Harbeth 30.1 ? The Ultimate Speaker under $5K ?

@tommypenngotti, I believe the Tekton DI, based on what I have read, and I have read it all, would be an excellent choice. To be clear, I still have not heard them, but the descriptions by owners and reviewers has me to believe they are as satisfying as can be, especially at the price. In fact, although I never posted on the Tekton threads, I would finally like to listen to a pair, and believe me when I say, I am very happy with my current system. With a money back guarantee, all you would be out is the shipping cost back, if it came to that. I am tempted myself. Enjoy ! MrD.

I have ATC and have auditioned Harbeth extensively. The mid range of Harbeth is excellent. The bass is not as tight as I would like and the driver integration isn’t as good. That said Harbeth would easily be my second choice for a warm FM sounding speaker that works great at moderate volumes. They sound really sweet. Great for acoustic, small jazz ensemble, vocals etc - not the speaker of choice for a rock drummer though.

Harbeth mid range uses a soft cone material that is inert. Some form of polypropylene that remains soft and stable. Similar to ATC which use a doped fabric both drivers are intrinsically damped. I believe this is the trick to audibly superior mid range - others are chasing highly rigid materials for cones and these all have a characteristic resonances that are imparted on top of the music. An intrinsically damped cone has blacker blacks to use a visual analogy. This is why Harbeth mid range sounds so clean.

FWIW - the other BBC designs with the harder polypropylene material a la Rogers etc. can not compare to Harbeth. The harder polypropylene cones used in most other BBC knock offs imparts a nasal character to the mid range.

08-12-2018 1:07pmi dont know
i feel like theres a limit to opinions and sometime we need to compare two speakers in the same room and the preference will be much less subjective then we think.

everyone who both heard, in my room, the graham ls59 and harbeth shl5plus prefered the harbeth. all i care to say.

This debate could go on endlessly if we start throwing in the differences in partnering gear and rooms. If we all heard exactly alike, we'd have the same size and shape of ears - our ear bones would have to be identical in shape and size as well, and have suffered the same level of deterioration. 

It seems to me you're inferring that you have the final say in what constitutes "natural" sound, simply because you've made some A/B comparisons with a few buddies. 

 You apparently believe in the importance measurements. If measured performance is so critical to the enjoyment of a speaker, you might as well go buy a $500 pair of studio monitors.

Peace.

can't we all just get along !! ;) I've started a Harbeth vs the world riot ...

I'm leaning towards the Tekton DI's ...difficult to just buy something and hope it suits me , I'm very picky about speakers/sound. 

Just to make clear. ATC 150 are my reference. Will have them forever. But the fact is that a lot of the music I listen to are not well enough recorded to play really loud on the ATC. Hurts my very sensitive right ear! Sometimes also you need another speaker to compensate for lack of bass in a recording or just to make it listenable. I use a vintage Yamaha M-85 amplifier with the possiblity to connect three speaker pairs.
Fine, often see recommendations for DeVore. Not easy to get hold on in Europe unfortunately. Will keep you posted!

gosta
i had jbl lsr6332. couldnt warmed to it

vintage tannoys? had tannoy berkeley, gold, ect and never would desbribe them as warm. 
im surprised you dont love atc scm150a.
maybe devore 093 could give you the warmness you want. id also been curious about audio note ane and pap open baffle speakers. imo harbeth shl5plus are great and not unforgiving or analytical.

keep us posted on your speaker tryout

i dont know
i feel like theres a limit to opinions and sometime we need to compare two speakers in the same room and the preference will be much less subjective then we think.

everyone who both heard, in my room, the graham ls59 and harbeth shl5plus prefered the harbeth. all i care to say. 

@ Helomech

Thanks for your input. Yes, my next speaker set need to provide me with a little more warmth when playing not so perfect recordings (like most rock and sometimes pop like Adele). I thought the Tannoys DC10A would bring me that, but they are merciless...(like the ATC 150). I'm still running them in (letting my head get used to them) to later compare them direct to the ATC. On good recordings they are fantastic though with the best soundstage I experienced so far (yes, including ATC). Extremely precise. I run them with their big DC subwoofer.

Maybe I already got the "warmer" loudspeaker in a pair of Gamut M7 which I pair with two SVS sb-16 subs (Lyngdorf 2200). They are both warmer in the mids and softer in the highs (Scanspeak revelator drivers) and can play very loud without disturbing distortion. However, for good recordings the ATC and the Tannoys for me are superior. So, maybe it's of no use for me to think about a traditional english speaker to complete my setup. Maybe I should look for something else. Vintage Tannoys?

