Sorry for the long delay in getting my thoughts together, it's been a hectic week at work. As I mentioned I went on a preamp listening tour last week and this past weekend, trying to hear several tube preamps on my list in situations where I'd have a chance to fairly compare them. There is no scientific way to do this, so I did the best I could. I am not great at describing my listening thoughts, these are my comments, on my experience, and in NO WAY is meant to be disrespectful and any equipment or anyone's preferences. Also no way to compare one of my finalists, the Aric Audio Motherlode XL 6SN7 preamp.....but I have had several occasions to hear his Super 6SN7 Linestage, which is where I learned of Aric's products.
On several of these trips (not the first trip with ARC REF 5 SE and Rogue RP-9), I was with my golfing buddy and fellow audiophile Patrick (who is luckily enough to not have some of my financial constraints), and is moving on from integrated amps to separate preamps and amps in two systems.....my wife bailed, probably a good decision for both of us.
My thoughts are listed in the order I demo'd them:
- Rogue RP 9 $7,500 (was offered $7,000) – A really really good preamp. I found it hard to get into a critical listening session, it just involved me into the music. Strong points: quiet background, wide and high soundstage (not overly deep), instrument placement was really good but a bit forward on the stage, great detail, bass attack and clarity were excellent, highs were very detailed, instrument details (decay, edges, string plucks) quality much better than my current setup, thankfully this pre is good with the types of music that I listen to. Weak points: midrange and vocals were just a touch “off” maybe dry without as much tube warmth I’m looking for, a tad too revealing on lesser recordings (The Church “Under the Milky Way Tonight)….shows what is in the music, bass not as deep as others, not physically impressive as some other options….almost ordinary. I did not expect this preamp to be this good going into it.
- ARC REF 5SE – A very good preamp, and technically excellent. Very attractive preamp, certainly a statement piece. I did not feel I was in the music, but listening to the music (if that makes sense at all), dealer wanted to start with classical music and jazz were much more engaging made them more enjoyable than I am accustomed to, very detailed, wide soundstage if not as high and deep, vocals had excellent detail but was missing more tube like sound, bass was very good….if just a touch rounded. Once started listening to my music, I guess I expected more; no doubt this is excellent. this was also a 7 year old unit with over 3000 hours on it, a few scratches on the top and sides that didn’t bother me….but one on the faceplate that was irritating to look at. Directly compared to the Rogue RP-9 at same location
- BAT VK-80 $10,000 (I was offered a bit less) – First off, it’s just too expensive for me even with discounts, but it was available and many have recommended it......and it's on Patrick's list. This preamp is a work of art, just stunning, and it’s performance is excellent. Take all of the best parts of the ARC REF 5SE and this preamp is a bit better in most respects. Better deep bass, faster and more controlled, great instrument placement, soundstage the best I’ve heard to date, quite involving, balanced and revealing but in an enjoyable way…..no harsh edges, smooth, has some of that tube magic that I like. I could live with this as my final preamp at this point in my journey. Directly compared to the Rogue RP-9 at second location.
- Backert Labs Rhumba 1.4 $5,000 – Really a very good preamp, but not as good as the Rogue RP-9…….I really didn’t spend too much time listening to it. It wasn’t as good as the Rogue RP9 in some respects, and it certainly wasn’t as good as what I heard next. Directly compared to the Rogue RP-9 and the Backert Labs Rhumba Extreme 1.4 at the same location.
- Backert Labs Rhumba Extreme 1.4 $8,500 (offered new for $7,200) – Damn! I would loved to have the BAT VK-80 on hand to do a head to head comparison. Take my BAT notes and cut and paste here, maybe better? Really involving, lovely vocals, fast and smooth (I know, mutually exclusive), detailed without any hint of sharp edges, quiet, really good dynamics, goes deep with nice attack….not at all flabby, really physically attractive in a retro kind of style….well made. I could live with this as my final preamp, at least at this point in my system. Directly compared to the Rogue RP-9 and the standard Backert Labs Rhumba 1.4
- Aric Audio Motherlode XL $6,125 - I have never heard this preamp directly, but have heard Aric's Super 6SN7 paired with a CODA amp on several occasions. I wanted to keep a 6SN7 based preamp in my final decision; and this one makes it based on previous experience with his other preamp, 6SN7 based, balanced AES48 standard, terrific reviews by some good people, have read dozens and dozens of positive user experiences with his equipment, quality of parts, and many great communications back and forth with Aric.
I'll add another post later tonight or tomorrow with final thoughts, and conclusions.
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Final thoughts, and what I did (actually Patrick purchased too). I decided to purchase the Aric Audio Motherlode XL 6SN7 preamp. In the end I just like the idea of having a handmade point to point wired preamp, that is relatively easily upgraded if need be. I have had nothing but excellent communications with Aric, and have seen nothing but excellent reviews from owners on his equipment. I did get one upgrade, a set of "Bad Boy" Sylvania 6SN7 tubes......I will still have lingering thoughts on the Backert Labs Rhumba Extreme 1.4, that was a great preamp.
