I’ve heard nothing but good things about Kevin, upscale audio and have experienced only good clean sounds from my PL system. My dealer has only extolled virtue. Great amp knowledgeable gentleman.
Has Anyone Uesed A PrimaLuna Amp With Harbeth Speaker's
Hi guys, I will be on the market soon for a new amp and I keep looking at the Primaluna Amps, has anyone heard the Primaluna Dialogue Premium amp driving a pair of Harbeth's 30.1 speakers? these are 87d/b and I am not sure how this will work out?
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I've heard all three and the PrimaLuna on Focal expensive speakers several years ago and it sounded very nice. Unlike the MC275 which I've heard many times and am totally unimpressed (flat soundstage, tonally thin for a tube amp and bland/no dynamics). My friend has a pair of ARC75s but our mutual friend prefers the ARC Classic 60, which sounds more like a PrimaLuna amp. VAC is an upgraded version (and the original autobias feature) of a PrimaLuna. One can purchase 3 to 4 pairs of PrimaLuna monoblocks for the price of one VAC200IQ. I strongly do not recommend the MC275 in any version. The best sounding Macs are the 240, 225 and 30. Plus, they probably would drive the Harbeth nicely with their current supply. The 30 sounds like 60 watts and has great transformers.. |
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yep, this thread is a good example of the "straight shooter" character you speak so highly of: https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/very-bad-purchase-from-upscale-audio-acoustic-zen-adagio |
Kevin can be a bit gruff at times. But he is not the only dealer for PL. http://www.primaluna-usa.com/dealer-locator |
@clarintmonster2 - Damn I hate that you had a bad experience but you’re really missing out on a high end gem in PL. I have replaced my Audio Research amp and preamp with PL and haven’t looked back. My Magnepans have never ever sounded so good. I got to hear some Harbeth’s as i was auditioning a turntable and they are good sounding speakers that I believe PL’s with the right tubes (amp) would provide you with a fantastic listening enjoyment. Get you pair of PL Dialogue Premium HP amps and take the saving and buy your significant other something nice...LOL Cheers |
I have owned and used a PL Dialogue Premium preamp for almost three years on a daily basis and have had nothing..(nil,nought,zero,zilch,zip) issues of any sort with this unit. And the fact that I like rolling tubes a lot [eight total] has done zero harm to the integrity [bolted.. not soldered to a board] of the preamps tube sockets is a h-u-g-e bonus. Its a tank. I can not give this product a better rating for its quality of build and sound across the board. The only thing that is missing from this pre.. to me at least.. would be a 'special edition' version of this unit that could maybe take it to the next higher musical level...if that is even at all possible... 8) |
Just buy it used and you can’t go wrong in my book. I got a prologue 3 preamp for $850 and prologue 5 amp for $900 both brand new, just by staying a mode behind the current line up. I do feel the quality control was much better so that’s worth it alone IMO. Even a dialogue 2 integrated would be my choice over the current dialogue “premium” integrated. |
After reading what clarinetmonster2 was told from one current dealer and another former dealer, ( I've now heard from one current dealer and another former dealer that say PL sound nice but the QC is not the greatest. One said he sells both Rogue and PL and the Rogue is built more consistently. They both said that there are a high number, relatively speaking, of PL warranty claims compared to others like Rogue.) I decided to call my dealer to make an appointment to try out the PrimaLuna amps & pre amps, but also to ask him about any problems that he has had, or knowns off, with the PrimaLuna product’s and of there QC. I have been using this dealer for many years now and he does seem to known his product’s that he sells, I trust in what he says, and he always seems to point you in the right direction. He said the same, that PrimaLuna are built as well as any and far better than most and that he wished all of his products that he kept, were as well made as the PrimaLuna. I then called a 2nd dealer who sell’s PrimaLuna, I have never used them but they are well knoing here in the UK, and asked them the same question, they told me much the same as my own dealer did. |
I am not sure about quality control issues, but I did have an issue with my Primaluna HP integrated leaking noise between inputs, which made me wonder if the input relay was in fact doing anything. Kevin assured me this was not an issue but it bothered me enough to sell it. The prologue 3 preamp / prologue 5 amp had no such issue and I didn’t think upgrading to the HP integrated would leave me feeling regretful. But sometimes we just get the short straw. I since upgraded to a Backert Rhumba 1.2 preamp and Paradox Pulse Monoblocks and I will say the dynamics and noise floor alone, are in another league. We should all remember there is no brand that lacks competition. |
I don't really have an agenda to fulfill just making sure everybody's aware of what I've heard. I can give you my source if you'd like. He is a good dealer and he said he would tell Kevin to his face the same things that he said to me when I called him and asked him advice on Prima Luna versus Rogue since he sells both and likes both. |
