Hello Audiogon...
Hello Audiogon,
This is my first post.
I’m not new to the audio hobby – I’ve been interested in Hi-Fi for the last 17 years; and it’s become my go-to hobby.
I can absolutely say with full confidence that the budget gear with the crazy SINAD does not live up to its expectations on paper (measured performance). There are obviously reasons for this – which I will explain in detail.
Here’s a teaser: not enough measurements are done. And not enough considerations regarding engineering are taken when measuring. And even if they were, we could never imagine with even a slight degree of accuracy relative to human hearing and psychoacoustics what an amplifier or source component sounds like before trying it first-hand, in our own systems.
First, Let’s backtrack to the golden days of Hi-Fi. The late 1980s and all throughout the 1990s. Modern audio equipment that is designed with few to any compromises are built today with the same sensibilities as top-notch vintage gear. These units tend to be heavy, costly, built with solid casework and parts, and give us the impression of serious engineering chops and effort. If a manufacturer back then released rubbish gear, it was completely dismissed by families, not just the individual audio enthusiast or lone audiophiles. Back then, rather than sit in front of a tv screen all day/night and vegetate, people listened to more music, together, as families. It was a wonderful time in history that I wish still existed today.
Going back to those who fall in to the “measurements only” camp:
Unfortunately, trying to convince or explain what matters in audio equipment to novice audiophiles and even those who claim to be “trained listeners” has been an impossible task for myself and my close friends, who are also serious audiophiles. The experience is akin to attempting to bring a rock garden to life by shouting at it. Nothing happens; and no information worth considering is ever accepted or exchanged.
Additionally, I have found the tone of most so-called “objectivists” to be grandiose and rude, forcing their ideas and conclusions on others whom they bare no financial burden, personally or professionally. So then, websites such as audio science review are in the business of promoting well-measuring gear and exposing “so-called” frauds to benefit the community at large, for the sake of charity? When confronted with anything that challenges their narrow world view, it becomes difficult to have a congruent discussion. It’s like trying to have a conversation with a crocodile. It’s sometimes hilarious…
Let’s get down to Brass Tacks!
In my experience (over the years) this is what really matters in audio equipment (amplifiers, source components):
1.Parts: Cheap parts such as tiny minicomputer v-chip capacitors and inexpensive, thin mainboards, switching power supplies rather than dedicated power transformers etc. The internals are the most important thing of all. It’s what we pay for when we buy high end audio equipment. It’s like trying to make a gourmet dish with canned ingredients rather than fresh/organic ingredients, on a cheap plate (plastic or thin metal casework) Any food critic (or in this audio critic) will notice. It’s not filet mignon, it’s corned beef!
2.Design topology: Class A, Class A/B, Class D, etc. how the stage of amplification is reached (shortness and simplicity of the signal path from the perspective of the signal) and overall implementation relative to signal integrity and the intentions of the designer.
3.Rise time and Slew rate:
Slew Rate: The maximum rate at which an amplifier can respond to an abrupt change of input level.
Rise time: Measures the time an electrical signal takes to transition from its low state to its high state.
4.Group Delay and Excess Group Delay: The rate of change of the total phase shift (ϕ) with respect to angular frequency (ω. The difference between the actual group delay and a reference group delay (usually a flat/ideal delay across frequency)
5.Damping micro-vibrations (internal and external considerations): Power transformers and other parts inside of an audio component oscillate or vibrate, creating something known as micro-vibrations. Solid casework and smart internal design choices nullify them, which improves sound quality.
6.Volume pots and gain stages: The volume pot and its accuracy (parts), even with stepped relays (on which it is dependent) may not be nearly as accurate as an amplifier with higher overall gain and a smooth volume knob, that might allow for a quarter of a dB increase in volume, rather than a static half decibel. Can’t always match two systems precisely in level…
7.Clock Drift: In digital audio systems, different devices (like audio interfaces, DACs, or digital mixers) use their own internal clocks to process audio data. If these clocks are not synchronized, clock drift can occur.
8.Tuning Drift: Analog synth radio instability (the signal being poorly rendered) which can cause detuning and pitch inaccuracies because of poor calibration and neglected temperature controls internally.
9.DC Offset Drift (Analog & Digital): Over time, some components in analog circuits (like capacitors or op-amps) can degrade or warm up, causing a slow drift in the DC offset. Effect: This may introduce low-level hums or thumps, affect dynamic range, or lead to biasing errors in A/D and D/A conversion.
10.Ripple current: Ripple on power rails can leak into the audio path, especially in analog circuitry. Results in audible hum, buzz, or high-frequency noise — Additionally, causes instability with even order harmonics and how they are rendered. Causes smearing of odd order harmonics. Even small ripple voltages (in the millivolt range) can affect low-noise, high-gain audio circuits.
