If the drive units are secured with wood screws then replace them with solid brass equivalents. Make sure they are not just brass plated. If they are machine screws which thread into steel inserts then it won't help. No, don't ask, I have no idea why it helps. It costs almost nothing to try!
All this will not change the overall balance but you will find the sound more engaging and fun.
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You mentioned Salk. Get a pair of Song3s and get off the merry go round. |
