High End Audio-Gaining Higher Ground?

Soix, I'm with you. When I look at my grandkids, I'm constantly baffled that all these guys want to do is play video games or are constantly texting someone. Maybe we'd have been the same way IF we'd had all the electronic stuff to play with that they have. I remember crystal sets and when the hottest high-end gear was all mono. I'm dating myself, of course.
Elizabeth also hit it on the head!

Remember the Star Trek The NExt Generation episode called "The Game"?

Very prophetic, not just about the possible effects and impacts of addictive games, but how technology really does seem to be overtaking and wearing us all down, hopefully not for the slaughter.

In the context of the entire population we audiophiles are barely a rounding error -- maybe one or two percent of the population at best. I think we're predisposed genetically to appreciate quality recorded and reproduced sound and that percentage will probably remain constant, so to me "converting" people outside this small population is a fool's errand. Unfortunately, and as pointed out by several above, behavioral, technological, and societal changes will probably prevent a good portion of the new 1-2% from ever hearing a good system to plant the seed. Which is sad since good quality sound is probably more affordable now than at any time I can remember.

Every generation probably says this about the next and maybe I'm just getting old, but I feel a little sad for my kids and the world they're heading into. Younger folks can't seem to stop to enjoy or appreciate anything (except maybe for video games), and even if they do they're compelled to whip out their phones to video it or text someone else about it. Just take a look at the crowd during a baseball game. Pure inner enjoyment and satisfaction seem like they're dying in the wake of constant multitasking and voyeurism, which don't really lend themselves to high-end audio. And with technology in our lives increasing at an increasing rate it seems like this will only get worse. Ugh.

"06-19-14: Noromance
Agree with jmcgrogan. The 1% conspiracy to extract as much profit from every body while dumbing them down with endless tasks, taxes and rules has succeeded."

Now I've heard it all. With that attitude, you'll never have anything and it will always be someone else's fault. There's plenty of money out there. If you don't have any, you're the one to blame, not some fictitious 1%. If you are looking for a good conspiracy, try UFO's.

I don't know what will happen to high end audio, but the thought of it continuing as we know it seems unlikely. Two reasons which have to do with the median age (between 55-60) of hifi enthusiasts come immediately to mind.

As I'm about to turn 60 I can still remember sitting around with my buddies, listening intently to albums. It was a social event. I also recall sitting alone listening to music, and I know my friends were similarly engaged. When I was home I was much more interested listening to music or reading than watching tv. Music was a major part of our lives, buying albums, reading music publications, trading albums, it was what we did. And I wasn't part of a small minority in my age group.

Now I watch my grandkids interact with their friends. It ain't the same. They are gathered around the video game console or immersed in their cell phones. Nothing wrong with their behavior, just different than my experience.

The other missing ingredient is the local hifi shop. I now live in Indianapolis where there are only a few hifi shops. And what these shops specialize in are upper level gear. My first system consisted of a Harman Kardon receiver, BSR turntable and Tech Hifi store brand speakers. That was heaven to my teen ears. It was also fun shopping and picking it out. Not sure my seventeen-year-old grandson could find that same experience. Without these specialty shops to browse/drool over sparkling new equipment, the seeds aren't planted.

Of course these are only two of the reasons high audio as we know it seems doomed. The music experience along with an abundance of dealers were a major influence on my early years as an audiophile.

The issue I have with high end is mostly with the retail end of things. They barely do anything to promote music (ever see a small concert at an audio salon? No? Me neither), and apparently are happy with business as usual...I asked somebody at Goodwin's (nearby extreme high end shop) if they could put me on the email list for upcoming demos...they said they don't have an email list. I've mentioned concerts coming up in my town that audio sales dudes are oblivious to, modern concerts I've mixed recently in other towns with major jazz dudes they haven't heard of...it's amazing. There seems to be no promotion of the experience of "active listening," and I can bet that if you ask residents of this crowded area I live in if they've even heard of the two local high end shops, 99% would say no. You get what you've earned I suppose, and that's a shame.