Recommend a listen to Bonnie Raitt "In session" - early live acoustic.

@murphythecat

I could really care less what you’re "tired of" me doing. I couldn’t give to licks about your opinions and they are just that - opinions - they’re no more valid than my own. You’re not going to stop me from posting my own. Yes, the C7s are the only Harbeths I’ve actually owned, but I’ve heard the others in dedicated listening rooms, driven by high-end gear. I’ve heard them enough to have formed my conclusion - that they don’t sound as natural or as resolving as the others. It’s just my opinion and it’s no more valid than yours. Folks here can take it for just that. I’ve become a bit of a Spendor fanboy, but in case you didn’t,
notice, I recommended the OP consider Klipsch or Tannoy for his needs. I won’t claim that Spendor are the end-all be-all of speaker design or that they’ll sound most natural to every listener.

I can tell you that I really wanted to prefer Harbeths, because I love the aesthetics of their cabinets - especially the Eucalyptus and Zebrawood veneers. Unfortunately, they just don’t do it for me sonically. I’m glad you’re happy with the SHL5s - really, because all that matters in the end is that we’re happy with our individual systems. All I suggested to the OP was that he give the competition a chance, and not assume the M30s are the best speaker under $5K. I’m sure you would agree that it’s foolish to make such an assumption about any speaker without some auditions.

@gosta

I wouldn’t call the Harbeth bass "muddy," but it’s definitely not as punchy or dynamic as ATC. - that goes for all the BBC derivatives. What bothered me about the C7s, especially, was their cabinet was very easy to localize in the sound "picture." They didn’t perform the disappearing act very well. The bass was sort of like what I find in stock automotive speakers - overblown in the upper bass. It’s hard to describe, other than to say it sounded like the cone was working a little too hard and the cabinet needed a larger port. That wasn’t the case as much with the SHL5 but it was with the M30s.

The Harbeth midrange is pretty good but they just don’t resolve as much of the music as the competition. They have a brighter treble and upper midrange, which I suspect may be mistaken for greater detail by many listeners. I think the inherent benefits of a plastic cone are lost on Harbeths, because to my ears, they sound like what I associate with ceramic-coated aluminum drivers. It’s as though their goal of creating a very stiff plastic cone resulted in negating the inherent dampening properties of the plastic - so they sound almost like a metal cone. That’s just how I hear them and it goes for the whole range, from the P3s to the M40s.

I’m reluctant to provide these opinions because as you’ve probably noticed, their fanbase is an extremely sensitive and defensive bunch. As I’ve said before, this isn’t to say they’re bad speakers in the grand scheme of things, but I strongly feel they are over-hyped. I can only guess their popularity has to do with their much larger distribution network (in the U.S. anyway), their greater presence at hi-fi shows, and Alan Shaw’s subtle but effective prowess in content marketing. I also have to wonder if some of the audio rags are on their take. Tone Audio wrote a comparison piece where they claimed the C7s were a much better speaker than the Stirling Broadcast SB-88s. I couldn’t have disagreed more with that review. IME and opinion, the reality is quite the opposite. The SB-88s are the better speakers unless one judges them solely on expanse of the soundstage.

Being that you’re accustomed to ATC and Tannoy, I don’t know that you should bother with a BBC type speaker unless you want something a little warmer, in which case I’d recommend either the Grahams or Spendor Classics.

helomech, im not in the least offended.

my experience with harbeth is different then yours. i dont consider myself biased because i bought the graham ls59, and the harbeth shl5plus. ive lived with both for over 6 months. i found the harbeth more natural, engaging and musical then graham. the graham also have a measurable bbc dip of about -4db between 1.7khz up to 3.8 khz. maybe what you call natural is actually a bit colored (bbc dip)?

the graham ls59 also have a weird 2-3db peak around 6khz. all my measurements were confirmed by graham. i thought the graham were great and very similar then harbeth.

im not married to harbeth but to call them the least natural is the exact opposite of my experience. i wont even talk about spendor as ive not liked one spendor speaker ive audition. even d7 was imo coloured and unnatural

what im tired of seeing from you is in every thread mentionning harbeth you come in and claim the superiority of every other bbc conpanies. your only real experience is with the c7es3. i think the c7es3 is the worst harbeth model there is. id even take p3esr plus sub over c7es3.
so you base your entire narrative about harbeth having owned only one model. seems a bit weird and dishonest.

i also find the 30.1 much less good then shl5plus. the 30.1 coloration in the bass is subtle but a bit obvious.

look at stereophile measurements of the shl5plus. its flat down to 40hz and -6db at 30hz. with room gain it easily hits 30hz when well placed.

