Veroman,
Thank you.
I have been on the Audio Nirvana web site and I had a couple of phone conversations with David Dicks, the owner, back when I was considering how to get into SET amps. He has a house-designed, Chinese made 300B amp that goes for something like $1550, delivered (which I'm dying for somebody on Audiogon to buy just so I can find out what it's like at that price)!
Now that I've built a couple of electronics kits, the thought of trying a DIY speaker has definitely occurred to me. In fact, if the ANK Audio Note speaker kits weren't so darn pricey, I'd try one of those.
If I came into a little spare cash, I might very well build a speaker from the Commonsense web site, since the total cost is very reasonable. Exactly which drivers are you using? And did you have someone build the cabs or did you do that yourself? I don't have any woodworking expertise, nor any of the required tools (saws, clamps and so on) so I'd have to factor that in to the cost, as well. |
Rebbi,
I'll sit here and laugh my evil laugh joyously listening to my various Tekton speakers (M-Lore/Lore $650 and $1,000 respectively).
I did refer you to that Tim Smith Wall of Sound review previously, more than once in your previous threads. I also alerted you to a number of other Tekton reviews from the likes of Enjoy the Music, Part-Time Audiophile, Positive-Feedback as well as some others. Every review comes to the same conclusion: Tekton speakers are excellent top to bottom and checks all the audiophile boxes.
For $1,500 bucks you cannot do better. My De Capo vs Tekton-Lore shoot-out was no contest in the bass, Tekton clear winner! On every other parameter the Tekton was as good or better. Tim Smith liked the M-Lore better than his Harbeth 7s amongst others. The Lore is even better.
If you got $2,100 for the De Capo I'd get the Lore 2.0 for $900 (8 ohm, 98db, 30hz) with the money left over get a good power cord and interconnects. It will kill the De Capo. |
Last comment: you could also have Eric Alexander put in a Mundorf silver cap, it's inexpensive, raises the bar even more. |
Rob,
You make a compelling case forTekton. Y ou have actually listen to it and the De Capo in direct comparison. It has accumulated a growing body of diverse reviewers who reached similar conclusions about its sound quality. Rebbi wonders if the Tekton lacks the De Capo's refinement. Yours and reviewers impressions would seem to suggest they do not. At the very least it appears to be a serious contender.
Rob I agree with the idea to upgrade crossover parts when ever possible. Better quality capacitors do make a noticeable improvement. Ironically I believe Tekton's relatively low cost works against it for some people(it's too good to be true mindset).
Charles, |
" I believe Tekton's relatively low cost works against it for some people(it's too good to be true mindset)."
Probably true for some. You can never please everyone, even by offering a tremendous value. But value is value and always a good thing so people can recognize it or not but that does not change it. Word of mouth can be a powerful driving force and value is often the thing that fuels that best. No doubt direct sales over the internet helps cut out the middleman and enables values that are hard to achieve otherwise these days. Few things I see in traditional B&M shops these days are the best values out there. They operate as much on brand name recognition as anything else. |
Rob,
When I spoke with Eric Alexander and asked him about my choices and about the De Capo, which he said he was quite familiar with (but did not try to trash, which I respected) he basically said something along the lines of, "The Lore would be an entirely different experience, rough if the music is rough, loud if the music is loud, dynamic like a live performance…"
As Charles said, I really value the fact that you have had the opportunity to hear these two speakers side-by-side. And I think that I probably am suffering somewhat under the "how good can it be for that kind of money" syndrome. But not enough to prevent me from giving it a try if it looks like the best option! I am interested, by the way, in your comment that "in every other parameter [besides bass] the Tekton was as good or better than the De Capo." That's kind of what I was wondering about. You have to understand that I am so consistently thrilled with what I am hearing with the Kit 1 and the De Capo that I'm almost afraid to mess with success. |
Rebbi, come and try my Katz already! |
Sebrof,