Very interesting topic indeed. I have three points, first in regards to comparison with car brands and the idea that Toyota is poor quality as compared to Mercedes. You confusing grade with quality, without a doubt a Toyota is of lower grade than Mercedes, but it would it would be difficult to prove that Toyota is of lesser quality. The Toyota was delivered exactly to spec, meeting all the criteria that the owner purchased no more no less. The fact that the Mercedes has wood trim instead of plastic does not impact the quality of the Toyota.
My brother once owned Range Rover, the best car ever he swore, all the luxury you could ever want. But when you open the passenger door the door gasket would fall off, if you opened the glove compartment you couldn’t get it closed again. That is poor quality, who cares whether there is wood trim on the face of glove compartment, if you can’t close it!
I think this misunderstanding of quality applies to audio too. An Ipod provides lower grade playback, but there is no doubt that the quality of the device surpasses most of what is produced and called high-end.
The next point is regarding the next generation, I consider myself younger than the average audiophile. So to some degree I am part of this next generation. I also have two young boys (1-1/2 and 5) and since the day they came home from the hospital they have listened to music. My five year old is an opera fan and bugs me to turn on the system to listen his favorites. Hopefully this trend will last. There is a lot of positives from this hobby and I try and encourage my kids to listen and appreciate the music and understand how it gets to their ears. I am not worried that there will not be an “audiophile” or music loving audience in the future.
My big concern is on the supply/technology side. What are the manufacturers and designers of today doing to ensure that the know-how and experience of the last 70 years is being passed on? Who is going to be designing and building the amps and turntables of the future? If we as the audience are asking will there be a future, do you think there are many kids coming out engineering school saying “I want to design tube amps, for the only three audiophile that are left!” It is one thing to be passionate about coming home at the end of the day and listening to your favorite music, but is a whole other thing to have the passion to devote your career to what appears to some to be a dying industry.
Ralph (Atmasphere), what are you doing, who is going to take over once you retire?

i have been doing the rounds recently investigating valve amps. i have found some dealers to be quite insular, to look down on modern dance music and generally exhibit the kind of attitude that would keep young folk from becoming customers.

Atmasphere,
I'm intended to use and purchase only solid OAK furniture for my dwelling for various reasons.
A marketting price for high-end furniture is important. It also substantially more pricey vs. composit furniture, but money spent for value and built quality.
If audio or any high-end isn't about value and built quality, than it's going to dissapear with last adict living as mentioned by previous posters.

I have two girls, one in HS and one in college. Both love music and spend much time listening and discussing music. They have been with me on many vinyl store trips and have come to really like artists that they have heard me play. They will request I play different tunes on my system for them but they listen from an adjacent room. They like the music but don't thirst for the high fidelity like we do.

I am kind of glad that they focus on the musical and lyrical content.

"High End" has everything to do with *intention*. It is not about marketing or price.

I've noticed a myopic viewpoint here. Go to the Munich High End show and see if you still feel the same way. What you will see there is families with baby carriages and about 4x as many women as you do at shows here. Overall, a lot more kids. There is actually something we are up to here in the US that is causing the mainstream of the market here to be males over the age of 45!

Mapman, It's all good, but BS is most profitable and more BS implies to more profits. Profit is addictive! What you need to do to get more profit? Throw more BS and see what happens. It's just reality. If one BS doesn't work, think of another one and so on and so forth.
BS is part of any BuSiness.

I think of "High End Audio" ambivalently.

It has admirable goals yet often questionable methods.

Its like atomic power, which has a lot to offer, but also spawned Godzilla, just like High End audio has spawned entities like MAchina Dynamica. :^)

"High End" is pretty much a marketing term for traditional hifi gear and components that target peoples desires to have the best possible sound in their homes.

