I am looking to find a nice pair of speakers that will work well in a relatively small dedicated listening room. My setup is 100% analog, tube amp, turntable, phono pre. I am trying to keep a minimalist approach.
So far I have been looking around at a lot of options and while I don't want to limit myself to 94 dB+ efficient speakers. I would like to be able to keep my Decware MiniTorii in place if possible.
LegacyAudio Signature SE is top on my list, little bit more than I wanted to spend, but this is a lifetime purchase. I have also looked at SalkSound Veracity ST but I am concerned about the Decware amps being able to push those. I have also looked at the Decware HR-1s which look impressive.
Of course its difficult to buy speakers without hearing them, any other recommendations/suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Also if anyone has heard the Legacy Audio Signatures with a Decware amplifier and has any details, that would be spectacular.
hifiron, I don’t doubt that the Spatial M4 Turbo S are fatiguing to you but am slightly surprised since I haven’t seen anyone else describe them that way.. Admittedly, I inquired for my own interests, as I’ve been eyeing the M3 Turbo S as my first set of decent speakers for a while. But with your and kalali’s opinions on their lack of synergy with rock music, I’m more hesitant now. Rock music is all I listen to. Maybe I should try to audition them with a more forgiving DAC, such as the NuPrime DAC-9 and a tube amp?
@kalali you're 10000% correct. Which is exactly on-point to what I found.
@figulager So far the Spatials don't fit my listening style or room. In my larger living room they sounded much less fatiguing but still had the same "front row" listening experience. If that is what you want these are amazing for the price.
On the Spatials - Saxophone Colossus was jaw dropping, as well as basically anything acoustic. As soon as you started throwing more complexity I couldn't enjoy more than one or two songs.
Ultimately that is why I have decided to keep looking...
The Vandersteens were the most forgiving to many types of music. If you're looking for a pair of speakers for a small room, that sound great with a wide range of amps and will allow you to listen to pretty much anything. Stop there. They're great!
If you want some more resolution, less complex crossovers, and ultimately a more transparent speaker, then I will let you know when I found what I am looking for. I might end up going back to the Vandersteen 1Ci's if this proves to be impossible at this price point.
So what am I leaning towards? Nothing yet. Spatials will be going back after the 45 day minimum trial is up. I am still entertaining getting the Decware ERRx or Vandersteens.
Most importantly have fun making these selections. They can be tiring but the payoff is huge in the end.
I’m also in the (slow) process of upgrading components in my second system and after listening to a bunch of different makes, models, and designs of speakers I have formed my own opinion. I am convinced that all other things being equal, the choice of speakers is highly dependent on the type of music played through them. Almost all open baffle and horn loaded speakers sounded awesome for small bands played in small venues - jazz, vocals, chamber classical music, etc. They image perfectly - little forward, with excellent soundstage. For rock, large orchestra classical music, I found them fatiguing. So you either need two systems or ultimately need to make a compromise when buying speakers if listen to wide range of music.
YMMV.
Edited - Speaking of open baffles, does anyone have experience with the Teckton OB Sigma open baffle model? Its reasonably priced and looks intriguing.
Yeah, in this price range, for a large space, the Spatial M4 is hard to beat. The Vandy 1Ci is much more suited for the smaller room in terms of enjoyable non-fatiguing highs.
A radial design might be the perfect sweet spot because of its crossover-less design for maximum transparency.
Vandy's will be the most forgiving for sure.
Doing some major thinking tonight, still have 2 more weeks for the minimum trial on the Spatials. Running for about 200 hours now.
Ron,If you want tubes, have you considered Atma-Sphere? A quick Google shows the Decware speakers priced at $2,500, the Vandy's are half that price. If the Vandy's win then they really are 'Dragon slayers'. Like the Spatial's, the design of the Decware's is interesting. Let us know what you hear. Thanks for the info on the Spatial's.
Spent a bit of time with the Spatials. The highs are not mellowing out as much as I would like right now. Very forward, still sounds great, just not sure its something I want to commit to yet. I have tried it with Tube and SS amps, the Tube amp is by far the better choice.
I have 30 more days in the trial left to make up my mind. If I decide to send them back I will be looking at the 1Ci's or the Decware ERRx speakers. The Decware ERRx speakers, being radials, would be less in your face, which might be ideal of my room.
@wester17 Nelson Pass's Adcom GFA-555 is great indeed. I am a convert to tubes, and while the Ayre AX7 I am testing sounds great, I want to get a tube amp with some more power.
I have had a conversation with Steve over at Decware and I am leaning towards the Torii Jr.
