Has Anyone Uesed A PrimaLuna Amp With Harbeth Speaker's
Hi guys, I will be on the market soon for a new amp and I keep looking at the Primaluna Amps, has anyone heard the Primaluna Dialogue Premium amp driving a pair of Harbeth's 30.1 speakers? these are 87d/b and I am not sure how this will work out?
Since you double posted you get two for the price of one:
Just look at these Stereophile measurements: https://www.stereophile.com/content/primaluna-dialogue-premium-power-amplifier-measurements
it has a pretty bad load dependent frequency response. You might as
well buy yourself an equalizer. Moreover, its output of little over 20
watts is not enough to drive the Harbeths. Just do yourself a favour and
do what Harbeth’s designer Alan Shaw suggests and get a beefy solid
state amplifier. Even very good ones will cost less and will sound far
better. If you look on this site you will see that there have also
been quality issues (there just appears to be a pattern, but I am not
sure if it is real).
I used SHL5+ with the PL Dialogue Premium int and separates. I did not like it and sold the PL and went back to SS. It did not offer a realistic representation of the music. Nothing sounded right. Others love Harbeths with tubes, I did not at all.
I usually love Primaluna with most gear, but might agree that the HP Dialogue would be a better option than the Dialogue. Doubling the tubes and power would seem a bit safer, especially if you every changed speakers down the road. Just food for thought.
Having owned 3 pairs of Harbeth's, currently the SHL5+, I agree with tswila that Harbeth's do not sound right with tube amplification. I tried Quicksilver V-4' and Silver 88's and an Audio Research VT100 with both the original SHL5's and the monitor 40's.
They need a good SS amplifier to sound their best. Of course, this is my opinion and YMMV. Good Luck!
Just look at these Stereophile measurements: https://www.stereophile.com/content/primaluna-dialogue-premium-power-amplifier-measurements it has a pretty bad load dependent frequency response. You might as well buy yourself an equalizer. Moreover, its output of little over 20 watts is not enough to drive the Harbeths. Just do yourself a favour and do what Harbeth’s designer Alan Shaw suggests and get a beefy solid state amplifier. Even very good ones will cost less and will sound far better.
If you read the Stereophile article you’ll see the following, the 25 wpc is in low power triode mode, see below. The amp met the 42wpc spec. As far as quality goes, reliability and quality control in the primaluna line are halmarks. These are top shelf amps that will last a lifetime.
I own the PL Dialogue Premium HP amp with 8 KT150 and 12AU7’s per monoblock to drive my Magnepan 20.7’s (87db) and the sound is truly glorious. I’m certain they will make your Harbeth’s sing.
Harbeth’s sound good with both solid state AND tube amplification. It all comes down to personal preference. I’ve owned Harbeth’s for about eight years (SHL5’s and two pairs of 40.1’s). In that time, I’ve used or tried three solid state amps/integrateds and six tube amps/integrateds... and while all of the amps sounded good, I preferred tube amps by a sizeable margin.
The other area of disagreement when it comes to Harbeth’s is amplifier power. Many are adamant that Harbeth’s need high power to sound their best. Alan Shaw implies that any run of the mill 100 wpc amp will work fine. I think the "quality" of watts is more important that "quantity" of watts... excluding flea power and SET amps.
Here is how I’d rate the amps I’ve used with my Harbeth speakers:
VAC 70/70 Signature (68 wpc)
VAC 30/30 MK III Signature (32 wpc)
Music Reference RM9 MK2 (125 wpc)
McIntosh MC275 MKV (75 wpc)
VAC Phi 200 (125 wpc)
Bryston 4BST (250 wpc)
Plinius SA-102 (125 wpc)
Jolida 1501 Hybrid integrated (100 wpc)
McIntosh MA2275 tube integrated (75 wpc)
I don’t care about accuracy and neutrality... I just care how it sounds.
