I am looking to find a nice pair of speakers that will work well in a relatively small dedicated listening room. My setup is 100% analog, tube amp, turntable, phono pre. I am trying to keep a minimalist approach.
So far I have been looking around at a lot of options and while I don't want to limit myself to 94 dB+ efficient speakers. I would like to be able to keep my Decware MiniTorii in place if possible.
LegacyAudio Signature SE is top on my list, little bit more than I wanted to spend, but this is a lifetime purchase. I have also looked at SalkSound Veracity ST but I am concerned about the Decware amps being able to push those. I have also looked at the Decware HR-1s which look impressive.
Of course its difficult to buy speakers without hearing them, any other recommendations/suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Also if anyone has heard the Legacy Audio Signatures with a Decware amplifier and has any details, that would be spectacular.
If you like Salk, I'd think the Exotica series would work best,
I heard some Legacies powered by Raven amplifiers--it certainly didn't lack for dynamics, but I believe they're all 20 watts or more, Unfortunately, I don't recall the models involved.
The only other high efficiency option that I've heard & liked (enough to remember, at least) and also isn't excessively huge or expensive is Reference 3A.
IMHO, using a 4 watt tube amplifier, only high efficiency speakers should be considered. The LegacyAudio Signature SE is listed at 92db, however that is room sensitivity at 2.83v. Since it is a 4 ohm speaker, 2.83v is 2 watts and the 1 watt rating will be 3db lower. Also, room sensitivity is 2-3db higher than anechoic chamber. So a 1 watt rating anechoic chamber is ~87db.
The Decware HR-1 is also a 4 ohm speaker, however the specification is listed at 1 watt and not 2.83v. For 8 ohm speakers 2.83v is 1 watt, so no adjustment is necessary.
gdhal, what turns me off about the Golden Ear is the complexity of the electronics. I am really shooting for a minimal approach, which is what I enjoyed so much about the single driver speakers. I do realize that the Signature SE speakers are more complex with a crossover, so I don't have my heart set on them per se, but I want more flexibility in what I can listen to, something the Mark Audio A12P speakers I have today don't allow me.
The HR-1s I know will work with the MiniTorii, as well as being great with the Torii Jr if I decide to upgrade. I don't have a great deal of room to bring the speakers out into the room, so sealed speakers have its benefits.
Height is not an issue on these speakers, but I need to keep the width and depth closer to 14". My SuperPensils are 25" deep, it doesnt flow with the room that well.
@hifiron I GET (pun intended) what your saying about the Triton complexity and I'll buy that. Actually you make a good point. Also, note that I initially suggested the Triton's given your room dimensions. I didn't mention anything about dimensions initially but seeing that you just stated the dimensions you prefer (i.e. you need to keep the width and depth closer to 14"), the Triton's would work for you at least from a dimensional perspective. .
Ron, I recently was able to do an in-home audition of a set of Legacy Audio Signature SE, paired with a Raven Audio Blackhawk Limted integrated tube amp(20 wpc). My, oh my, what beautiful sound! This audition was conducted by connecting my Oppo BDP-83 universal player directly to an analog input on the Blackhawk, using Audio Art IC-3 interconnects and Audioquest CV-8 speaker cables. The two musical pieces I used were the SACD version of Phantom of the Opera soundtrack and the CD of Sade Lovers Rock.
On the Phantom of the Opera, the mid range was fantastic, with vocals very pure and individual vocalists easily placed in the image. The Signature SE cabinets are just so inert all over them, such that you can hurt your knuckles if you rap the speakers too hard. The best thing about them is the Air Motion ribbon tweeter and mid driver, which offer vocals with no coloration at all. As illustrated with Sade's Lovers Rock, the bass is also impactful but very nicely defined when reproducing electric bass.
Regarding the Signature SEs, I've also recently listened at brick and mortar shops to some other speakers that sell in the $7K price range, and generally they are smaller, and use 7 or 8 inch woofers, resulting in less bass prowess and extension, and they never have the ribbon tweeter technology that you get with the Legacy. For overall performance and value, I keep coming back to the Legacy.
Hope this helps!
I personally would prefer at least a bare minimum of 10 or 15 watts on the Signature SE's, but if they are affordable, this is a well thought out, well designed speaker. Nothing wrong with the Salk's either, but according to their charts, they are 85db sensitivity anechoic.... I would want a minimum of 50 watts on those....
Something seems amiss here...the Triton 1 has 10 drivers, and the Signature SE has two 10" woofers. You did say the room is 11x12x10 yes? Am I the only one who thinks those speakers are too large for an 11x12 room?
@mtrot thanks for the pic, they are impressive towers for sure!
@bcgator yes, room is 11' W x 12' 4" L x 10' H.
@timlub definitely a little more than I originally wanted to spend, but this is a lifetime purchase and I don't want to be penny-wise and pound-foolish.
There is a great deal of research still to be done before I pull the trigger for sure. I do love the voicing of the Decware MiniTorii, but it does limit my speaker options for sure.
