Hearing is believing?........power cables.......
I definitely meant it in the ’hey kid, try this awesome stuff’ way.. The cable is definitely calming down, I’m very happy with its sound. I won’t bother confirming whether my soundstage has gotten wider, etc, etc, only because, if you’ve already suggested it, then I’ll be primed to hear it. I do believe that what I called increased space between instruments and improved clarity after my first listen could easily be interpreted as an increase in soundstage.. besides sounding great, though, I'm really impressed how much it has reduced the hum in my TT, which wasn't really all that bad, but now it's hardly audible from 1'. Either way, the helix is definitely a great design. I’ve posted links to your info blog in numerous threads around here.. it’s funny, though. People just like to buy the fancy bulk cable and expensive connectors for DIY. Ain’t nobody wanna work for their cables! :-) |
Randy, I'm not sure what you're trying to say.. are you suggesting all cables are placebo? Here's my perspective: I came into cables expecting nothing. I had read enough about fancy cables to feel the need to disprove their efficacy to myself. Despite this perspective, I found my first use of non stock cables to be ear opening, despite what I was expecting and hoping to prove to myself. So don't think all of us cable proponents are nothing but fools brainwashed by cable company hype. Some of us, many of us even, came around reluctantly to cables. So, please either come out and say what you mean, or just move along. I don't understand why some people are insulted or angry that other people are into after market cables.. I know some of the prices are stupid. But there are inexpensive and DIY options, so just slamming all cables because some are outrageously priced shows a lack of subtlety in thinking. Out of curiosity, what types of cabling have you tried? |
I think what Randy and I and other realists are saying is that once some very basic and inexpensive length/guage requirements are met, nothing is to be gained by spending sometimes insane amounts on aftermarket cabling...wasting money on them is ludicrous. If better performing power cables were really necessary, audio component manufacturers would surely provide better cables with their equipment. To not do so would make no sense. I don’t know how many different ways there are to say this..."exotic" cables are designed, marketed and sold to fix problems that do not exist. |
well put buy better speakers, room tmts, add on a new room... better source material, better DAC, isolate your turntable, etc. etc. all are proven with listening tests ( the real kind, not not some guy eyeballing a phat cable while listening) AND are supported by known mechanisms affecting SQ contrawise, there is no known mechanism by which an aftermarket power cable will affect SQ,, high-end manfs. eschew them and there are zero blinded listening tests showing a difference not having an expectation does not create a valid listening test |
Enjoying my system creates a valid listening test for me... If PCs don't make a difference, then there's a lot of mass hysteria going on. as has been said a million times, just because you can't measure it doesn't mean there's not a difference. Also, just because there are stupidly priced PCs doesn't mean all are a scam or are a crazy outlay of cash. |
It appears that some think(or hope) the more they type, the more deaf we, or the more correct they, will become. There are phenomena(correct plural) that occur every second, all over this universe, that no one can yet explain. We can hear, "differences" and they want explanations, based on today’s Electrical THEORY. And yet, no one’s Science can(TODAY) even categorically define electrons, or why they behave the way they do. "Science" itself is in a constant state of flux. (https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/electrons-vanishing-act.515106/) |
Dynaquest4 - WRT audio component manufacturers would surely provide better cables with their equipmentand the same goes for outlets, connectors etc... However - pretty much all audio components re designed to a "Price Point" and are generally aimed at bettering other components in the same snack bracket. To include a good Power cable would drive up the cost and ultimately take them out of that snack bracket and lower their competitiveness. They also realize that people buying their products may also replace that power cable - so why include a good power cable when it will ultimately be discarded. Makes no sense in their eyes. I actually heard this from one manufacturer - who believe a good power cable was essential to get the best out of their gear I have conducted many cable upgrades to components priced between $300 and $10.000 and in each case I heard discernible differences. That does not necessarily mean you would hear those same difference - it meas we all hear things differently - neither one is better - just different. e.g. - put me in a room of people and I loose track of the conversation with the person in front of me because of the ambient noise. Whereas my wife can track a single conversation across a full restaurant several tables away - comes in handy at times :-) We could debate this at length or simply accept, as I do, that there are people that choose to believe cables makes little to no difference and those that do. I do agree that there is little difference between many of the cables out there - but some do excel. Regards - Steve |