Harbeth's Alan Shaw demonstrated the M40.1 in Hilversum in the Netherlands (there is a youtube video somewhere but I cannot find it right now). With some music, the peak power indicators on the monoblock power amplifiers indicated that they were producing more than 500 watts per channel.
Be cautious on the amp selection for the M30.1. In my experience, Harbeth speakers can really sound like mud with the wrong amp. With the right amp they come to life and sound much energetic and livelier.
I believe it’s not a question of whether the M30.1 sounds better with tube or solid-state. Apart from the "flavor" of the amp, it’s the current or power that brings the speaker to life. The M30.1 is a more difficult speaker than the SHL5 Plus and requires more current to sound good. If Tswisla finds the SHL5+ to sound wrong with the Primaluna Dialogue Premium, chances are the M30.1 will sound even worse with that amp.
With the M30.1, you need an amp that is sufficiently powerful and able to provide the current to properly drive the speakers. Otherwise it will sound lacklustre.
Again I am spending an avg. of 3 plus hours a night listening to music since purchasing my PrimaLuna's. I have never ever achieved this type of music satisfaction in my home before.
PL Dialogue Premium Preamp
PL Dialogue Premium HP Amps Magnepan 20.7 speakers
Thanks to all of you for getting back to me on this subject,
some very good feedback,
I use a high power SS Amp now with the Harbeth's and on the
hole like the sound, I just fancy some valve amp’s and love what I have heard in the past, I
have done some home work and there are some very good write up’s about the primaluna
amps, I am thinking on the lines of the Primaluna Dialogue Premium HP and going
for a pair to use as mono block’s, I
just need to get over to my dealer and hear them.
Another good thing about PL is that you can tube roll and tailor the sound to your listening preference. I had to forgo the silk smooth EL34's for the more powerful KT150's. I replaced the standard 12AU7's that come with the amplifiers with Brimar and Mullard tubes. The sound is absolutely glorious.
Read Herb Reichert's Stereophile review of the 86dB efficient Dynaudio Contour 20 with the SMALLEST $2199 PrimaLuna power amp. He stated "The combo of Dynaudio Contour 20s and PrimaLuna ProLogue Premium played all the mountain ennui and fierce forward momentum that make classic bluegrass unique in the American songbook".https://www.stereophile.com/content/dynaudio-contour-20-loudspeaker
Or this review of Wilson Sabrinas where the 36wpc $3199 DiaLogue Premium bested the $10,000 ARC REF75SE . The reviewer said "In spite of the low absolute power, the sound was incredibly captivating and dynamics were now seemingly more expansive than with either of the big transistor amps as well as the Ref 75." http://www.hifi-advice.com/blog/review/loudspeaker-reviews/wilson-sabrina/
I've had a lot of Harbeth owners use PrimaLuna and can't think of any that were not happy off hand. If you like to play your music loud in a bigger room maybe an HP would be better, but for many people a 36 watt PrimaLuna will be fabulous.
I would never base any purchase decision of wattage. Wattage means nothing except volume. It has no effect on bass response or sound quality.
Power means undistorted and uncompressed dynamics true, but if you have enough power you have enough power and having more buys you nothing, and people should not put weight on that as any guarantee of performance.
There is no relationship to quality. Period. Wattage means only one thing. Volume.
But you’re saying to yourself bigger amps sound better, and it’s because of power, right? Well, no. You can buy a Sony 100 watt per channel receiver for $148. It weighs 14 pounds and IT WILL bench out at 100 watts. And at low distortion to boot!!
Now look at a pair of Pass Labs XA60.5 monoblocks. They weight 62 pounds each and cost well over $10,000 a pair. And they are only 60 watts. And that's it. Is this a silly comparison? No, because it illustrates the fact. The Pass sounds better because of parts quality. Transformer size, capacitors, number of output devices, and all the other things that add weight to a quality amplifier.