Will do... I just need for things to slow down at work so I can escape the office. ;-)
Have you found similarities between the Katz and the Lore, since you've owned both? |
Rebbi,
I like the De Capo a lot; but I like both Tektons much better. First, the bass is really, really good. Remember, I am a bass player. The Tekton is easy to drive, benevolent 8 ohm impedance, 95db, 98db efficiency, 38hz or 30hz bass. They throw a huge stage, in my room usually wall-to-wall if the recording has it, deep and nicely layered. The height is normally close to life-like. Female vocals like Ella check. One of my go-to Jazz CDs is: Louia Armstrong/Duke Ellington, The Great Summit/Complete Sessions/Delux Edition. You want to talk "truth of timbre", harmonic rightness, natural organic sound this CD will show it in spades, full, rich, just glorious! I feel like I'm in a small club and Sach, Duke, everybody is there in all their life-sized reach out and touch them. Louis' trumpet, the Duke's piano, Trummy Young's trombone doesn't get much better, Barney Bigard on clarinet is so live I had to invite my niece over to play hers to compare. If only she had Barney's talent...Danny Barcelona on drums, cymbals and brushes so perfect, and last, but not least, Mort Herbert playing a five foot tall bass that nailed strings slapping with buzz and body, the notes just floated so naturally, nice decays. This is not hyperbole.
On a classical recording such as Bartok Concerto for Orchestra, Music for Strings, Percussion and Celesta, Hungarian Sketches (Fritz Reiner, CSO) on RCA Living Stereo, the dynamics are phenomenal. This is truly a great recording to test your speakers. That big U of orchestra is there and it is easy to pick out all the instruments in their rightful spots.
I have no connection to Tekton. I have enjoyed quality sound both live and recorded since childhood on some of the best audio stuff ever produced. For $1,500 bucks you can get 90% there. As alway YMMV. |
Mikirob,
Thanks.
One more question: How do they fare at lower volumes? Some speakers need to be played loud to "wake up," so to speak. How are the Lores in this regard? |
Rebbi,
The Tektons play very well at low volume. In my listening room, 14x16, I generally have the volume near 9 o'clock. At 10’clock it starts to really rock the room. When at 8’o'clock it is quiet. Yet very clear and still dynamic. Remember, this is with my 8 watt Coincident Dynamo 34SE, EL34.
You should read all the reviews. I especially liked the Tim Smith (6 Moons) and Enjoy the Music reviews since they both used the Tektons with the Coincident Dynamo SE. The reviews were thorough and honest evaluations. They match my listening observations. The Stereomojo review garnered their award. So too, Enjoy the Music. Positive-feedback also matches my listening experience. |
04-23-15: Rebbi
Sebrof,
Have you found similarities between the Katz and the Lore, since you've owned both? In ways the Lore sounded like bigger Katz, the Katz more delicate. The Lores more bass, more punch and drive. The Katz did that holographic floating music SET thing a little better. I liked both, in fact my for sale ad was for either Lore or Katz, I said I'm selling only one whichever sells first. 04-23-15: Rebbi
Mikirob,
Thanks.
One more question: How do they fare at lower volumes? Some speakers need to be played loud to "wake up," so to speak. How are the Lores in this regard?
I'll answer - I found them to play nice and full at low volumes. Actually that was/is something that is important to me, and something I think SET amps do well. |
Sebrof,
I agree with your comment that the Lore plays nice and full at low volume.
The M-Lore does as well. And by-the-way, I think the Tekton is a refined
speaker, the De Capo doesn't beat it in this regard either, just different. |
Barney Bigard's clarinet, yes, Rob I know just what you mean. I think you and I listen and hear music in a very similar fashion. I know those recordings well, both CDs and records. The Tekton is indeed a very good speaker if it gets the tone, harmonics and presence right as you've described.
Rob you'd be surprised how many big name expensive speakers I've heard at CES/RMAF can't get those essentials right. This is exactly why there's no substitute for listening yourself. The quest for that ultra detailed sound ruins natural sound reproduction I've come to recognize. |
Rob, thanks for the comment about "refinement." I was wondering about that, too. |
Charles,
Tone, harmonics, presence, "if ain't got that, it ain't got nothin'!