rodman9999: I agree that phenomena is a more common plural form of the singular - however, both Merriam-Webster’s Dictionary and Merriam-Webster’s Dictionary of English Usage list the possible plural forms as phenomena when the meaning is an observable fact or event but phenomenons when the meaning is an exceptional, unusual, or abnormal person, things, or occurrences. Thus my usage. Steve (williewonka): Nicely written opinion but I do not agree. If I buy a $2500 stereo power amp and the manufacturer provides me a $9.00 (bulk wholesale) power cord, it is, I believe, because that power cord provides power correctly and accurately. If he found that a power cord costing 10 times as much provided the "eye-opening, jaw dropping" (or even subtle but definite) improvements as reported by "you guys," he could substantially upgrade the cord and the amp's performance for only a 3.5% increase in the retail cost (assuming he did not mark-up the additional cord cost). Who would not want their product (in my example a power amp) to perform dramatically better for so relatively little? Please don't ask what aftermarket power cables I have tried because I have tried none. My system sounds so good to me, I don't feel a need to spend time and money putzing around trying to increase the "analog-like liquidity" (and all the other voo-doo magic terminology used here) of a perfectly good system. I have speaker cables by Kimber Kable and Wireworld RCA interconnects. They provided no increase in SQ over Monoprice products. Is it just me...my ears? Maybe. And if so, I am very fortunate. I can listen to music that sounds incredibly wonderful to me and will never have to spend an additional penny on cables, wire, cords, smoke, butterflies, rainbows and mirrors. |
For my own enlightenment - I would like to understand from members with tube components in their systems... Have you experienced significant improvements by installing a quality power cables on your tube components - or were the improvements of a more subtle nature ? I currently have a Solid State rig, but I did own a tube amp a few years ago. - I do not recall hearing the same level of improvements using that tube amp with a quality power cable that I now hear with my solid state amp. But then, I did not have the same power cables I have today either. :-) I'm thinking that perhaps with the higher internal voltages used in Tube gear, the benefits that may be derived from installing a quality of the power cable on solid state components is less of an issue where tubes are concerned? Thanks in advance - Steve |
I think what Randy and I and other realists are saying is that once some
very basic and inexpensive length/guage requirements are met, nothing
is to be gained by spending sometimes insane amounts on aftermarket
cabling...wasting money on them is ludicrous. If better performing power
cables were really necessary, audio component manufacturers would
surely provide better cables with their equipment. To not do so would
make no sense. I don’t know how many different ways there are to say
this..."exotic" cables are designed, marketed and sold to fix problems
that do not exist.
(quote from dynaquest14). And this is the exact reason why dynaquest4 and the like will never "get it". The reason why manufacturers don't provide "upmarket power cables" is the same reason why manufacturers don't provide upmarket Interconnects and generally don't provide upmarket tubes. Imagine the added cost to a component. There are hundreds of Interconnect manufacturers and a fair percentage of Power Cable manufacturers. The chief designer says to his R&D team "We're going to supply upmarket Interconnects, Power Cables and Tubes for our components. Now get to work and find the best matching IC's, PC's, Tubes". R&D come back 12 months later. "Yep we found the right matching cables & tubes". "How much did that cost?" "$200k in component costs for testing all the different cables and $200k in labour for hundreds of hours of listening tests". Said $5K component now costs $9K. Doesn't make economic sense. Even if they just threw in random $100 cables & $200 of tubes. That $400 by the time it gets to the middleman and then the retailer becomes closer to $1K. Once again makes no economic sense. The majority of passionate audio buyers will want to swap out their own cables, tubes anyway to get their own signature sound and synergy with the rest of their system. Remember one sound doesn't suit all. A great example of this recently was when I A/B'd two CD Players from the same manufacturer, the Vincent CD-S8 & Vincent CD-S7DAC, both very fine sounding CD Players. I placed some Silver XLR's (which sounded nice on the CD-S8 but sounded "too bright" on the CD-S7DAC).If Vincent included these with all their CD Players, there would be some disappointed CD-S7DAC owners who've paid for a cable that doesn't match well. Some years ago I purchased a Power Amp which had an upmarket (not expensive but better than the throwaway PC) Power cable hard wired. About four years ago I had the cable replaced with an IEC socket .And guess what, I found a better matching Power Cable which increased the sound quality of the Power Amp. I've done extensive testing of Power Cables. Some that match well with certain Pre-Amps, don't fare quite as well with certain CD Players and vice-versa. Yep a well made, well engineered, well matched Power Cable accompanied with good Power Treatment/Conditioning will undoubtedly allow good quality Audio Components to perform closer to their potential. Absolutely no question. And it doesn't need to cost a king's ransom. |