@helomech
How would you describe "don't hold a candle"? Are Harbeth speakers muddy in the upper bass/midrange? My references are ATC and Tannoy large models which I would describe as quite the opposite of muddy. Interested to complete with a BBC derivative just to be able to compare the sound. 

Have nothing against Harbeth speakers, I listen at a dealer for a few hours to a pair of 30.1 that I had lusted after for years, left the shop very disappointed and confused. A year later I bought Graham Audio ls5/9 unheard as I wanted to own a bbc speaker once in my lifetime, having read a lot of reviews and user experience on the differences of the two speakers I took the chance.
I find the difference to be quite big, the 30.1 was too much in my face, very detailed and the tweeter was notably in the picture, the Graham’s have a lot of detail, but somehow for me seam more coherent in there sound, also I like the bass of the Graham’s more.
Somehow seeing how many Harbeth owners like to use tube amps with their speakers make sense to me.

@murphythecat

It’s clear you have an obvious bias for Harbeth being that you own the SHL5s. I’m sorry you get so easily offended, but I hear what I hear and in my opinion, Harbeths are the least natural sounding of the BBC derivatives. My first experience with the brand was buying a pair of C7s - against my dealer’s recommendation as he too prefers the other brands despite selling a lot of Harbeths. He said they’re one of his best sellers because people don’t even bother to audition the competition - they just drink the Harbeth Kool Aid and insist on buying them, just as I did in the beginning.
Even after I went with a different brand I continued to give other Harbeths a chance, but they just don’t hold a candle when it comes to tone, microdynamics and inner detail. People often refer to them as BBC speakers with a "modern" sound. I’d agree with that because I find them just a bit fatiguing as I do many modern speakers. I’ll admit they throw a wider soundstage than the others, and I like their appearance the best - sort of ironic considering Spendor manufactures their cabinets.

BTW, there's no way in #€(( the SHL5s go clear down to 30Hz, and you certainly woudln't know buy listening to them in your tiny space. 

its clear Helomech has some sort of negative bias towards harbeth. saying that Spendor, stirling, graham are all better then Harbeth seem very bold statement. to be able to claim this, one would have to have all the same type of model from every brand in the same room. he have not done this. he just like to shit on harbeth.

what I did do is compare P3esr and shl5plus with graham ls59 in my room for a few months and preferred to keep shl5plus

I also compared different spendor model vs p3esr and in every case the p3esr was better in tonality and overall performance apart from bass

For op, the shl5plus goes surprisingly deep when well placed in room, down to 30hz flat with room gain.

man those look cool , don't think Im up for an east coast trip soon though ;) 

vacation trip to atlanta and if you buy them get him to deduct the cost of your trip from the speakers.

right , heard of those...no way I'd spend $5K without hearing ;) 

verastarr is known  for cables (expensive)

Holy Stormtroopers! Verastarr ...I never know what to think when I see these companies Ive never heard of , but every killer company started somewhere I suppose...

I haven't heard these but take a look.
https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lis93301-verastarr-grandmaster-loudspeaker-like-having-a-live-band...

" Open baffle "

I never rely on anyone when they say " blows them out of the water ". It is all opinion, and I disagree.  Crank any drum recording, such as the Sheffield drum record to peaks of 110 db, and they will fall apart. It depends on what you want. But, like the larger Harbeths, worth a listen. Listen to as much as possible, because each of us are different in what we want. Enjoy ! MrD.

I just got recommended these curious open ended speakers...anyone? Guy said they blow all Klipsch out of the water ...

http://www.spatialaudio.us/m3-triode-master/

The 40.1's and .2's are a big physical presence in a room.  You can look at the dimensions and even mark them out on the floor in painter's tape, but you need to see them to appreciate how imposing they are.  If your room can accommodate them, they are great (in my opinion).  They need a couple of feet each way away from side ways, 3' even better.  I am led to believe the .1's can be boomy in smaller rooms, the .2's tamed that.  That being said, there are some good deals to be had on .1's.  The Spendor SP100 Mk1's are in some respects more like that classic sound than the Mk2's, if you can find a pair without too many miles on them.

@tom_hankins If you read above, the OP did audition the SHL5s and gave his impressions. He would consider them, used, and would use a sub with them. Enjoy ! MrD.

If you're locked into Harbeth Imo the bigger SHL5's might do better in your room.
Personally if my budget was $5k I'd get a new pair of Elac Adante AF-61 speakers.