***Within a particular brand it’s okay to assume more power is better. But don’t think for a moment a 200 watt amp from Brand A will sound better than a 100 watt amp from Brand B***
In tube amplifiers it gets even trickier. Many high power tube amps get that power by simply running the tubes harder. PrimaLuna could have been designed to be 36 watts or 100 watts from a pair of tubes by simply raising plate and screen voltage and biasing harder. Higher voltages results in tube shorts, and even if the amp doesn’t break, the tubes wear out quickly. PrimaLuna is the only company proud to say “low power on purpose” because they run the tubes cool. They want a product that you can use every day without having to think about counting hours and how much it costs. What’s fun about hifi if you can’t use it?
Some of the worst sounding tube amps I’ve ever heard had a ton of power. What they lacked was bandwidth. Power has no influence on whether or not the deepest bass or even the highest highs are sent to the speakers. Bandwidth in a tube amplifier is dictated by output transformers, the physical part that actually couples your speaker drivers to the amplifier.
***Listen to me when I say this. Output transformers are the single most important and most expensive part in any tube amplifier***
Even the largest manufacturers buy them off-the-shelf and many spend as little as they can to make a buck. Trust me I know these guys. The bigger the company the more they are all about profit margin.
Output transformers are half art and half science. PrimaLuna not only designs but winds their own output transformers in house. Look at the weight of PrimaLuna amps and preamps. That's serious iron for both power and output transformers.
upscaleaudio205 posts03-01-2018 4:45amRead Herb Reichert’s Stereophile review of the 86dB efficient Dynaudio Contour 20 with the SMALLEST $2199 PrimaLuna power amp. He stated "The combo of Dynaudio Contour 20s and PrimaLuna ProLogue Premium played all the mountain ennui and fierce forward momentum that make classic bluegrass unique in the American songbook".https://www.stereophile.com/content/dynaudio-contour-20-loudspeaker
Or this review of Wilson Sabrinas where the 36wpc $3199 DiaLogue Premium bested the $10,000 ARC REF75SE . The reviewer said "In spite of the low absolute power, the sound was incredibly captivating and dynamics were now seemingly more expansive than with either of the big transistor amps as well as the Ref 75." http://www.hifi-advice.com/blog/review/loudspeaker-reviews/wilson-sabrina/
I’ve had a lot of Harbeth owners use PrimaLuna and can’t think of any that were not happy off hand. If you like to play your music loud in a bigger room maybe an HP would be better, but for many people a 36 watt PrimaLuna will be fabulous.
I would never base any purchase decision of wattage. Wattage means nothing except volume. It has no effect on bass response or sound quality.
It may be your preference to not look at the amp wattage prior to a purchase but the spec is still an important factor. The main problem is most amp manufacturers have the tendency to make the figures look good on paper. It’s not entirely down to watts but the transient power from the power supply (transformer) where a robust power supply will be able to control voltage and amp swings more effectively than a lesser one.
Some amps which show higher watts on paper may sound significantly less powerful when compared to one that has a lower watt figure. Case in point, a 60 or 70W amp which sounds much more powerful than a 100W or 150W amp. When specifying power output, most amp manufacturers tend to "over-specify" the figures based on test resistors which do not reflect on real world performance. Apart from this factor, the power supply that can deliver the transient power (measured in VA) will also play a role.
In summary, I disagree with your last paragraph. In proper context, the power that is required to effectively drive the speakers is rather significant and will have bearing on sound quality. It’s not all about volume but other aspects of sound reproduction or amplifier design such as transient delivery which is influenced by slew rate and current rise times.
Mcintosh SS amp and pre sound amazing with C7. I bet a mcintosh integrated would also be great. I'm still curious what the mc275 would be like? Rogue Cronus 2 sounded muddy with the C7 imo.
It’s parts count. Not watts. Like I said, a $148 Sony receiver will meet it's 100wpc specs and at low distortion. Look at the internal parts count, quality of parts, and weight. Use Google Images and believe nobody.