"...once some very basic and inexpensive length/guage requirements are met, nothing is to be gained by spending sometimes insane amounts on aftermarket cabling" What you call insane may I must say very respectfully maybe considered by someone else to be a very modest amount to spend on their Music Reproduction System it is a matter of assigning value to an expense and that is a very personal computation to undertake. "...wasting money on them is ludicrous." But those who are spending the money may not consider it ludicrous if even only because they can afford to spend such money on their Music Reproduction System. "A great example of this recently was when I A/B'd two CD Players from the same manufacturer, the Vincent CD-S8 & Vincent CD-S7DAC, both very fine sounding CD Players. I placed some Silver XLR's (which sounded nice on the CD-S8 but sounded "too bright" on the CD-S7DAC).If Vincent included these with all their CD Players, there would be some disappointed CD-S7DAC owners who've paid for a cable that doesn't match well." But if there was a difference in the audible performance of the cables when used with in the context of a Music Reproduction System then that is all that really matters here. What you call too bright might be just right for someone else when used in they're Music Reproduction System and worth every penny of the cost of acquiring the cables. "And it doesn't need to cost a king's ransom. " What you call a king's ransom may be a trivial expense to me and increasingly based upon what you write here that is very likely the case. I have one cable in my system that cost many thousands of US dollars and to me it is worth every single cent of the cost. For you it's insane probably because it would be a year's worth of rent to you but just a minor expense to someone such as myself and many others that I know of for they're Music Reproduction System. |
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@toddverrone and - @initforthemusic - thank for the feedback - much appreciated. Todd - I find that the bigger the transformer in a component then the more subtle the improvements You mono blocks probably has a very large transformer and lots of caps in the power supply. This would provide very good power to the circuits, so the improvements noticed would be less discernible. Having said that I found the improvements with a power amp to be less about things like bass improvements, dynamics and image - and more about the improvements in the reproduction of minute venue acoustics and the realism the power amp is allowed to conveyconvey The power supply in the Tube pre-amp probably benefits more from the quality power cable - allowing for the faster response to transient peaks. Also, the Helix cable is a very low noise cable, but it also ensures the neutral side of the Pre is as close to zero volts as it can be. Without noise on the neutral side of the circuit ensures the best possible reproduction Guys - I am not surprised by your observations - they are similar to my own, but they confirm that great cables can be applied to both Tube or solid state and provide the same level of improvement Many Thanks |
@dynaquest4 dynaquest4 wrote: "Analog-like liquidity"....really? That's a new one. Who makes up this stuff? I just went thru your responses to a few posts. Did it ever occur to you that you're wasting your time (and others) on Audiogon? You have obviously not experienced what impact cables can have in a high resolution system? I feel sorry for you! Did you notice, that the earth is not flat ... ? |
decibel: Please, please do not feel sorry for me. This thread is not about me...it is about power cables. Though flattered that you took the time to review my previous posts, your opinion about whether my participation is or is not wasting my time has no place in this discussion. The discussion is not about me...it is about power cables. I have a point of view...as you do. Your point of view, right or wrong, is welcome here. My point of view, right or wrong, should be also. The earth is not flat? Was that comment about power cables? I'd encourage you to, as we said in the Navy, "Stay focused and on target." |
@knghifi You appear to be as mixed-up and muddled up as the King Of Siam and unabletothink. It appears you just read unabletothink's incoherent ramblings and didn't bother to read my original posts of which unabletothink took excerpts from. Always a big,big mistake. I'll go through it for you slowly so hopefully you can comprehend. My response was to dynaquest4's asking why manufacturer's don't supply upmarket cables with equipment? As I've explained it would be uneconomical and commercial suicide for a manufacturer to do this. I then gave an example as I'd recently done an A/B with 2 of a manufacturer's CD Players. The initial XLR cable I chose to use sounded really nice on the CD-S8 but not so great on the CD-S7DAC. Now if you bought the CD-S7DAC and had to fork out an extra $500 or so because the cable was included would you be happy? This was a perfect example of why manufacturer's (that I know of) don't supply upmarket cables. The "Don't have to spend a kings ransom" quote was in response to the posts quoting near 7k & 13.5k for Power Cables. I am personally using $250 Power Cables on some very high end Active hybrid stats amongst my many sets of Speakers. Also on some big Mono Blocks. Many would be putting mega dollar cables on these, but I'm currently comfortable with these, mind you they compete with Cables costing a lot more. They are a substantial step-up over stock cables. Would the mega dollar cables be an improvement? I would certainly hope so but I'm in no hurry to find out. I have a dozen or so different brands in my 20 odd Power Cables (5 systems). Max. I've spent is $350 on one cable, all are a step-up over stock Power Cables. So my point was you don't have to spend mega dollars to get an improvement. Somehow unabletothink started an ego-driven delusional rant about himself. Incomprehensible. There's your lesson knghifi, enjoy. |