This year I plan to get to a number of shows. The last one I went to was AXPONA in Jacksonville, FL with my wife, that was a couple of years ago; and you are absolutely right, many rooms can't get the "essentials" right.
There is no shame in getting 90% there. That you can do so with a modest system cost is mind-blowing. In the Enjoy the Music review they put together a total $5,000 buck system including all wiring and DAC, amp, speakers. It included: |
Sorry about that, accidentally hit the submit button. To Continue:
$1,200 Coincident Dynamo 34SE amp
$1,000 Tekton Reference Speakers
$500 Schitt DAC
$1,000 CD Player
The rest in cables, speaker, interconnect, a little over $5,000. 90% there.
And Rebbi, I bet your system with the AN Kit-1, Tekton Lore 2.0 with upgraded Mundorf silver cap, your turntable or a decent inexpensive Cd/transport with say, something like a used MiniMax DAC, good power cable, speaker, digital, interconnect would elevate the above mentioned stuff. |
In recent years, since starting my focus on revamping my setup back around 2008, I've found Enjoy The Music to be the best and most reliable resources available to me for finding high value excellent performing products that one might not be aware of otherwise. I have a high degree of trust in what they say about recommended products. |
Atmasphere wrote:
Sorry to pop some bubbles here:
The problem you are up against is that with almost any SET, if you really want to hear what the amp really does (the magic) you really **don't** want to push it past about 20% of its full output. If you do, the higher ordered harmonics come into play and there is an interesting interaction that occurs with the human physiology when that happens. This is very interesting, Atmasphere. Is this true for SEP as well? True for a Dynamo 34SE? That was an insightful observation. Thank you! |
Is that why there is no Atmasphere SET amp?
otl all the way I suppose. |
Lew,
There are variables to consider, what's your listening level (very important) on average?
What the sensitivity and efficiency of your speakers?
You may only be using fractions of a watt the vast Majority of the time. You should listen to a good quality OTL and SET and decide which suits you better. Theory only takes you so far. You can find sucess with either but you must listen to really know. |
Pretty much all amps get more strident when overdriven. Soft clipping helps but one is always well advised to not make an amp work too hard. Nothing special about a set except you get fewer watts before bad things become prevalent. |
Mapman: Not sure that is what Atmasphere was referring to. He doesn't tend to state the obvious.
Charles: I realize many factors come into play. You might recall a thread of mine. My thinking is revolving around an active 4-way system and the ribbon tweeters I'm looking at are 102 dB sensitive and 5 ohm over the whole range. Midrange would be 100 dB sensitivity and minimum impedance of 4 ohm. Sounds like a good match...at least on paper.
I usually listen at 80-85 dB, and ocassionally get to 90 and maybe 95 rarely.
It looks like I would be meeting Atmasphere's 20% of 8W guideline at all time. Nice. |
It's pretty well documented that sets do not measure well when it comes to distortion levels compared to other amp topologies. Yet many seem to find the sound uniquely appealing. So yes not an obvious thing it would seem. The fact that no two amp speaker combos sound exactly the same is a pretty good indicator that distortion is prevalent in various forms with most any technology to some extent. The proof in the end is the listening. Nothing is perfect. |
Rebbi, I have 2 sets of audio nirvana speakers. The classic 8 and the 12', both with the basic magnets. the first boxes i had made at a car stero shop as they make boxes for cars anyway. they turned out great. the second boxes i had made by the guy david dicks recommends on his site, he sent them to me unfinished and precut for drivers and posts. they are great too. the cost of the 12inch drivers and boxes and stain etc was under 800 easily. i use an appj amp 3.5 wpc(220$) i got on amazon and rolled the tubes, genalex red lion. The sound is fantastic. i used a smaller cabinet size than i should have out of space concerns so i do miss some very deep bass output but it is so negligible it does not affect my listeneing pleasure. it is a nice treat to be able to select size and finish on your own speaker |
Veroman, thanks a lot for that specific information! |
Hi Lew,
Yes that was my point. At your typical listening levels you are "far" below that 20% threshold and would hardly if ever even reach it. At your listening levels that utilizes so little power, distortion is minuscule. This is the beauty/advantage it the SET. With your situation Lew you're using likely 1/50-1/10th of a single watt! Maybe less. Well below that 20% margin. To hit the 20% power range the sound would be unbearably loud IMO. Probably 95% of my listening is done with less than 1 watt of power and as a result ultra low distortion. That's is a good deal.