I am just a little turned off by most consumer tower speakers, and the boutique HiFi audio is for sure out of my price range. I think that is why Decware gear sits so well in my eyes, great performance:value ratio in my opinion.
That said, where we are. Am I ludicrous for looking at the Signature SEs for this room? Doug over @ Legacy said they would be a good fit for the room, since they are sealed they can be put fairly close to the rear well.
@tls49 I have looked at the Zu's quite a bit, actually I was very close to pulling the trigger on the Zu Omen Mk.II towers right when I started looking for my refresh a few months ago.
I have to say, the amount of Zu Audio gear for sale on A'gon does concern me a little.
"Am I ludicrous for looking at the Signature SEs for this room? Doug over
@ Legacy said they would be a good fit for the room, since they are
sealed they can be put fairly close to the rear well."
Ron, maybe Doug mentioned it, but the Signature SE do include a switch on the back, by which you can reduce the bass, I think by 2dB, in case the bass loads the room up too much.
@hifiron I have heard the Signature SE with 600 watts of Coda on them. Even with that, they are velvety smooth, but still detailed.... You have a ton of flexibility with those..
I would explore the zu line more . Jmho .. alot of people upgrade spkrs here "The chase for absolute sound" that only makes for some great used deals .. pro ac come to mind also .. best of luck
@grinnell good to know, I am not looking to make ears bleed by any stretch of the imagination. Ideally something that can handle a wide rang of music from Rock (Neil Young/Springsteen/Morrison) + Jazz (Coltrane/Davis/Evans) + Pink Floyd/Daft Punk and more.
I will check out the Zu line this evening as well, their prices are lower for sure.
@bcgator you are correct about the Triton One's having ten drivers (4 passive). However, (a) better to have too big than too little where speakers are concerned IMO and (b) the Triton's (all powered models) have a bass control. One can dial down (or up) the bass as much as 7.5 db (relative to flat position). Also, instead of the T1, a T3+ would work very nicely.
Mapman has a good point about corner placement and if that's the case look at AudioNote AN line they can be really good and excel in the corners. + one of the Proac speakers probable go bigger then the tablet though, wasn't too impressed with the Devore Fidelity Gibbon 8 heard them next to some Dyna audio 3 ways and the Dyas smoked them. I settled on some Living Voice Avatar 2 they are 94db and are very musical.
Ok so made some great progress on the research. There is an audio store close that has Vandersteen 1Ci speakers. Going to bring them home today to audition.
Resetting the price point as well as normalizing efficiency has brought me to a much smaller list of speakers to look at.
Decware HR-1 Living Voice Auditorium R3 Zu Audio Omen Def Mk II w/ Radian Tweeter Vandersteen 1Ci
I might be in the market to upgrade to Torii Jr or Torii Mk IV and potentially a pre-amp.
hifiron, I know that the Legacy Signature SE's would serve you well, but if you are afraid that the room is to small maybe you could look at the Studio HD's or the new Calibre from Legacy. If you feel that you needed more bass then add one of Legacy's sub woofers to the mix.
It's hard to beat the Legacy line, I spent over a year researching, listening, and traveling before I decided, and now I have a set of Focus SE's and a set of Studio HD's.
Doug, and Bill (and Victoria, Bill's daughter) are great people and will take the time to answer questions for you.
It would be worth your time to look at the Spatial Hologram M4. Clayton is well informed and will spend the time to discuss your front end. He also offers a long trial period to fully break in the speakers before deciding to keep them or not. His OB design has truly hit a sweet spot and in the words of my non audiophile wife, "I can hear the difference in these speakers." At least worth examining. I'm sold on them and to boot, they are an amazing buy at about $2K.
Ok so after about 6 hours of listening, I am thoroughly impressed with the Vandersteen 1Ci speakers! The beauty is my amp is plenty powerful to push them to sound great at levels louder than I would listen to in this room.
In addition to that, they fit well in the room and are quite a bit lower than I was originally going to spend. Just going to spend some time noodling on the HR-1 v. 1Ci, both of which would be powered by my current amp just fine.
Basically have narrowed it down to a more reasonable cost. Something I am more comfortable with.
Speaker Selection
Vandersteen 1Ci
Vandersteen 2Ce
Decware HR-1
Amplification
Keeping MiniTorii
Purchase Torii Jr
Purchase Torii Mk IV
Other Options
Replace PH3 with ZP3
Add CP3 Pre-Amp in front of MiniTorii for more gain
The Vandersteen 1Ci awards the most flexibility from a component perspective. I think adding more power than 4 watts per channel would be well received in the system. I could afford the massive Torii 25 watts per channel if I stick with the 1Ci or 2Ce.
The low end response at 26 Hz on the 2Ce is very impressive. That said, the 2Ce would require an upgrade to the amp to either the Torii Jr or Torii.
All the Vandy 2 series are a HUGE step up from the 1 series. Even considering your demo results, spare power would be beneficial; you might not notice it unless playing dynamic challenging music, but in the long you will appreciate having spare power & headroom from clipping.