Obvious measurements are frequency response, linearity, and signal to noise ratio. SINAD, on the other hand, is not because it’s an outdated metric. I could go on…and on…
Therefore,
I want audio science review and other “objective” reviewers to measure the analog waveform from a DAC, CD Player, or amplifier with the following methodology:
“Surface-Level” Measurements are not enough. @amir_asr
I can absolutely guarantee the following tests and measurements will result in differences that are transparent and repeatable. Additionally, the relationship between these key subjects I’ve mentioned above are some of the “unmeasurable” stuff, or grey area measurements that have not yet been considered by ASR, and others. If objective reviewers dig deeper, they will find there is more than meets the eye…
My fellow audiophiles, enjoy the music and don’t let anyone tell you not to spend money on that new stereo, upgrade, speakers, or whatever it is. It’s your money and we have this one life (as far as I’m aware) to enjoy existence. Since we found this hobby and thoroughly enjoy it, others should not be allowed to attempt to take away our joy by focusing only on numbers and metrics; especially those that are inconclusive at best. Listening is the ultimate test.
Let the games begin.
...summit
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" Let’s backtrack to the golden days of Hi-Fi. The late 1980s and all throughout the 1990s" You've got your wayback machine improperly set. "Golden days or age" is the late 50'-early 60's. American brands were still American and were the benchmark. 70's started the new "global" market. 80-90's was a time digital technology partners with the established analog domain and major breakthroughs take hold. |
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@tablejockey +1 Mike |
My advice on buying is always to be smart about it. Learn the things that matter most and apply the knowledge. Lots of good info out there these day both objective and subjective. Price alone means nothing. The devil is always in the details. Some measurements matter a lot and should be the cornerstone of buying decisions. Then tickle your fancy from there…. So many good choices. As always just be smart about it. A little skepticism always helps. Make people prove their claims as best possible! Otherwise they are just words used for marketing purposes. Always have fun! Fun! Fun! Fun! That’s what hobbies are all about. If it matters to you then it matters. Cheers! |
There is no vintage gear that I would ever think would replace my newer gear. There was some nice sounding gear 30-40 years ago, but not to the caliber of today’s gear. For example, I had the audio research dac1 as my 1st dac in the early 90’s, the new $99 audioquest usb dac would blow it away today. Speakers the same thing. I also think most measurements are worthless. What sound quality differences are you going to hear between 2 amps if 1 has distortion of .005 and the other at .0005? I use measurements to make sure the electronic voltages are compatible and if the amp pairing to speaker synergy: I won’t be looking at a SET amp to power a 85bd speaker. I bring home audio gear I heard at a show or friends house and demo it in my room using my system gear to determine if it’s a step up in quality before buying. |
I’m disappointed in all of you so far. Not one of you have actually made any complimentary comments, arguments, or additions to my original post that would add value in any way whatsoever. Perhaps audiogon doesn’t have the "sharpest tools in the shed" or the "brightest" audiophiles around. Maybe someone new will post something with at least a ounce of intellect. ...summit |
"My fellow audiophiles, enjoy the music and don’t let anyone tell you not to spend money on that new stereo, upgrade, speakers, or whatever it is. It’s your money and we have this one life (as far as I’m aware) to enjoy existence. Since we found this hobby and thoroughly enjoy it, others should not be allowed to attempt to take away our joy by focusing only on numbers and metrics; especially those that are inconclusive at best. Listening is the ultimate test." Exactemundo! |
I appreciate that you highlighted this part of my post. So thanks for that. I have found the average person, random YouTubers, and miscreants with with probably 99 dollar DACs to be the ones who bash audiophiles the most as keyboard warriors; as if simply enjoying music on high-quality audio systems is crime. Sure, there might be some false superimposed narrative by them that we, by extension, are elitists in some sense, but we are not. And dare I say, @amir_asr I have watched many videos on your YouTube channel. And the ideas that you give the average person with your "insightful" videos make audio seem like a simplistic hobby. You make it all look so easy, as if there are only a few parameters to take care of. This has probably increased the sheer number of keyboard warriors on the internet against audiophiles. Because they have nothing better to do on the weekend, they can bask some of their insecurities on how something "doesn’t make a difference" and how we’re all so stupid for thinking it does. So in summary, you have, inadvertently created a culture that drives the average person FARTHER AWAY from audio, rather than wanting to be part of the audiophile community. If it’s a piece of cake and we’re the ones wrought with errors in judgement, then no sane person wants to partake in such a hobby. Humans enjoy a challenge... and if reaching the peak of that craft is not an easy task, we’re more likely to invest effort in it. |
Objectivist as subjectivist ignore acoustics concepts... If they knew them they will not use a thin set of electronical measures to set the rules nor their testing of brand be the rule ... The most narrowing mind are the objectivist which do not trust human hearing abilities and ask for Double blind test as the famous magician using his art to debunk facts unexplained by science only as delusions... I am an audiophile interested by acoustics concepts... Not gear measures or tastes... |
"I’m disappointed in all of you so far. Not one of you have actually made any complimentary comments, arguments, or additions to my original post that would add value in any way whatsoever. Perhaps audiogon doesn’t have the "sharpest tools in the shed" or the "brightest" audiophiles around. Maybe someone new will post something with at least a ounce of intellect. ...summit"
-Count me out on your next white wine and melon tasting.