Charles, |
Lew,
Here's my situation. My speakers are 94 db and 14 ohm load. I sit 10 feet from them. Average listening volume for me is 75-80 db C weighted. I'm drawing 1/4 to 1/8 of a watt from my amplifier. Theres plenty of reserve if needed(8 watt s at full output). I use my SET full range(speaker has two 10' woofers each).
In comparison your speakers are more sensitive(100-102 db) and you're not requiring your amps to do bass duty as I am. It would seem to me a good quality SET would just coast under your desired circumstances. Your use of SET is much less demanding than mine and I have no problems(best amp and sound I've ever had). So you should be fine IMHO. If you decide to choose a SET just be sure it has a good quality output transformer(this the worse area to go cheap and settle for a poor part).
Charles, |
Rebbi, I'll augment Veroman's input: at RMAF I was stunned by the tonality and frequency extension of Audio Nirvana's single-driver setup, which showcased their 12" cone and an EL34 push/pull if I recall correctly. |
Thanks Charles. Your amps look fascinating, but out of my budget and space constraints for my configuration as 4 monoblocks would be required. The Dynamo looks appealing from cost and space perspective, and obviously from the reports about the way it sounds.
I guess my bottom-line-question is whether the vanishing distortion at lower output level that is a trait of SETs is also a trait of SEPs, like the Dynamo? |
Rebbi ;
Two pages and counting !
Good luck man . LOL . |
04-26-15: Lewinskih01
I guess my bottom-line-question is whether the vanishing distortion at lower output level that is a trait of SETs is also a trait of SEPs, like the Dynamo? Hi Lewinski, Ralph can most likely provide the best answer to that question, but pending his response I'll say that the vanishingly low distortion of SETs under small signal conditions is presumably due to a combination of two things: Absence of crossover distortion, resulting from the single-ended operation, and the inherent linearity of good triodes, especially under small signal conditions. The Dynamo, being single-ended, will provide the first of those benefits, so the question becomes the degree to which the linearity and distortion characteristics of an EL34 operated under small signal conditions can approach those of a good directly heated triode such as the 300B. I don't know the answer to that question, but I think it's worth reflecting upon the fact that a lot of very highly regarded amplifiers over the years have used the EL34 in a push-pull configuration, crossover distortion included. Best regards, -- Al |
Saki70,
You know what they say:
"A thread's not a thread until it hits 500 posts."
:-) |
This is very interesting, Atmasphere. Is this true for SEP as well? True for a Dynamo 34SE?
That was an insightful observation.
Thank you! The 20% thing applies to SETs, which typically make about 10% THD at full power. However below about 20% their distortion is quite low, and if one thinks an SET measure poorly one should try to measure the distortion at the lower power levels and then they don't look bad at all. Its understanding how they are to be used that is in short supply. SEPs are a little different- and because of their inherently higher distortion I would expect that you would want to run them at even less power. Again, speaker efficiency is key: otherwise you simply are not hearing what the amplifier can do. |
Thanks Ralph.
I asked Coincident's Israel Blume about Dynamo's THD and he replied "1% @ 8W , .8% at 1 watt"
Seems the difference in THD from 12.5% power (1W/8W) to full power is not much. Should I conclude there is no much gain from running this amp at lower power % then? No vanishingly low distortion at low power in this design, it seems. |
I'd just listen to determine how things sound at different levels to the extent it matters.