We recently had a double-blind level matched comparison between the $8500 75wpc Audio Research VSI75 and the $3399 PrimaLuna Dialogue Premium equipped with the same KT150 output tubes here at my store for members of Audiogon. Double-blind and level matched to within .1dB is the only real way to do it. The PrimaLuna had much less power. Not one person picked the VSI75 as better.
I have a latest production 75wpc McIntosh MC275 here with 200 hours on it, and minutes ago did a level matched A/B against a bone stock $3199 36wpc PrimaLuna DiaLogue Premium. No comparison. Most notably in dynamics. I’m leaving it hooked up for any Agon members to come and spend some time and they can report back here. We’re going to have the same comparison for the LA Orange County Audio Society when they have their meeting here on March 18.
Both the ARC and Mac amps are good amps. Good amps, good companies. Our position is get better electronics for less money and invest the difference in better speakers where you should invest the most dollars.
I was personally underwhelmed with the PL Dialogue Premium when I finally got to audition it with my speakers. Harbeth bass tends to be slow and underdamped so why would you want to add to that issue with an amp that is not very good at controlling those woofers. The Dialogue I heard was well broken in and had warmed up for at least 45 minutes and the bass was close to MIA. The bass I could hear was slow and mushy compared to the various other SS and tube amps I've auditioned. The end.
I can’t explain your bad experience but I can say my experience with PrimaLuna has been nothing but musically satisfying. I feel that it’s truly one of the best bargains in highend audio and I’m not meaning that as a slight to PL. I think companies like ARC, Ayre, VTL, CJ and others make great products but for me I couldn’t be more satisfied with my PrimaLuna components. Music is fun again and to me that’s what it’s all about. At the end of the day we all hear differently so buy what makes you tap your feet and what makes you smile. For me it’s freaking PrimaLuna!
Hey clarinetmonster2 where did you make your demo? Was it a dealer? What speaker tap did you use?
Stereophile Editor in Chief John Atkinson used a PrimaLuna HP specifically because of bass performance "speaking with a unified voice" when he reviewed the 87dB efficient YG Acoustics Carmel 2. To my knowledge he has never used a tube amp to write a speaker review at Stereophile. The fact that he chose the HP amazed even him when he said
"But once I'd found the amplifier—a tubed integrated!—that also played to its strengths, I very much enjoyed my time with the Carmel 2."
Getting back to the point about amplifier power, I suggest you do your own calculations which is very very easy AND enlightening. Most people never use more than 10 watts of power. Playing music at 87dB is pretty damn loud. If there are any electrical engineers on this thread they know this.
Put an SPL meter app on your phone and use this nifty calculator. It allows you to add the appropriate amount of headroom too. It's always good to arm yourself with knowledge especially when you go to a stereo store and the salesman knows less than you do.
I’ve owned a few pairs of Harbeth speakers, initially I thought high powered solid state amps sounded best. That was, until, I tried the HL5+ with a high quality tube amp (Air Tight ATM-2).
The Air Tight amp puts out 85 Watts, which was more than enough power for the Harebth to really sound their best.
Doing some home work, I am not sure that I am going to need all the power of 2 Dialogue Premium HP's used as mono blocks. I am hoping to get some time next week to get over to my dealer to hear the Dialogue Premium with there Dialogue Preamp
I would suggest emailing Gig Harbor Audio as I am pretty sure they sell both brands and know they would happily give you the benefit of their experience no matter where you live. The owner is honest and always happy to help.
For those who don't read the article, the response is on a simulated speaker load.
Transformers are designed to match an impedance. When they don't, frequency response curves like the those shown are the result. ALL transformer output amps will deliver a similar curve. If one were to log the current rather than the voltage on a solid state amp, a similar non-flat curve would result.
If one runs a room response graph with a tube amp and a solid state amp on the same speakers, they will overlay indicating the power to the speaker is the same.