My advice is to call John Rutan at Audio Connection, who is probably the #1 Vandy dealer. Ask him about getting a trade in 2 Series, as he likely has a steady stream of upgraders seeking Treo, 5 & 7 series etc.
If you are open to others than Dec amps consider used McCormack for SS or go with something from Rogue for tubes. Both are frequently paired successfully with Vandys.
2s will keep you happy for a long time and you can upgrade your other gear around them without them being the weakness for some time. I did. The 1s will leave you wanting more & soon. Cheers, Spencer
I agree with sbank on all counts. I think if you read the "Ask Richard" section on the Vandy website, you will see that Richard frequently recommends the 1 for folks with lower power tube amps, and tends to encourage more juice for the 2 and *way* more juice for 3. The only answer is a demo, though. At the very least, bring your amp to the dealer and listen at your normal levels.
As a Vandy owner, I think if you are considering the Vandy 1's or 2's, you should get at least one or better yet, a pair of 2w subs. Since the Vandy sub crossover (M5-HP) will filter out low frequencies, you probably wouldn't have to get a more powerful amp. Sbanks recommendation for Johnny Rutan is a sound one. He will give you lots of great information you can trust. I also +1, the recommendation for McCormack amps. I own the DNA-1 and MicroPower Drive. I am currently moving to Atma-Sphere amps and preamp. I haven't got things hooked up yet, but when I do, I'll let you know what I think, if you wish.
You probably don't need another option, but I just demoed the ProAc Studio 148 (at SoundImageATL--thanks Lawson!) and can't keep silent. They have excellent detail, but no harshness, amazing vocals, as well as surprising bass for the size--but most of all they just get out of the way of music & let you feel the emotion of the recording. Recommended for amps 15 watts & up (4ohm), but you certainly wouldn't need a sub (except for organ music).
I much prefer them to my experience of the Vandy 1's, but admit it isn't the fairest of comparisons as they're almost 3x more expensive & I was in a dedicated room, listening to my music from a Linn Majik 'integrated' thats more expensive than the speakers.
Vandersteen speakers have always had a synergy with McCormack gear. I am listening through Vandy Treo Cts powered by an SMc Audio modified McCormack DNA-1 amp as I type this.
For minimalist yet stunning looks, excellent efficiency, great dynamics, and quality sound, I suggest the Spatial Audio M3 or M2 Turbos. Lately I've been driving mine with a 3.5 watt tube amp and the sound is totally engaging, with a soundstage that is jaw-dropping. You shouldn't overlook these gems.
So after quite a bit more listening, the Vandy 1Ci sound good, but the amp is just not enough power. I am going to be taking the Vandy’s back to the dealer today and start outlining a couple scenarios.
Thank you all for the amazing help and opinions here, this is a tomb of great information for anyone looking for options to pair with a low powered tube amplifier and/or speaker options for a smaller room.
It is worth mentioning, Decware Torii @ 25WPC would be a great fit for the Vandy 1Ci, but with Richard suggesting thats not enough power for the 2Ce (due to the more complex internals) that makes it a tough call to guess on.
The 2Ce also have a rear firing woofer, which makes the proximity to the back wall very important, so much that it would be tough in my small room.
The 1Ci with the Torii are an option for sure. I will be talking with Steve @ Decware today to get his take on some options.
@wester17@bradf@nakamaye I am looking at the Spatial M line now... is this something that will function in this room. I don’t have the ability to pull the speakers far out into the room. Other words what type of breathing room do they need around them?
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2Ce are going to need too much power, and the voicing of the Decware Torii is just too sublime for me to walk away from it.
The 1Ci + Torii seems like it would be a killer combo. The HR-1 with the MiniTorii might work, but I feel that I may still want more power in the future. At 94 dB the Spatial M3s might be something that I can look into and keep my MiniTorii going for some time.
I would say your Spatials would need to be about 3 feet into the room to get optimal sound. The good news is that they are easy to slide in and out if you need to -- unless of course, you add the spikes to the bottom feet as I have done. The Spatials do need some breathing room. With the 90 day trial, you would be able to know for certain if they will work for your room or not. Clayton Shaw at Spatial is very good to answer questions like these.
You should call Clayton and talk to him, but he recommends about 3 feet away from the wall but the Spatial's seem to work well in large or small rooms. I use them in a large room, but in a near field setup. One of the design features is that the Spatial M series are very room friendly and get around interference waves by controlled directivity. I can attest to their outstanding sound especially at this price point. Just be certain you break them in for a long time and remember you have a 60 day trial period to get in your home auditioning.
Since you need an efficient speaker, I would also remind you about the Zu speakers. I own a pair of Union and a pair of Omen Bookshelf speakers. Both are quite capable-a little different from the Vandy's, but very listenable( I bought them to see what a speaker without a crossover sounded like). Like the Spatial's, they have a trial period for auditioning. They are also very nice to talk to.
Zu was great to talk to, the Zu Druid would be incredible, no amp change required.
Getting a lower priced speaker would give me the ability to get a different amp. Getting a different amp would def. give me more headroom regardless of speaker selection.
Tonight is going to be a good night full of research and red wine.
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