Have I Hit The Point Of Diminishing Returns?

I agree with John and Charles. In this hobby the word "dated" is irrelevant. Just listen to some great vintage gear

Rlb61,
You've gotten two very different perspectives from Jmcgrogan2 and Doug Schroder. You specifically state that your system sounds "great". If it does truly sound that satisfying for you then John's comments are more applicable in your situation. It would make sense to avoid the High End merry go round and upgrade mentality. Expand your music library and continue to enjoy the great sound you've achieved. What is the goal or target if you do decide to upgrade from what's already great sound?
Charles,

My listening room is nearly identical to yours and I recently tried something that made me sit up and say whoa.
I set my system in a diagonal configuration after reading this. The increase in soundstage depth alone was worth the effort. But honestly, as far as I can tell there were improvements in every sonic attribute of the system. And yes, my room has significant treatment going on.
If your system is movable you really should give it a try. I'm usually not much of a fanatic but I am a convert and am spreading the word.

+1 Doug Schroeder. Best of Luck

John - Thanks for that. I was just curious as to how much
better it could get versus cost. Perhaps I've got
"upgradeitis." However, to pay a significant amount
for a de minimis improvement or difference in sound, makes
little sense to me. It just may be time to get off the roller
coaster and focus on the music rather than the gear; being a
gear geek, that's not so easy.

Yes, you past the point of diminishing returns as soon as you go past your first boombox. The laws of diminishing returns hit early and hard, just as in any other hobby. A $10,000 watch is not 1000 times better than a $10 watch. Same goes for audio gear.

You have stated twice that you are very happy with the sound of your system. My advice would be to buy more music and just enjoy it. Don't let others spend your money for you, unless you are just dying to throw money around. If you are happy, there is no need to seek out unhappiness.

Cheers,
John

Go out and listen to as many systems as you can. Join an audio society, attend some hifi shows, and listen to some friends systems. This will give you a better idea of what is possible. You may not hear one system that does it all but you will certainly hear things that can be improved upon in your system.

I think you need to isolate what you are trying to achieve. It's a small room, so you can only do so much. For example, one could be looking for more realism in the human voice, more bass impact, better sound at lower volume, etc. You can't just walk into this without a goal. In my experience, the biggest part of the puzzle is finding a pair of speakers that work in your room. When you find it, it's an amazing upgrade. The bad part is - IMO, this is nothing but trial and error and there's no way to predict the speaker that's going to work best. It's like the errors in the room combine with the errors in the speaker to somehow work out. My current speakers were fairly expensive (for me) and I wouldn't buy them without a home audition. Fortunately, it worked out great. But if you like those B&Ws, you could probably buy a used Harbeth SHL5 and sell them at minimal if any loss. I think that might be an alternative.

Al - I sold the Velodyne and am running the B&Ws full range. Sounds much better ... I will revise my system description.

Looking at your system description leads me to ask if you are connecting the Velodyne sub at speaker-level or at line-level. If you are connecting it at line-level you could undoubtedly realize a significant improvement, at minimal cost, by connecting at speaker level.

I say that because, as I mentioned in another recent thread in which you also participated, the output impedance of your BAT preamp rises to very high levels at deep bass frequencies. The input impedance of the line-level inputs of your Velodyne sub doesn't appear to be specified, but typically powered subs have relatively low impedances on those inputs, which would result in significant deep bass rolloff when driven by your preamp. Reproduction of higher frequencies by the main speakers could be adversely affected as well, if the sub is loading the outputs of the preamp.

Regards,
-- Al

Interesting views. My power amp is 225 wpc dual mono, so I THINK it's powerful enough, but I could be wrong. Love how the B&Ws and Cardas sound in this system, although I agree that they may not work in some other systems. Essentially, there seem to be two opposing points of view: (a) marginally "different" sound can be had for a significant price, but it may not be "better" sound or worth the money; and (b) it is possible to achieve 100% improved sound for a reasonable cost, but is component/system synergy dependent. Confusing, no doubt. BTW, my new listening room is a sucky 12x12x8, but I have treated it with GIK Acoustics products which have helped tremendously.