My friend purchased the BAT VK-80 preamp, I had it right up there with the Backert Rhumba Extreme personally.....but he certainly did love the sound and looks of the BAT
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@vthokie83 your finalists are all well respected preamps. Congratulations on the new Aric Audio Motherlode XL! I hope after receiving it you can break away from the music long enough to let us know how satisfied you are!
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Thanks jc4659, it's about 12 weeks out in production......so maybe May?
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A good grouping!
My experience with the Backert has been positive - except that the sound sounds a bit manufactured - not musical or organic.
I love the LTA gear, but overall, the pre sounds thin compared to real life.
A Pre to try is the Coincident Pre...uses the transformers to drive the sound and their product/reputation is pristine.
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@paul_lindemann Just wondering which Backert preamp did you experience? I have the Rhumba Extreme and was initially a little disappointed. It came with re-issue Gold Lion's which to me sounded congested. I contacted Andy Tebbe at Backert Labs and had it upgraded to 1.4 status and it still sounded congested. He suggested trying his "secret mystery" tubes and voila, sounded much better. I was then on a quest to find even better tubes and settled on Amperex 7316's which I've seen recommended here by other users. It now lives up to its reputation. I agree with your assessment of LTA gear.
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For what the Rhumba 1.4 Extreme sells for new it should not sound congested. I can't imagine that's typical. Wondering if you gave the "upgrades" long enough to break in.
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It was the re-issue Gold Lion tubes that made it sound congested. Switching to NOS tubes made all the difference.
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Yowser,
I heard the Rhumba 1.4 and the Rhumba Extreme 1.4, but the standard Rhumba was outclassed by the Rogue RP-9 and certainly by the Rhumba Extreme; and it did not sound congested....but I do not remember which tubes came with the stock unit. At that quality level, I bet it comes down to system synergy, and the NOS tubes are a better match. I replaced all "re-issue" tubes in my amp with NOS tubes, and that made the difference.
Aric Kimball (Aric Audio)
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Sorry, that last post got cut off.
Aric Kimball suggested the NOS tubes supplied with his amp were excellent, but I did order it with the upgraded Sylvania "Bad Boy" tubes. I was willing to upgrade elsewhere if Aric thought it was warranted, but the 6SN7 tubes were the only place he suggested.
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I am a 1.3 extreme owner. I wish to touch on one topic only; that being choice of music. If you do get one of these be aware it will show every piece of beauty and flaws from a signal. In many ways it's a slave to the signal and simply a straight line with gain. But I would never dream of starting a system without a preamp. Very neutral with a sight tinge of tube.
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Stay away from those high priced boutique brands . I always took the Prima Luma pill. That guy Kevin is heck of salesman . It has to been a reason why so many of the are on the pre owned market .
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I chose a Supratek Cabernet a few years ago, had some problems with it initially and had to ship it back for new power supply, was thinking about the Moderlode from Aric Audio, Aric was great to correspond with also, I choose to give Mick a chance to repair my pre amp and am very happy I did that, the Cabernet sounds fantastic with my Belles sa30 power amp, so I am very happy.
Choosing a tube pre, one has to know what kind of sound one wants, in my humble opinion if the sound is close to a solid state sound, then I would just choose a solid state one, no tube hassle 😜.
For me I would not hesitate buying a Supratek again as the sound is sublime, also buying from Aric would be very tempting, reading all the positive reviews and feedback from consumers, also I don’t think there is a much nicer or helpful guy in audio.
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@vthokie83 Do you have a balanced input on your amps?
FWIW, since this is likely all moot at this point, the MP-3 has a patented direct-coupled output which sets it apart from the others of your list and audition.
If the Backert Labs was balanced, it would have been the only other preamp on your list that supports AES48 (the balanced line standard) other than the MP-3; it uses an output transformer for that.
The balanced line standard helps prevent interconnect cables from causing a coloration. If you have ever auditioned and heard a difference between interconnect cables, you know what I'm talking about.
If your amplifier uses a single-ended input, then using a balanced preamp won't help out.
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Ralph,
I certainly appreciate your input, and yes one of my amps does have balanced inputs. I ultimately went with the Aric Audio Motherlode XL preamp, and it has one balanced and one unbalanced output.....two balanced and two unbalanced inputs. Though I did not speak specifically with Aric about the AES48 standard, his website for the preamp does specifically say the balanced connections support AES48.
I also purchased a CODA S5.5 amplifier which has balanced and unbalanced connections, but it does not specifically say whether it supports AES48
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Though I did not speak specifically with Aric about the AES48 standard, his website for the preamp does specifically say the balanced connections support AES48.
@vthokie83 The inputs do but not the output.
As far as I can make out the Coda supports the standard.
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