@clarinetmonster2 I was quite surprised by the unqualified warranty claim. How many Rogues are sold vs PrimaLuna? I've been involved with tube amplifiers since the 1950's. PrimaLuna are built as well as any and far better than most. Solder work is flawless, looming is impeccable. In the unlikely event repairs are needed, serviceability is very high. I would be very curious to know the 'faults' in the repairs. Are they caused by excessive tube rolling, faulty tubes, installing the wrong tube type or running hard with a mismatched load? |
PrimaLuna QC and build quality is better than most any brand at any price, and the proof of that is from well-read,technically adept, independent reviewers that have stated that over and over. And it's backed up by a 3 year warranty that does not include hidden charges like certain other brands. Read what Stereophile's Art Dudley said. He knows tube amps. His words: "the amp is far from ho-hum: the quality and care with which it's made. Apart from the above-mentioned AutoBias circuit and the logic bits for the remote control, the DiaLogue Seven is completely hand-wired, point to point—and I've never seen a better-built amp. Wires were neatly trimmed and dressed, with no strand out of place. I spent a long time trying to find a single bad solder join, and could not: Someone made this as if it mattered." Or Stereophile's Herb Reichert who has modified and serviced countless tube amps including restoration of venerable vintage amps like tube Marantz. He reviewed the ENTRY LEVEL PrimaLuna and said: "When I removed the ProLogue Premium's bottom plate, I was instantly impressed by the quality of parts and labor I saw. I've serviced countless tube amps, including some of the world's most expensive, and have never seen better-crafted point-to-point wiring or more intelligent layout. On their website, PrimaLuna makes a big deal about their tube sockets being bolted directly to their steel chassis. This is because it is a big deal—it makes their products more durable and trouble free than those of competitors who attach tube sockets directly to circuit boards. The latter strategy saves space, labor, and money, but every time the user removes or inserts a tube, there's a danger of irreparably damaging the board. Over time, that danger becomes a certainty." "Likewise with those volume controls and selector switches I was talking about. Many of the biggest high-end names use a $4 chip, a DS1666 Audio Digital Resistor, as a solid-state potentiometer to control volume; PrimaLuna uses a motorized Blue Velvet potentiometer, made by Alps in Japan, that costs at least ten times as much. Expensive, Japanese-made relays are used for the source-selector switch." I have no doubt that Rogue and most other brands have great QC. PrimaLuna has safety features not found in any other brand to keep it out of the shop ten years later. Every tube amp on the planet can break....especially those that run tubes hard. PrimaLuna is made to be used every day. And they are. |
I've now heard from one current dealer and and another former dealer that say PL sound nice but the QC is not the greatest. One said he sells both Rogue and PL and the Rogue is built more consistently. They both said that there are a high number, relatively speaking, of PL warranty claims compared to others like Rogue. |
Thanks again guy's, I really am in appreciation to you all for your thoughts, comments and so on, I know I have got to get over to my dealer and try the Primaluna out, it just finding the time at the moment. Upscaleaudio , Thanks for your help on this matter, I would be very grateful if you could up date me with Chris findings with his Primaluna amp and Harbeth 30.1's speakers Many Thank's Steve. |
@upscaleaudio This is spot on and I share the same sentiments. I don’t know all the audiophile terms to describe music but I do know what makes my fingers snap, feet tap, head bob and what brings me a smile of sheer enjoyment. I love my PrimaLuna and I don’t care what anyone else may say or think. My friends and family will tell you that I have the most incredible concerts in my listening room every night at 7 PM. General admission is, however it’s a BYOD type of party...LOL! Cheers! |
I didn’t realize I have a customer who owns Harbeth 30.1's and just this week he traded in his McIntosh MA6600 for a PrimaLuna HP integrated. He sent me this note minutes ago. The HP is new new new and I’ve asked him to check back with updates as it breaks in. He's very well-read and has a lot of experience. His observations thus far: "I have pretty transparent and precise sources - both turntable and SACD player - and unfortunately with my prior solid state amp they sounded almost clinical. The music no longer moved me and my listening sessions shortened as I quickly became disinterested. In the hopes of fixing this, I decided to try tubes again (I had a CJ PV5 30 years ago) and the PL is apparently not only the prescription but the cure. "
"I play acoustic guitar and sing a bit, solo and with others, so I’m particularly sensitive to the sound of acoustic instruments and unamplified human voice. Gillian Welch and David Rawlings could have been playing right in front of me - the tone of his 1935 Epiphone Olympic archtop unmistakable. Satchmo has never sounded better - his voice warm and vibrant - and Ella clear and pure. All instruments sounded natural. Then I threw in a little live electric blues - Clapton playing Eyesight for the Blind. I had to turn it up and there it was - goosebumps. My eyes had been closing, my head swaying, my toes tapping throughout, but the goosebumps sealed the deal. I’m not good at using audio terms to describe what I hear (I really couldn’t care less about that). What I care about is how I relate to the music I’m listening to - am I moved, am I swept up, does everything else seem to fall away? Once I put the PL into my system all of these tests were met and I was thoroughly enjoying the music. That is what I was looking for."