I have a PL Prologue 5 driving 85db/W 3.6-12Ω speakers on the 8Ω tap. On some material it is scarily good. Bass is tight and detailed. It plays as loud as 100wpc solid state which is only 4db more power than the PL 36wpc. I can get 100db peaks on wide dynamic range orchestra material. My room is 16 * 33 and I sit 14' from the speakers. A tube amp cam be pushed farther than solid state, which get ugly FAST!
One visitor said "Your system is so precise." when I played him the PL.
Internally, the PL amps are gorgeous. No PCB / tube socket connection to fracture. It is my 5th tube amp dating back to Citation II, 2 x ARC and 1 custom KT-88 monster.
I've never heard a solid state amp ever come close to the sound stage presentation of a good tube amp. Sure they're colored, but so is every thing!
If you can afford it, dual mono are always the way to go.
Definitely get a refundable demo.
DISCLAIMER: I also appreciate a good solid state amp.
Get a dual mono, hybrid ss class A amp. By far the best sound reproduction available. Don’t care if it’s chinese, Japanese or American. They all use top notch parts and weigh a ton. I’ve heard a Cayin compared to a luxman and would take either. Class A baby with those Harbeths.
Hey for any of you guys that question PrimaLuna in the Seattle area I invite you to come to my home and listen to them make my Magnepan 20.7’s sing. Again a speaker that is deemed a power hog and at 87db has never sounded so go in my listen room. No bullshit I get chills when I’m listening to music and a lot of that is due to PL and it’s amazing build and sound quality.
I didn’t realize I have a customer who owns Harbeth 30.1's and just this week he traded in his McIntosh MA6600 for a PrimaLuna HP integrated. He sent me this note minutes ago. The HP is new new new and I’ve asked him to check back with updates as it breaks in. He's very well-read and has a lot of experience.
His observations thus far:
"I have pretty transparent and precise sources - both turntable and SACD player - and unfortunately with my prior solid state amp they sounded almost clinical. The music no longer moved me and my listening sessions shortened as I quickly became disinterested. In the hopes of fixing this, I decided to try tubes again (I had a CJ PV5 30 years ago) and the PL is apparently not only the prescription but the cure. "
"I play acoustic guitar and sing a bit, solo and with others, so I’m particularly sensitive to the sound of acoustic instruments and unamplified human voice. Gillian Welch and David Rawlings could have been playing right in front of me - the tone of his 1935 Epiphone Olympic archtop unmistakable. Satchmo has never sounded better - his voice warm and vibrant - and Ella clear and pure. All instruments sounded natural. Then I threw in a little live electric blues - Clapton playing Eyesight for the Blind. I had to turn it up and there it was - goosebumps. My eyes had been closing, my head swaying, my toes tapping throughout, but the goosebumps sealed the deal. I’m not good at using audio terms to describe what I hear (I really couldn’t care less about that). What I care about is how I relate to the music I’m listening to - am I moved, am I swept up, does everything else seem to fall away? Once I put the PL into my system all of these tests were met and I was thoroughly enjoying the music. That is what I was looking for."
"I’m leaving the amp on overnight to make sure all the tubes have settled (I won’t be leaving it on thereafter) and I’ve already been bitten by the tube rolling bug (no need to, just curiosity) and have ordered a pair of Cifte 12AU7s from you. I can’t wait to hear this puppy once it’s broken in a bit and I’ve swapped in the new tubes."
"My system now consists of: Clearaudio Ovation turntable/Clearaudio Universal tonearm/Lyra Delos/Esoteric E-03; Apple Air/Ayre QB-9 DSD; McIntosh MCD500; Pioneer RT-909 reel to reel; PrimaLuna DiaLogue Premium HP Integrated Amplifier; Harbeth 30.1 Monitors; Shunyata Venom PS8 Power Distributor, Venom Defender, Venom HC and Venom 3 PCs; Cardas Clear USB Cable; and WireWorld Silver Eclipse 7 ICs and speaker cables."