I wouldn't so lightly dismiss Cardas as "rolled off", as if that's a bad thing. From what I see, many, if not most of the complaints here concern bright or forward systems. Many audiophiles fall into the same trap - they construct these "accurate" systems and then bitch about the brightness. It's a delicate balancing act. The room has a lot to do with it as well. If you're in a big room and sitting pretty far from the speakers, a more neutral "better highs" cable may be the thing to balance out the degree of softening the room may have. But if you're sitting 8 feet away from the speakers, those cables/components may tear your head off. This is not a simple thing and you have to let your ears be the judge. There's an old saying - the more you open the window, the more garbage flies in. That's why I'm saying that upgrading has to be done carefully and preferably with the help of someone who knows the gear and whose ears you trust.

You know that it has been written many times before that the latest gear is not necessarily the better sounding gear - most often it's just different sounding gear & at other times it's worse sounding.
You electronics is all good stuff. I'm not a fan of B&W anymore but if you like the sonics then I'd suggest keeping it.
The thing about B&W is that it needs a lot of current to make those speakers come alive. So, from my personal B&W experience, I'm going to say that you are perceiving hitting a ceiling with this gear simply because you do not have sufficient power for the N804. If you can manage it budget-wise I would recommend getting a high current amp - even a class-D power amp. Something with outrageous output power - I'm thinking 400W/ch.
I was never a fan of Cardas cables - too rolled off for me. I believe that this is not helping either. Several inexpensive but supposedly very good sounding brands to try such as Morrow Audio, Signal Cable.
FWIW.

We all have - long ago.

Here's a bug in the ear suggestion. Take it for what it's worth to you.

Grace Design M920 w/remote --- $2300
Neumann KH310 active monitors - $4450
Balanced cables of choice --- $ 500
------------------------------------
TOTAL $7250

You can use your tuner as before and use your CD as a transport. Mission accomplished. You will never look back.

I don't think it has that much to do with money, but it certainly could end up that way. You are in a position now where you have your system tuned you your tastes and you enjoy it. I wouldn't think in terms of "better", but instead, think of "what would I have to do to get more enjoyment from my system". IMO, you would need to home demo components and cables individually to see if they really make you want to listen more or less. A supposedly better component might upset the balance of your system and diminish the listening experience for you. It would also be an idea to speak with a good dealer and let him make some recommendation based on your taste and existing system. A good dealer can do this - a box mover is just going to try to sell you what they want to move, so be selective. Good luck.

No, you have not hit he point of diminishing returns, not even close! There are many, many levels/steps of quality and dozens remain above where you are now.

I am not saying this to belittle your system; you have great gear and I'm sure it is great sounding. However, the steps of improvement are literally endless. In my system also I do not see the finish line, that is, at a level which cannot be improved. Regularly I have dramatic improvements and have for years.

I strongly disagree with the perspective that you must spend multiples more to achieve a 20% change in sound quality. I would nearly reverse it, and suggest that in trying many different components you can achieve a seeming "100% improvement" in not all that much increase in cost, perhaps twice what you would get for the sale of any given component. i.e. sell for $1K, add $2K = $3K new component. And that is potentially at the upside of what you might have to spend. This is because there is a HUGE variance in component quality from manufacturer to manufacturer.

Example: Some of the new DACs are mind-blowing in terms of improvement of digital quality sound, and you can have these for nowhere near nosebleed prices. The new DSD capable DACs are "affordable" as considered to be truly High End, where some components are priced by the multiple thousands.

I encourage you to do some shopping/listening and experiment with your rig. My experience is that the "point of diminishing returns" is perceptual, not actual. And, yes, changing cables, for instance, will alter the rigs sound most likely in a profound way.

I totally agree with Mattmiller....tried all the Cardas permutations, and they all don't work in my system....I exchanged my B&W's for Vandersteen and am still smiling after all these years.

I've always found Cardas to be very colored try some cables that "get out of the way more". Also, I love the electronics you have. You could always look at changing speakers...Unless you really love those B&W's.I would look at some Dynaudio C1's, or the Contour series. Dynaudios love power! I think you are correct that It will take some $$ to better what you have and its probably not that better. I would add vinyl, this would open a new world and your wallet! LOL.

well sort of .... but not exactly "diminishing returns " but rather a new level of "constant returns".

With a quality kit like you now have, you have reached/ will reach your new upgrade point level. It will now be subservient to that time-honored and inalienable rule that your next "upgraditis" will fall into an inverse trap generally known as the "Rule of fifths"

You have to start shelling out approximately five times the present cost to get the next 20% increase in performance.

That is why this hobby is a journey and not a finite destination.