I've been primarily using an Adcom GFA 555, and the sound and sound- stage are excellent. I've also used a Carver CM-2002, and I've played with a little APPJ 64N with surprising results. These speakers are so efficient they will work well with most anything. After playing briefly with the APPJ, I decided I like the tube sound so much, I've got a Primaluna Prologue One tube amp coming. These speakers should be an excellent match for tube amplification.
@gdnrbob yes, definitely worth a listen. It is worth mentioning they're very sensitive to listening position. For example, 1' from the wall and they sound flat. 1.5' and they have such an amazing soundstage that I would put up against speakers much higher in cost.
@nakamaye thanks for the input, I will check out that amp. Going to be a journey for sure. Looking forward to it!
hifiron, FYI, there are some really good buys right now on new Anthem 225i integrates, at least still under warrantee. For essentially $1K and the Spatials you would have what I think is a killer set up for 50% of what you were going to pay for speakers. Some people probably aren't aware of the Anthem line, a Canadian company, that started out as Sonic Frontiers and I've always admired their no nonsense cost effective approach to audio componentry. They were best known for their tube equipment and now they are moving towards home theater, but I am really impressed with the 225i. At 225 wpc there is headroom galore for speakers and I think that headroom is valuable to control the bass on the Spatials. Of course with the efficiency of the Spatials I find that my listening takes place at ca 9 o'clock before it becomes pretty loud but with my mc cartridges into the mm input it gives me plenty of room for gain. The only caveat I have of the Anthem integrated is that the remote is not sensitive enough for critical volume control. It moves in relatively large jumps and I've not figured out how to get smaller increments. It is fine using my Nuprime DAC9 on digital playback as it has a really nice incremental volume control so I use it for fine tuning the volume. Unfortunately for vinyl and tape I am forced to go to the amp to tweak the volume. Otherwise I am eminently impressed with the Anthem and its full range of inputs and controls. Just my pennies worth on an amp choice but I've always been into cost effective purchases.
Not to hijack a thread, but,Audiotroy, could you expand upon your description of the Zu as 'colored'. PM me if you wish.
Hifiron, congrats on your choice. I was hoping you would go with the Vandy's, but a quick google of the Spatial shows them to be quite a handsome speaker. I haven't listened to them yet, but your positive reaction has piqued my interest.
Thanks for the response @nakamaye ! I am going to be doing some research on amps this evening for sure.
@martykl -- yep, and I have opted to keep the Spatials and look for a new amp. They are just incredible and worth focusing on replacing the amp with something that has more power but still just as musical as my Mini Torii.
Thanks for the input. I agree 100% with your observations.
I don't have a high end system and a lot of vintage equipment. Initially I used my Exposure XI/XIV preamp with the Exposure XII power supply, hooked up to a New York Audio Labs Moscode 300 (150 wpc). These were very sweet with the Spatial's but like others have said, if the amplifier isn't dead quite, the efficiency of the Spatial's will show that up, and I got a slight hum with this amp. Got a great deal on an Anthem 225i solid state integrated amp (225 wpc) which has an amazingly dark floor and it really makes the Spatial's sing for me. A tube set up is probably a great match up, but I'm a very happy camper as it is currently set up. BTW. I did insert another vintage amp in place of the NYAL amp, Marantz 140 (75 wpc), which is all solid state unlike the moscode NYAL and it actually seemed a bit warm to me, a shock actually.
@audiotroy thanks for the feedback, I agree, same with the Vandersteen 2Ce, too big for the room.
Also after talking with Clayton, he really outlined that the room nodes wouldn’t let a speaker play much below 40 Hz anyway.
I have just unboxed the Spatial M4 Turbo S’s, fantastic build quality. Great looking speakers too. Threw on some Jazz and the imaging blew me away. Put on some Pink Floyd and Neil Young and I was unimpressed... the bass was anemic and the treble was scratchy.
Initial quick run done, I am being true to the recommendation, don't really make any decisions before the first 24 hours. Ok, it was time to go pick up the Vandersteen 1Cis from the local shop to compare. While I was at the local shop, I also grabbed a Ayre AX7 (60W) to test with both pairs of speakers.
I put the Vandersteen 1Ci’s on my MiniTorii and honestly, I was much happier, they didn’t image as well, but they were more even, had much more bass, and overall easier to listen to.
This is where it get interesting... when I put the Ayre amp on the Spatials I got knocked out of my chair, again! The bass was there in full force, it was smooth and even, the highs weren’t nearly as bright (in a good way).
I have many more hours to put on the Spatials. I have high hopes, but it seems like I will have to be getting a new amp regardless of my speaker choice.
I have emailed Steve @ Decware to see if he has something that would match the more agressive load required by the Spatials.
Based on my room size and realistic price target (I don't know what I was thinking spending $6k on speakers) it is going to be down to the Spatial M4's and the Vandersteen 1Ci. They fit in the room well, and both have the potential to sound incredible.