Whatever the numbers and theories all that matters is if it sounds good or not. A trained ear knows. |
Lew,
Those are in reality very good THD levels for this type of topology. Again IMO with your speaker sensitivity(100-102 db) at your listening levels(80-90 db) you're in the 'tiny' fractions of 1 watt region. We all agree, listening is the best test. |
Mapman, ubetcha! All I want is music that sounds like music. |
De Capo's are sounding luscious with the Kit 1 these days. I think that the amp continues to settle in. Bass is firming up further and soundstage is huge. Imaging is unreal. Still toying with trying the Lore 2.0's or the Omega Alnico Monitors but only if I can find a way to finance a home trial without selling the De Capo's. Or I may stay put for now. |
Rebbi,
Are there aspects of the Manley amps you miss or is your AN Kit 300b just a better amplifier across the board for you? Curious because both amps were heard with the same De Capos.
Charles, |
if what you have is doing good, it makes perfect sense to not get rid of what you have until you have proof of something better That requires actual listening and comparison, one way or another. |
Rebbi, long, long, ago, in a land far, far away when you started this thread, I drove the deCapos with 3 different amps. If your AN is even remotely close to my Coincident Frankensteins, I am not one bit surprised that you are very pleased with the pairing. Mapman is right. Do nothing without an ability to A/B, and that without financial downside. I am also more than a little interested in the Tekton line, but am in no hurry. Along with everyone else, I am very pleased that things are going well now. |
Rebbi,
Browns fan gives sage advice, as does Mapman. I really like the Tekton speakers that I own, but also really like the De Capo's as well. My gut feeling is that the AN Kit-1 is a superb match with the De Capo as you described and should get better as your amp breaks in further.
Since you inspired my wife and she is still determined to build the AN Kit-1 herself I've given a lot of thought to what ancillary audio equipment will create real music with a moderate budget. I'm still pondering that equation and think I'm going to do something like this:
AN Kit-1 $2,100-2,500.
Yamamoto Dac $1,000.
My Sony S9000ES SACD/CD as Transport
Tekton Lore Speakers.
Something like Silnote Power Cord, Interconnect, Digital and Speaker cables. Maybe Triode wire...or ???
Probably upgrade to Jupiter Cap...???
Probably upgrade tubes after stock burn-in...Black Treasure ???
Since I already own a bunch of this stuff total cost might be around $5,000. Of course I could also save some money by utilizing my Minimax Dac instead of the Yamamoto which I think I want for my main room system with the Franks.
Best Rebbi, I'm happy for you that all is well and you are thoroughly enjoying the music. |
Rob,
The Yamamoto DAC is relatively a rare find in the used marketplace. If you can get one for only 1K that is a true steal!(believe me). Given your taste and experience I think you'll really enjoy it. It definitely is geared towards the "music lover" crowd. I'm sure you know what I mean.
Charles, |
I agree Rebbi that you should "stay put" unless given the opportunity to listen to another speaker without financial committment. All I can say is that the longer I live with the DeCapos the more I enjoy them. They are a VERY refined musically involving monitor. All this talk about how well the DeCapo and Kit 1 work together makes me want to challenge my suspicions, primarily that the Kit doesn't have enough gas for large scale dynamic music. I would like to be wrong. It's hard to overlook the enthusiasm of users of low powered SET amps and these speakers. |
Charles,
Good question. To be honest, no, there's nothing I miss about the Manley Mahis. At least with my associated equipment, I feel that the Kit 1 betters the Manley's in every way. The Kit 1 is much quieter – it is dead silent even if I turn the volume control all the way up to maximum. Instrumental tone and timbre is miles ahead. (As I mentioned in an earlier post, I was listening to a Joni Mitchell Greatest Hits CD last week and the sound of her voice and the tone of some of the acoustic guitar work was startlingly real.)