I'll go through it for you slowly so hopefully you can comprehend. My response was to dynaquest4's asking why manufacturer's don't supply upmarket cables with equipment? As I've explained it would be uneconomical and commercial suicide for a manufacturer to do this.Manufacturers realize end users will roll cables or tubes so just supply inexpensive for stock. No matter what they supply for stock, it will be changed. IMO, nothing to do with economical and commercial suicide. Probably with exceptions for Shindo, KR Audio 1610 base amps ... I then gave an example as I'd recently done an A/B with 2 of a manufacturer's CD Players. The initial XLR cable I chose to use sounded really nice on the CD-S8 but not so great on the CD-S7DAC. Now if you bought the CD-S7DAC and had to fork out an extra $500 or so because the cable was included would you be happy? This was a perfect example of why manufacturer's (that I know of) don't supply upmarket cables.Is it not possible another customer prefers the INITIAL XLR over the $500 cable? Eye of the beholder! |
"...Max. I've spent is $350 on one cable, all are a step-up over stock Power Cables. So my point was you don't have to spend mega dollars to get an improvement. " You seem to be a bit confused on the fundamental nature of consumer economics so I hope you will see my further detailed explanation here as it is quite apparent you either did not read or did not understand my earlier response to you on this matter. For some users of Music Reproduction Systems spending $350 on a cable is what you previously referred to as a "kings ransom." It is a months rent for them perhaps or a few weeks worth of food. It is a price that they cannot even remotely consider when they could by an other functionally similar cable for $10 that would work satisfactorily in their Music Reproduction System. I understand that for you this $350 is a relatively modest or at least justifiable expense that your consumer budget can presumably support without sacrificing any of lifes essential costs such as rent or food. Yet for others the same $350 is a trivial expense and one not even necessary to account for in the financial planning because it is the equivalent of "pocket change" to them. In fact there are some users of Music Reproduction Systems for who even many thousands of US dollars spent on a cable is a minor expense that has no bearing on their monthly budget because it represents just a tiny small insignifcant portion of their monthly income. What you are doing is applying your value system to others decisions and then making a value judgement about the other person. Of course this type of judgement is used erroneously all of the time but it is in error never the less because you don't know what their budget/financial status is. You're statement "you don't have to spend mega dollars" doesn't make sense because in the one example you have already spent what some consider megadollars and in another example you have purchased the equivalent of a "budget" item that would not satisfy a consumer with perhaps substantially greater financial resources than yourself and frankly I am a little surprised that you seem to struggle to accept this very simple economic concept but you seem intelligent so if you consider it carefully I am quite confident you will understand the error in judgement you are repeatedley making in this thread. |
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toddverrone05-10-2017 9:48am ... I know enough wealthy people who still watch what they spend ... but, in the end it’s all relative, so everyone should make their own decisions and practice contentment ...+1. Indeed, frugality is the path many follow to achieve wealth, as explained by the researcher Thomas J. Stanley decades ago. But it is all relative. Many people think it's insane to spend on audio what some here would call a "modest" system. |
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@knghifi You are still seriously struggling with the concept. I'll try and make it simpler for you. If you purchased a component and you had to pay a premium for a supplied cable and the cable made the component sound ordinary, would you be happy paying the premium for the included cable? I certainly wouldn't. Wouldn't that be a big reason why manufacturers don't generally supply upmarket cables? I hope you finally get it. |
@knghifi You are still seriously struggling with the concept. I'll try and make it simpler for you. If you purchased a component and you had to pay a premium for a supplied cable and the cable made the component sound ordinary, would you be happy paying the premium for the included cable? I certainly wouldn't. Wouldn't that be a big reason why manufacturers don't generally supply upmarket cables? I hope you finally get it.In your example, you prefer a $500 cable but there are owners that prefer a different cable. One less or more expensive than $500, it's a PERSONAL choice ... no consensus No correct or incorrect answer so manufacturers just include a generic cable and allow owners choose. Probably reason no captive PC but IEC??? If there is a CONSENSUS, regardless of cost, manufacturer will include with the component. |
Now you are starting to get it knghifi. It was a bit like toilet training an infant, but you are slowly understanding. This is the exact reason why manufacturers (that I know of), don't supply upmarket cables. One cable doesn't suit all. So they generally throw in a cheap throwaway, as most will upgrade cables. Now do you understand why it would be a waste if they put in a fairly expensive same cable on all their components?. It might match beautifully on some components but not match so well on others. My example illustrated this brilliantly. Relating to the second part do you know of any manufacturer supplying fairly expensive Cables with components? I don't but of course don't know all manufacturers. I've seen slightly better Interconnects supplied which at a guess might cost $25 rather than the $5 throwaways. |
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