The term is a lot of the problem. PEople will always seek high quality sound with their music, just to different degrees and in differnet ways to adapt with modern lifestyles. Just look around you and you will see that modern lifestyles are increasingly mobile. Great mobile sound can be had for a pittance in comparison to "high end audio".

It's merely natural selection at play and guess who is the dinosaur and going to lose? Or at least never grow beyond a boutique industry that largely targets wealthy gullible fools? There is a niche for everything I suppose...

High End Audio needs to cut through all the BS and just deliver the goods in a manner that works better for everyone. THen we will all live happily ever after.

Agree with jmcgrogan. The 1% conspiracy to extract as much profit from every body while dumbing them down with endless tasks, taxes and rules has succeeded.

I've worked for fifteen years in a college arts program with bright young people whose lives are devoted to the arts of all kinds and I've met very few who had interest in our audio passion. Jmcgrogan2's response is pretty much spot on in my opinion. Young people's lives are an exercise in constant multi-tasking and the concept of sitting in one spot doing one thing - listening to music - strikes them as very odd. I work at a state university, not an ivy league school. The majority of our arts program students are so swamped in accumulating student debt they can't conceive of the time they'll be able to buy their own home much less afford a good audio system to put in it! I seriously think the rapidly escalating cost of college is going to negatively affect many aspects of our economy as discretionary income shrinks because of ballooning student loan payments. I know far too many people in their thirties with advanced degrees and six figures of student loan debt.

Very good indepth answers above, too bad you guys weren't
present at this particular meeting with the so called
reknowned audio engineers, it would of made for a much more
interesting session.

Bcgator, that is a very good question, I'm not sure what
constitutes a high end system, that would be an excellent
thread to initiate on it's own. Ask a question here on
audiogon what is the best preamp, amp, and speaker
combinition you will get a hundred different answers. I
suppose if you have been listening to a table-top radio for
the past few years anything above that could be considered
higher end. Lets go with that analogy.

well from a 33 white male I don't see audio ever being more then a very esoteric hobby.

Listen its way to expensive for the vast majority of people. I buy used and people still think I am crazy. younger people don't have this kind of money period. I know doctors and lawyers who are so far in debt that I have more disposable income making way less.

Also you can barely hear Hi end audio anymore. Very few stores and the ones that do have Hi-FI carry only a few brands. Sorry its hard to justify buying something when you have no ideal what the market can offer at different prices points.

In addition the Hi-Fi stores I have been to have been very off putting. Very unwilling to show a younger person different systems and what is available. Rude and just not interested because I only bought $2000 dollar speakers. This is crazy. Treating todays customers like crap means you won't have them as older customers when they may have more money.

People are super busy having time to listen to music when there are 100 plus tv channels and the internet full of social media and information is unlikely. People don't put music ahead of these other forms of entertainment.

I don't usually agree with Elizabeth but this time she is right on the money!

I have to ask - when you guys talk about "high end", what exactly does that mean? I'm not asking to be argumentative, I'm asking genuinely, as I've seen these types of discussions but I don't know how to put them into perspective. Does "high-end" mean $10,000 systems? $50,000? $100,000? I completely appreciate that the answer is going to be nebulous, and may mean different things to different people, but there has to be some kind of baseline...where, once you spend $xxxx, you are officially "high end". I'd like to contribute to the thread, but need to understand the lay of the land first, so to speak.