As the amp continues to settle in, I have found that low-end response is, surprisingly, at least as good as my old push-pull gear, maybe even a little better. On "Another World," from Joe Jackson's "Night and Day" LP, the big kettle drum whacks have a body to them that I never heard before. Similarly, a few nights ago I was listening to one of my favorite songs from Paul Simon's "So Beautiful or So What" CD. The track "Rewrite," features all sorts of exotic string instruments and percussion, including hits on some kind of very deep sounding talking drum. The energy and authority on those drum hits completely took me by surprise. I think I must have been grinning!
The Kit 1 also has that wonderful ability to present the music as an organic whole, while still giving each component of the music is due without smearing. So, well recorded background vocals sound clean and pure and you can appreciate them both as a unified, harmonic entity while at the same time hearing each voice as its own musical element.
I will give you all one further example.
I own a single Diana Krall CD. I'm not a big fan of hers (no offense to those of you who are) but I bought her CD "When I Look in Your Eyes" a few years ago because I knew that she is an audiophile favorite and wanted to see what the fuss was about.
I can certainly understand why the audiophile crowd loves her. Apart from the quality of the performances (say what you will) the sonics are immaculate.
Anyway, on the opening cut of that CD, "Let's Face the Music and Dance," there is some beautiful (schmaltzy) orchestration that always sounded very pretty on my old amplifiers. But when I listened to that track last night for the very first time on the Kit 1, I was astounded by the presentation. Startlingly, the background went from sounding like "orchestration" to sounding like An Orchestra playing in an auditorium behind the speakers. Now, remember, I have a small, cluttered and fairly acoustically compromised listening room, but I NEVER thought I'd hear music like this in my own home.
So, yeah, you could say I'm happy. ;-) |
Brownsfan,
It's funny that you chime in that this point, because I was thinking the other day that there is some kind of real synergy between the De Capo and 300 B SET amplification. It now makes sense to me that Tash Goka, the head of Reference 3A, recommends one of the Antique Sound Labs 300 B SET amps (which he imports) as a great match with the De Capo. And now, yes, I am remembering that, a long time ago, you said in your comparison that the Coincident Frankenstein sounded pretty great with the De Capo.
Obviously, I cannot compare the the Kit 1 to the Frankenstein 300 B. What I can say is that, while the Kit 1 isn't "cheap" by any means, in the world of high-end audio it's one heck of a great amp at a reasonable asking price. Heck, if you were averse to the do-it-yourself part, you could pay Digital Pete a few hundred dollars to build it for you.
Under those terms it would still be a fine value. |
Mikirob,
I will be delighted to hear about your wife's experience building the Kit 1. I would certainly go for the best capacitors you can put in the amp – I do think they make a difference. I also recommend seeing if you can get one of these 274 B rectifier tubes from Brian. I did have a chance to compare it with the stock tube during the troubleshooting process and it is a better sounding tube in the amp.
As for me, I'm not rushing to replace the stock 300 B's that came with the kit. I understand that the Black Treasure tubes take quite a while to break in and I'm very happy with the sound I'm getting right now. I do think I'm going to get one of those relatively inexpensive Pangaea power cords from Audio Advisor one of these days.
I hope to build another Audio Note Kits one of these days. I'd like to do one of their phono preamp's or perhaps one of their DAC's. |
Tubegroover,
I hope you get to hear a SET with your De Capo's one day. If you do, let us know what you think. I don't feel like the Kit 1 runs out of gas with them, but only you can tell in your system and with the music you love. Again, I am in a medium-small room, so that certainly helps! :-) |
Rebbi,
I can relate to your transition as my own experience was near identical. My former amplifier was push pull and very high quality . It was 100 watt in ultralinear and switchable to 60 watt triode and used 6550 or KT88s. In absolute terms this amp has more bass weight and impact , however the gap was narrower than I expected. The SET bass in terms of texture, tone and bloom is more realistic. Impact is definitely enough for my needs. In all other parameters of music reproduction the SET is superior and in all the ways you have pointed out so clearly. Once I got the SET, returning to the PP amp it sounds mechanical and lacks the natural fluidity flow of the 300b
SET. As you noted with your D. Krall example, my SET has superior resolution, transparency and clarity/articulation.
Charles, |