"I’m leaving the amp on overnight to make sure all the tubes have settled (I won’t be leaving it on thereafter) and I’ve already been bitten by the tube rolling bug (no need to, just curiosity) and have ordered a pair of Cifte 12AU7s from you. I can’t wait to hear this puppy once it’s broken in a bit and I’ve swapped in the new tubes."
"My system now consists of: Clearaudio Ovation turntable/Clearaudio Universal tonearm/Lyra Delos/Esoteric E-03; Apple Air/Ayre QB-9 DSD; McIntosh MCD500; Pioneer RT-909 reel to reel; PrimaLuna DiaLogue Premium HP Integrated Amplifier; Harbeth 30.1 Monitors; Shunyata Venom PS8 Power Distributor, Venom Defender, Venom HC and Venom 3 PCs; Cardas Clear USB Cable; and WireWorld Silver Eclipse 7 ICs and speaker cables."
"The PrimaLuna DiaLogue Premium HP Integrated Amplifier replaces a McIntosh MA6600 Integrated that will be sent to you later this week as a trade-in."
"I’m really happy, thank you. Chris." |
Hey for any of you guys that question PrimaLuna in the Seattle area I invite you to come to my home and listen to them make my Magnepan 20.7’s sing. Again a speaker that is deemed a power hog and at 87db has never sounded so go in my listen room. No bullshit I get chills when I’m listening to music and a lot of that is due to PL and it’s amazing build and sound quality. Cheers |
Just look at these Stereophile measurements: https://www.stereophile.com/content/primaluna-dialogue-premium-power-amplifier-measurements it has a pretty bad load dependent frequency response. For those who don't read the article, the response is on a simulated speaker load. Transformers are designed to match an impedance. When they don't, frequency response curves like the those shown are the result. ALL transformer output amps will deliver a similar curve. If one were to log the current rather than the voltage on a solid state amp, a similar non-flat curve would result. If one runs a room response graph with a tube amp and a solid state amp on the same speakers, they will overlay indicating the power to the speaker is the same. I have a PL Prologue 5 driving 85db/W 3.6-12Ω speakers on the 8Ω tap. On some material it is scarily good. Bass is tight and detailed. It plays as loud as 100wpc solid state which is only 4db more power than the PL 36wpc. I can get 100db peaks on wide dynamic range orchestra material. My room is 16 * 33 and I sit 14' from the speakers. A tube amp cam be pushed farther than solid state, which get ugly FAST! One visitor said "Your system is so precise." when I played him the PL. Internally, the PL amps are gorgeous. No PCB / tube socket connection to fracture. It is my 5th tube amp dating back to Citation II, 2 x ARC and 1 custom KT-88 monster. I've never heard a solid state amp ever come close to the sound stage presentation of a good tube amp. Sure they're colored, but so is every thing! If you can afford it, dual mono are always the way to go. Definitely get a refundable demo. DISCLAIMER: I also appreciate a good solid state amp. |
I’ve owned a few pairs of Harbeth speakers, initially I thought high powered solid state amps sounded best. That was, until, I tried the HL5+ with a high quality tube amp (Air Tight ATM-2). The Air Tight amp puts out 85 Watts, which was more than enough power for the Harebth to really sound their best. |
Getting back to the point about amplifier power, I suggest you do your own calculations which is very very easy AND enlightening. Most people never use more than 10 watts of power. Playing music at 87dB is pretty damn loud. If there are any electrical engineers on this thread they know this. Put an SPL meter app on your phone and use this nifty calculator. It allows you to add the appropriate amount of headroom too. It's always good to arm yourself with knowledge especially when you go to a stereo store and the salesman knows less than you do. https://geoffthegreygeek.com/calculator-amp-speaker-spl/ |
Hey clarinetmonster2 where did you make your demo? Was it a dealer? What speaker tap did you use? Stereophile Editor in Chief John Atkinson used a PrimaLuna HP specifically because of bass performance "speaking with a unified voice" when he reviewed the 87dB efficient YG Acoustics Carmel 2. To my knowledge he has never used a tube amp to write a speaker review at Stereophile. The fact that he chose the HP amazed even him when he said "But once I'd found the amplifier—a tubed integrated!—that also played to its strengths, I very much enjoyed my time with the Carmel 2." Read more at https://www.stereophile.com/content/yg-acoustics-carmel-2-loudspeaker-page-2#BhT8uVLCJuJ19aap.99 |