I work at a great dealer, in NJ Audio Doctor, and I would like to chime in . Your room is really too small to do justice to the Legacy Signatures, the Cailbres would be a much better choice. The Legacy speakers are a fantastic buy and offer incredible performance for the money, we are dealers for them.
I would encourage you to consider that a great pair of speakers will be with you for the next 20 years if you choose wisely.
The Zu speakers are way too colored and although are an interesting speaker I think you can do way better.
The new Paradigm Persona bookshelves are the best new speakers on the market below $20k! They use the most advanced drivers currently on the market: a pure Beryillium tweeter and a pure 7 inch Beryillium midrange/bass driver, no other company not even Magico, Wilson, YG or any of the major uber loudspeaker companies offer a speaker with this level of driver quality even in $20-4ok speakers, and the Persona B cost $7k not $20k!
The new Persona B are 92 db efficient and can be driven with a small amplifier.
The transparency of these compact speakers is breathtaking, and they are incredibly holographic, with very tight well defined bass out of an elegant compact enclosure, I would give these a listen.
Absolutely! The Spatial M4 Turbo S's will be here on Saturday! The Vandersteen 1Ci's as well as a 60W Ayre AX-7 on Saturday as well.
I will be doing an audition of the 60W zero negative feedback SS amp as well as the Mini Torii. The Vandersteens will have to go back on Tuesday but I should get a good amount of hours in.
I bought the little known Tribute speakers ,the Bud Fried Towers Transmission line SERIES CROSSOVER . I ordered with the upgraded crossover. VH OIMP capacitors ordered with 1% quad matched, Jantzen Copper inductors,Path audio resistors . all matched under 1db total this has to be requested at time of order only 2 resistors,and 3 capacitors in total . Fantastic results dual 7inch Peerless Nomex drivers, and the hand matched Hiquphon Tweeter matched to within 1/2 db, all drivers from Denmark The timing and coherence is Excellent for little over $4k with standard outriggers 35hz to 25khz rear transmission line Beautifully streamlined Salk cabinets. 45H x8.5W x14D. A little known hidden gem if bought with this crossover .Parts connecxion the only one carry that These great precision resistors,check them out.
@timrhu thanks! yes, I am going to mess around with some options.
Much happier price range for me, going to audition the Vandersteen 1Ci's again and get the Spatial M4 S in as well.
I am not going to change my amp at this time, the Vandersteens were able to play loud enough to hear them, the new amp will provide more headroom, but the Decware voice is what I am looking for in an amp.
Only making the speaker decision will make this much easier. Focus on Spatial M4 v. Vandersteen 1Ci. Then decide to get the amp later if more headroom/dynamics are desired.
Thanks for the input, will report back when both speakers are in place.
If it hasn't been suggested already, look at the Decware site's white papers, particularly the papers referring to room acoustics and setup. In my square room I had trouble getting any realistic imaging, and this was with a pair of Thiel CS1.6 speakers which are said to have wonderful imaging. After reading a few of the tips on the Decware site I tried the diagonal set up and am now hearing the most holographic imaging I've ever heard. After two or so years with this setup it still blows me away. This is something you should definitely hear with the small Vandersteens.
One more point; the Vandersteen 2CEs will be overwhelming in your room. I had a pair and found it difficult to get the proper integration, but what really made me get rid of them was their physical domination of the room. Especially if you give them the room they need to work. They look like giant monoliths dominating the entire space. My two cents.
@timrhu yes, good point to be made here. Coherency and blending of drivers is going to be key.
Discussions with Steve - Open Baffles were recommended, HDT was not. Too analytical for the room.
After treating the room, I have noise floor down to 29 dB, very happy with this. When I started I was at 45 dB.
Current plan is to audition the Spatial M4's and the Vandersteen 1Ci's together.
Then I can make a decision based on voicing and performance of the speakers. I am also going to audition a 60W Ayre Zero Negative Feedback amp, to show the performance of each speaker with more power.
Eventually I will be getting a new amp, but I want to upgrade one component at a time. My local dealer has a good deal, I can start with the Vandersteens, then within 1 year get the purchase price in credit towards the 2Ce's if I decide to upgrade.
In a room that size, my experience says look for a pair of monitors or a tower with two drivers. My room is 12x12x8 and the problem I have with three or four way speakers is getting enough distance between ears and speakers for proper driver integration.
As been stated before, a McCormack amp would be a great synergistic and cost effective way to get more power. I have a DNA-1 with updates and it mates great with my 3a sig's. If you really want to go cheap (price-wise), a used Adcom 555 would give lots of power without sacrificing sound. I still have mine (30 years old) and it even gives the McCormack a run for the money. Mr. Pass could really design 'em.