Hi end audio will always be around. How many times have you all heard it was going to go the way of the large reptiles of eons past? and yet it is still here. The same is said about high end cars, art work, furniture, etc. Just because a few kids and a lot of adults don't know or care doesn't mean it is going away. As the statement says, you typically get what you pay for. There will always be someone that goes to a concert, either amplified or unamplified, purchase the music, take it home and state that it sounds like crap. Not all the time, but it does happen. Then that person will want to know why and guess what? That is how it starts. Make it less expensive? sure why not? but, I believe that audio equipment is just like the automobile industry. There are really low end cars, mid level cars, high end cars and stupidly high end cars. Just like audio equipment. Yet, Ferrari's, Porsche's, Mercedes SL 65's, etc. are still going strong. Why? many reasons. same as for high end audio. 1) Some people really know and appreciate what properly recorded music is suppose to sound like and will hunt for the equipment that will as accurately as possible reproduce that sound, 2) Some people just want the best period, even if they never listen to it. I'm sure there are many other answers to add. But all one has to do is look around. Clothes, well you can shop at Macy's, JC Penny's, H&M, Walmart, etc. But, if you can afford it and appreciate good quality clothing, well, what would you buy? Remember, I said, if you can afford and also "appreciate" Which some simply cannot. Do you appreciate a good quality watch? Have they stopped developing high end watches because people have cell phones? Absolutely not! Breitling, Rolex, Patek, etc. Are going strong. My point is that the audio industry isn't going away. It evolves like any other industry, but there will always be some out there that want that "real sound". Using quality machines, that aren't made of plastic, that do the job correctly. I have no problem with extremely expensive equipment. Same for houses, cars, watches, etc. I know what I can and can't afford, and what lifestyle I want. People find out this stuff as they grow, mature and learn, and if they don't, well....My daughter appreciates the difference between a Toyota and a Mercedes SL. She can see the cheap plastic, poor quality construction, etc. But, she also knows that you get what you can afford, until you can afford better. She's a dancer and is now 24 and has been dancing since she was 4. Ballet, Modern and Jazz. She would come into my listening room as a kid and not say a word and simply dance to my music. Wonderful. She went to college and came back listening to Jazz music and bringing friends over to listen to their music on my system so they could hear the difference. Sorry for the long response, but the industry isn't going away. Certain manufacturers may, and the state of the art will continually improve. Hopefully, so will my income so that I can buy those darn Audio Research REF 250 amps. Anyway, sit back and enjoy

No. High End Audio is not gaining Ground. High End Audio was never better. just different. Folks just tried to chase the sound of yesterday with aging hearing problem. I'm one of them.
Young adult have better ear for all sound of music, they are enjoying the music of today going forward.
There is no different between audio and video technology. They all get better yearly.

There will always be a market for good music and good sound.

What constitutes "good" though will always vary widely and be mostly a matter of personal opinion. There is little concrete to support the case that high end audio is "better", but there is no doubt some will have very high standards compared to others yet each will still slay the beast their own way, usually on a limited budget.

So things like cost, efficiency, scale, features ALL matter. Just differently to different folks. The stereotype audiophile is truly a dinosaur, set in the ways of the past while the world changes around them. No kid wants that. Maybe when they get older, and listening habits change, some might come around a bit.

My daughter plays violin in school orchestra and has a fantastic ear for music. My son loves things unique and of good quality. Both listen to music often. NEither could give a rat's arse about my toys, as best as I can tell. Nobody but me even has any clue how to work it all.

I don't sell high-end, but I sell vinyl and have huge underaged crowd visiting my store and buying records. The youngest one is only 9 y.o. I remember most of them and their parents, but it's getting harder and harder to remember because it's increasing.
Vinyl is great start into this area, because music is what actually counts. The best music is still released mostly and mostly again on vinyl.
As to the REAL high-end, I don't want to teach my kids to buy $2000 wire or $4000 isolation platform and test it how it sounds. If one parent's kids saying it's insane, than they're 100% correct and wise and one of the cases when parents should listen to their kids.

P.S. Totally agree with Zd and Mapman

One of the speakers mentioned that his son was not the least bit interested in his rig and if something was to happen to him, his son stated it all would be put up for sale on Ebay.

As a father of 3 sons ages 30, 27 and 23, I can fully relate with that line. My boys always thought my "obsession" was a frivolous waste of time and money. I'm sure that all of my gear would be sold within a month should I become incapable. Times have changed, values have changed.