-DeKay |
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There is no question that bias plays an important role in all of this. Its a human condition that can't be helped. This audio hobby is especially suseptible. I see people make a purchase and will then defend that product. Tout it as being superior even though they really haven't tested any others and are really clueless to other choices. They made a smart decision and need to defend it as such. Forums are filled with these all knowing 'experts'. Then there are those that believe if it costs more, it must be better. Conversley there are those that believe if it's too cheap it couldn't possibly sound good. Better, costlier parts have to sound better! Then there's the 'never satified' audiophile. Always thinking there's something better. This is a strong driver of this industry. Is it really about the music or the magic the equiptment can produce? That's what makes this hobby especially susceptible to opininated subjective bias. This tilts the scale to the Objectionist view and round and round we go. I think the best explanation is the Dunning-Kruger effect. The Dunning-Kruger effect is a cognitive bias where people with low ability or knowledge in a specific area tend to overestimate their competence, while highly competent individuals may underestimate their relative ability. This occurs because the lack of skill or knowledge also prevents the individual from recognizing their own deficiencies, leading to a false sense of mastery. "You can't know what you don't know"
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What escape objectivist is biases are not only a handicap, a delusion, but a tool from which we can work. A starting point not something to be erased... It is called Acoustics.(not mere room acoustic but acoustics with an "s" here ) In acoustics with the concepts and the experimental parameters which are not all electrical measures but psycho-acoustical one and also acoustical biases learned through the acoustician or audiophile journey, we must train our Ears/brain also and learn how to perceive sound and then music...It is a set of learned positive biases... If subjectivist are deluded , and they are in many case, objectivist beat them... But it seems objectivist and subjectivist are in love with their personal ridiculous war ... In audio Acoustics rules the gear and the electrical measuring tools not the reverse ... I dont think objectivist are immune to the Dunning-Kruger effect ...In the opposite ... They are driven not by their instinctual taste like subjectivist and biases but by a techno-cutist ideology set of restricted electrical measures biases...
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The post is lengthy because I included details. And I sincerely apologize to anyone I may have offended. Perhaps, I've just been really disappointed with people in my everyday life. And it's not about telling me (or rather anyone) what they want to hear, but being able to share opinions, knowledge, ideas etc. There is validity in what I've written - And it can be verified by audio science websites across the globe Start first with ChatGPT and type in a few buzzwords I've mentioned for even more info, maybe followed by "is important because." Maybe you are sharp - don't underestimate yourself! |
When you prove something to him or his ASR forum members, it results in a ban/block, and them calling your response "gibberish." So I'd say - to him and others: "Don't let your schooling interfere with your education." And about him being a fraudster, there are many audiophiles on the internet who suggested this previously, on numerous forums; most of which have been taken down since he was banned from them ages ago. Probably more than 4 sites. And so, he started his own...where no one could ban him. |
I agree. However, I like to listen to both sides. For example looking at a frequency line chart for a speaker can give insight to characteristics that could go undetected by casual listening.
What do you mean? I assume your talking room acoustics?
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+1. All your systems sound noisy/distorted like the left speaker in below. You just don’t hear it. (Natural vs. Un-natural sound), speaker comparison Have you wondered why so many people and your better half don’t like your /audiophiles’ sound systems? Because they can hear that terrible noise from your systems. If you don’t think so, say "hello" with your speaker sound and listen to your voice and speaker sound. Alex/Wavetouch audio |
Acoustics is not "room acoustic" which is just a consequence of some acoustics concepts and experiments... For example "timbre" is defined by 5 factors in acoustic... If we understand them we can better define our room acoustic mechanical devices controls.. We can also forgot about learning and buy a mic and a room equalizer... But i like to learn and experiment ... I designed my own grid of resonators i called " mechanical equalizer" then i learn to tune them with my ears...(astounding results and learning surprize) But reading about reflections function, timing, pressure zones etc teach us concretely what is sound ... Psycho-acoustics matter also, read Dr. Edgar Choueiri articles and his videos...
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I renounced intervening on this site many years ago... I was mocked because i proposed a simple experiment ... Techno-cultism is not science... We see it with A.I. nowadays...Oligarchs proposing to define mind with "few" electrical chips as Amir define a "good sound" with few simple toys... Amir is a polite gentleman (unlike many of his followers), i discussed few times with him here , but it is easy to fathom his limits.. He comes from digital engineering not acoustics... |