@sbank yes, agreed. Looking at Open Baffles (Spatial), Radials (Decware HR-1) or the Vandersteens at this point.
I have only been able to hear the Vandersteen 1Ci in person, not enough power with my current amp, going to audition an amp with the 2Ce's this weekend perhaps.
Definitely avoid rear ported speakers if you must place them close to the wall. Many of the older designed British speakers were designed for use near the wall since many were built for smaller apartments. Totems are another brand that won't suffer too much from near wall placement.
After some advice, and exchanging pictures of the *challenging* listening room I have, the M4's would be the route to go.
I will be looking to refresh the amplifier. I do love the MiniTorii sound, but its days are numbered (at least in its current location).
Going to do some amp research tonight, Vandersteen 1Ci, 2Ce, or Spatial M4 S. All are fairly close and due to the reduction in price, do-able to get a nice amp at the same time!
As mentioned, Clayton can answer your room placement questions, but these speakers are very adaptable to various room situations. Here's a link to a review at NewRecordDay in which he places them in a small room and the results are still very pleasing. As far a power, the Spatial website recommends that both tube and ss amps have at least 5 watts of power. I've driven them on occasion with a 3.5 watt amp with stunning results, but I don't dare use this configuration much for fear of over-driving the amp and damaging the speakers. https://newrecordday.com/spatial-audio-m3-review/
@wester17 with the Spatial M3’s either Turbo or Turbo S do you have an idea if a 4 Watt into 8 Ω SET amp would do them justice? My concern is the Spatials are 4 Ω and the MT drops in power as the load moves away from 8 Ω.
Zu was great to talk to, the Zu Druid would be incredible, no amp change required.
Getting a lower priced speaker would give me the ability to get a different amp. Getting a different amp would def. give me more headroom regardless of speaker selection.
Tonight is going to be a good night full of research and red wine.
Since you need an efficient speaker, I would also remind you about the Zu speakers. I own a pair of Union and a pair of Omen Bookshelf speakers. Both are quite capable-a little different from the Vandy's, but very listenable( I bought them to see what a speaker without a crossover sounded like). Like the Spatial's, they have a trial period for auditioning. They are also very nice to talk to.
You should call Clayton and talk to him, but he recommends about 3 feet away from the wall but the Spatial's seem to work well in large or small rooms. I use them in a large room, but in a near field setup. One of the design features is that the Spatial M series are very room friendly and get around interference waves by controlled directivity. I can attest to their outstanding sound especially at this price point. Just be certain you break them in for a long time and remember you have a 60 day trial period to get in your home auditioning.
I would say your Spatials would need to be about 3 feet into the room to get optimal sound. The good news is that they are easy to slide in and out if you need to -- unless of course, you add the spikes to the bottom feet as I have done. The Spatials do need some breathing room. With the 90 day trial, you would be able to know for certain if they will work for your room or not. Clayton Shaw at Spatial is very good to answer questions like these.
@wester17@bradf@nakamaye I am looking at the Spatial M line now... is this something that will function in this room. I don’t have the ability to pull the speakers far out into the room. Other words what type of breathing room do they need around them?
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2Ce are going to need too much power, and the voicing of the Decware Torii is just too sublime for me to walk away from it.
The 1Ci + Torii seems like it would be a killer combo. The HR-1 with the MiniTorii might work, but I feel that I may still want more power in the future. At 94 dB the Spatial M3s might be something that I can look into and keep my MiniTorii going for some time.
So after quite a bit more listening, the Vandy 1Ci sound good, but the amp is just not enough power. I am going to be taking the Vandy’s back to the dealer today and start outlining a couple scenarios.
Thank you all for the amazing help and opinions here, this is a tomb of great information for anyone looking for options to pair with a low powered tube amplifier and/or speaker options for a smaller room.
It is worth mentioning, Decware Torii @ 25WPC would be a great fit for the Vandy 1Ci, but with Richard suggesting thats not enough power for the 2Ce (due to the more complex internals) that makes it a tough call to guess on.
The 2Ce also have a rear firing woofer, which makes the proximity to the back wall very important, so much that it would be tough in my small room.
The 1Ci with the Torii are an option for sure. I will be talking with Steve @ Decware today to get his take on some options.
For minimalist yet stunning looks, excellent efficiency, great dynamics, and quality sound, I suggest the Spatial Audio M3 or M2 Turbos. Lately I've been driving mine with a 3.5 watt tube amp and the sound is totally engaging, with a soundstage that is jaw-dropping. You shouldn't overlook these gems.
Vandersteen speakers have always had a synergy with McCormack gear. I am listening through Vandy Treo Cts powered by an SMc Audio modified McCormack DNA-1 amp as I type this.
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