"The PrimaLuna DiaLogue Premium HP Integrated Amplifier replaces a McIntosh MA6600 Integrated that will be sent to you later this week as a trade-in."
This is spot on and I share the same sentiments. I don’t know all the audiophile terms to describe music but I do know what makes my fingers snap, feet tap, head bob and what brings me a smile of sheer enjoyment. I love my PrimaLuna and I don’t care what anyone else may say or think. My friends and family will tell you that I have the most incredible concerts in my listening room every night at 7 PM. General admission is, however it’s a BYOD type of party...LOL!
Thanks again guy's, I really am in appreciation to you all for your thoughts, comments and so on, I know I have got to get over to my dealer and try the Primaluna out, it just finding the time at the moment.
Upscaleaudio , Thanks for your help on this matter, I would be very grateful if you could up date me with Chris findings with his Primaluna amp and Harbeth 30.1's speakers
I've now heard from one current dealer and and another former dealer that say PL sound nice but the QC is not the greatest. One said he sells both Rogue and PL and the Rogue is built more consistently. They both said that there are a high number, relatively speaking, of PL warranty claims compared to others like Rogue.
PrimaLuna QC and build quality is better than most any brand at any price, and the proof of that is from well-read,technically adept, independent reviewers that have stated that over and over. And it's backed up by a 3 year warranty that does not include hidden charges like certain other brands.
Read what Stereophile's Art Dudley said. He knows tube amps. His words: "the amp is far from ho-hum: the quality and care with which it's made. Apart from the above-mentioned AutoBias circuit and the logic bits for the remote control, the DiaLogue Seven is completely hand-wired, point to point—and I've never seen a better-built amp. Wires were neatly trimmed and dressed, with no strand out of place. I spent a long time trying to find a single bad solder join, and could not: Someone made this as if it mattered."
Or Stereophile's Herb Reichert who has modified and serviced countless tube amps including restoration of venerable vintage amps like tube Marantz. He reviewed the ENTRY LEVEL PrimaLuna and said:
"When I removed the ProLogue Premium's bottom plate, I was instantly impressed by the quality of parts and labor I saw. I've serviced countless tube amps, including some of the world's most expensive, and have never seen better-crafted point-to-point wiring or more intelligent layout. On their website, PrimaLuna makes a big deal about their tube sockets being bolted directly to their steel chassis. This is because it is a big deal—it makes their products more durable and trouble free than those of competitors who attach tube sockets directly to circuit boards. The latter strategy saves space, labor, and money, but every time the user removes or inserts a tube, there's a danger of irreparably damaging the board. Over time, that danger becomes a certainty."
"Likewise with those volume controls and selector switches I was talking about. Many of the biggest high-end names use a $4 chip, a DS1666 Audio Digital Resistor, as a solid-state potentiometer to control volume; PrimaLuna uses a motorized Blue Velvet potentiometer, made by Alps in Japan, that costs at least ten times as much. Expensive, Japanese-made relays are used for the source-selector switch."
I have no doubt that Rogue and most other brands have great QC. PrimaLuna has safety features not found in any other brand to keep it out of the shop ten years later. Every tube amp on the planet can break....especially those that run tubes hard. PrimaLuna is made to be used every day. And they are.
@clarinetmonster2 I was quite surprised by the unqualified warranty claim. How many Rogues are sold vs PrimaLuna?
I've been involved with tube amplifiers since the 1950's. PrimaLuna are built as well as any and far better than most. Solder work is flawless, looming is impeccable. In the unlikely event repairs are needed, serviceability is very high.
I would be very curious to know the 'faults' in the repairs. Are they caused by excessive tube rolling, faulty tubes, installing the wrong tube type or running hard with a mismatched load?
I don't really have an agenda to fulfill just making sure everybody's aware of what I've heard. I can give you my source if you'd like. He is a good dealer and he said he would tell Kevin to his face the same things that he said to me when I called him and asked him advice on Prima Luna versus Rogue since he sells both and likes both.
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