@clarinetmonster2. I can’t explain your bad experience but I can say my experience with PrimaLuna has been nothing but musically satisfying. I feel that it’s truly one of the best bargains in highend audio and I’m not meaning that as a slight to PL. I think companies like ARC, Ayre, VTL, CJ and others make great products but for me I couldn’t be more satisfied with my PrimaLuna components. Music is fun again and to me that’s what it’s all about. At the end of the day we all hear differently so buy what makes you tap your feet and what makes you smile. For me it’s freaking PrimaLuna! Cheers |
I was personally underwhelmed with the PL Dialogue Premium when I finally got to audition it with my speakers. Harbeth bass tends to be slow and underdamped so why would you want to add to that issue with an amp that is not very good at controlling those woofers. The Dialogue I heard was well broken in and had warmed up for at least 45 minutes and the bass was close to MIA. The bass I could hear was slow and mushy compared to the various other SS and tube amps I've auditioned. The end. |
It’s parts count. Not watts. Like I said, a $148 Sony receiver will meet it's 100wpc specs and at low distortion. Look at the internal parts count, quality of parts, and weight. Use Google Images and believe nobody. We recently had a double-blind level matched comparison between the $8500 75wpc Audio Research VSI75 and the $3399 PrimaLuna Dialogue Premium equipped with the same KT150 output tubes here at my store for members of Audiogon. Double-blind and level matched to within .1dB is the only real way to do it. The PrimaLuna had much less power. Not one person picked the VSI75 as better. I have a latest production 75wpc McIntosh MC275 here with 200 hours on it, and minutes ago did a level matched A/B against a bone stock $3199 36wpc PrimaLuna DiaLogue Premium. No comparison. Most notably in dynamics. I’m leaving it hooked up for any Agon members to come and spend some time and they can report back here. We’re going to have the same comparison for the LA Orange County Audio Society when they have their meeting here on March 18. Both the ARC and Mac amps are good amps. Good amps, good companies. Our position is get better electronics for less money and invest the difference in better speakers where you should invest the most dollars. |
upscaleaudio205 posts03-01-2018 4:45amRead Herb Reichert’s Stereophile review of the 86dB efficient Dynaudio Contour 20 with the SMALLEST $2199 PrimaLuna power amp. He stated "The combo of Dynaudio Contour 20s and PrimaLuna ProLogue Premium played all the mountain ennui and fierce forward momentum that make classic bluegrass unique in the American songbook". https://www.stereophile.com/content/dynaudio-contour-20-loudspeaker It may be your preference to not look at the amp wattage prior to a purchase but the spec is still an important factor. The main problem is most amp manufacturers have the tendency to make the figures look good on paper. It’s not entirely down to watts but the transient power from the power supply (transformer) where a robust power supply will be able to control voltage and amp swings more effectively than a lesser one. Some amps which show higher watts on paper may sound significantly less powerful when compared to one that has a lower watt figure. Case in point, a 60 or 70W amp which sounds much more powerful than a 100W or 150W amp. When specifying power output, most amp manufacturers tend to "over-specify" the figures based on test resistors which do not reflect on real world performance. Apart from this factor, the power supply that can deliver the transient power (measured in VA) will also play a role. In summary, I disagree with your last paragraph. In proper context, the power that is required to effectively drive the speakers is rather significant and will have bearing on sound quality. It’s not all about volume but other aspects of sound reproduction or amplifier design such as transient delivery which is influenced by slew rate and current rise times. |