As with any other complex issue, there is no one clear cut reason like poor recordings, as Response34 suggests. Surely poor music quality is one of the issues facing the younger generation, but so are shorter attention spans and lack of income. The world is much different now than it was 35 years ago. Things move much faster, and money is tighter. I was in much better financial shape when I was my children's ages than they are today. The middle class has eroded greatly over the last 30+ years. Today, my sons have their plate full just trying to get by, none of them own a home, and all are college educated and working in their fields.
Looking at how the prices of high end audio have skyrocketed in the last 10 years, this is no surprise, as the top 1% gain more and more at the expense of the rest.

Multitasking and time constraints is another big reason. Today's younger generation is not as likely to sit and listen as we did years ago. There are so many other entertainment options available today versus 30+ years ago. Not only do my sons have zero interest in expensive audio toys, but none of their friends have any interest either. They do listen to music, but they find no difference between expensive gear and an iPod for the music they listen to. Plus, they tend to multitask while they are listening too, playing video games and/or social networking while listening through their ear-pods.

Every generation is different, there is no right or wrong way to live. Maybe NOT spending $100K on a system is a GOOD thing for many of today's youths. Hell, had I foreseen the prices of systems today 40 years ago, I probably would have chosen another hobby for myself, LOL!!

The industry destroyed itself. Its their own fault. Look what they did with video. The major formats went from VHS to DVD, and now to Blu Ray. Why did people buy DVD's? Because the picture quality is better than VHS. Now everyone's buying Blu Ray's because the picture quality is better than DVD. The video industry sells new technology based on better quality. Same thing with video games. Playstation 1, 2, 3 and 4. With each new generation, the quality is better. Not so with audio. The industry is focused on selling features, not quality. The audio industry makes such stupid decisions, it looks like they're trying to put themselves out of business on purpose.

Talk to anyone of any age, and they'll tell you the same thing, "I don't care. My this-or-that sounds good 'nough to me. I'm not trying to recreate a concert hall in my home." And most people, especially those in their 20s and 30s, don't have the space or the dollars even if they did care more.

What's far more important is music education. It starts at home, gets traction in elementary school, and takes off in high school. When was the last time your kids heard a symphony orchestra? A piano recital? Pop music is easy and automatic, but there's a gigantic world of music far beyond the top 40 chart. Expose them. You can't be expected to appreciate good sound if all you know is the sound of over processed pop. Open their ears to Music, then you can talk about audio.

how about making it easier and more affordable? That might help.

Problem is, kids get much better music and sound quality VALUE!!! out of the various portable devices and services available today than they likely could with a traditional hifi. And that is assuming that they they would know how to get the sound they want out of it.

Injecting the sound directly in one's ears is a much more practical and efficient process than listening in a room on speakers. Unless of course one really values room acoustics, soundstage, imaging, etc., which most do not.

If you look at what is happening in the independent music scene, the trend has been towards the LP for a long time (about 20 years).

The issue has to do with how relevant high end audio is, and the conditions that exist here in the US; after being at the Munich show, I can tell you that things are very different in Europe!!

Here in the US, there is a big push for digital and has been for a long time. It is that that is killing music, not because high end digital sucks, but because low end (mp3) sucks. In essence, people don't want to listen to it as much and an iPhone with ear buds is sufficient.

But kids do recognize that there is something more which is why the LP does so well in the underground, from which most music innovation arises. It would be a mistake BTW to assume that all of it is poorly recorded.

We are active in the local music scene and I think any audio manufacturer should be to cultivate the next generation.

I don't think its a lack of interest in high end audio but more a lack of appreciation of music by the younger generation.
If you listen to todays music, it becomes obvious that no matter how good the system, it will still sound like crap.
High end audio is not fading but rather quality music.
Today's fast pace life styles are far too happy with downloaded music on their iPhone played through a pair of overpriced Beats headphones.
Before we can bring high end audio back, we need to bring quality music back.