Hi, Harbeth has a passive studio version of the 40.2 that is quite less expensive. Not the great looks of course.

And why not try to hear the JBL LSR 6332 passive studio monitors. They with a sub would also play you out of your room :-) Can be had used within your budget. 

HELOMECH ...here’s the deal with that , its a trap to a degree , once you get the 30.1’s , Harbeth comes out with the BETTER bigger, ones 40.1 , then 40.2’s ....I want to buy something and be done with it , not worry that the upgraded model is so much better....but you’re right 40.1 better for my room for sure...40.2! $15K! done :) BTW , most of the people I’ve talked to on Audiomart selling their 30.1’s are upgrading to 40.1 or 40.2 !

I called Klipsch and they referred me to a place in Sacramento that may have their Heritage lines on floor....if not I’ll definitely get to LA eventually to scope out...thanks!

They make small changes periodically, like every 8 years or so, if that. I can’t imagine the difference would be worth replacing a pair of .1s. I also doubt they’ll be coming out with a larger model anytime in the near future.

If you’re patient, you could probably find a near-mint pair of Spendor SP100s for under $4K - approximately same size as 40.1s and better sounding IMO - better than some $20K speakers. However, they too are not really designed for hard rock. The Spendor D7s might just fit your needs - British midrange with some real bass power.

When I was in Sac last year, the only Hi-Fi dealers were Magnolia - inside Best Buy, and Paradyme Sight and Sound. Neither had Klipsch Heritage, but hopefully that’s changed. Good luck.

Lascala IIs, that is the ticket. Or Volti Rivals. Enjoy ! MrD.

HELOMECH ...here's the deal with that , its a trap to a degree , once you get the 30.1's , Harbeth comes out with the BETTER bigger, ones 40.1 , then 40.2's ....I want to buy something and be done with it , not worry that the upgraded model is so much better....but you're right 40.1 better for my room for sure...40.2! $15K! done :) BTW , most of the people I've talked to on Audiomart selling their 30.1's are upgrading to 40.1 or 40.2 ! 

I called Klipsch and they referred me to a place in Sacramento that may have their Heritage lines on floor....if not I'll definitely get to LA eventually to scope out...thanks! 

The M40.1s would be better suited to your room, but even those won't give you the bass dynamics you likely crave. Find a way to hear some Cornwalls -- maybe join a local audio club. It may even be worth a short flight to SoCal (where you could spend a whole weekend auditioning speakers). Upscale Audio stocks them.

http://www.stevehuffphoto.com/the-klipsch-cornwall-iii-speaker-review-by-steve-huff/

ok so demo’d the Harbeth’s and here are my thoughts 

Room was medium sized and treated well.

30.1 / C7s : Way too small for my space. Out of the running immediately .

SHL5+ - very nice , true , imaging was deep and my first reaction was this is a clean , non hyped even field of sound. I played about 15 tracks , varied styles ranging from hard rock /soft rock/ jazz .
Some sounded better than others ...initial impressions seem to lean that these Harbeth’s compliment softer music ...the heavier stuff sounded good but not quite as impactful as the spacious softer tracks....
The Highs : Were there and even . People wanting to hear that super crisp , shimmery high end will need EQ.
Mids - very even and accurate.
The Bottom was surprisingly good for a flat EQ/ no subs...for me in my space , not enough ...I’d need to supplement a sub.
The depth was quite extraordinary ...the spectrum was broad and sounded like nothing had artifacts. The cabinets are beautiful .
In conclusion , Me personally at this stage , I don’t think $7K is worth what I heard...however, if I happen to run across a new/used pair for quite a bit less... I might bite...good work Alan/ Harbeth , great speakers.

hope you had a chance to hear the C7s also.  more natural than the SHL5+ and bigger sound than the 30s.   A great speaker.  
FYI adding a good subwoofer (i recommend JL audio) makes the sound bigger as well.  

I’d love to audition some Klipsch ...looked at all their Northern CA. distributors and no one carries the high end stuff...must be someone that has them....any impressions of Cornwalls ? One guy recommended Herseys w/ subs but they seem small for my room...

A pair of Klipsch Lascala ( I own ), ( or Belle, if you can find a pair ), with a few modifications and updates, will certainly take care of every desire you want, and, you already have a subwoofer ( although I prefer a pair ). The Heresy and Cornwall are good choices, but not in the league of the Lascala ( I also own a pair of Heresy 11 fully modified in another room, and have owned Cornwalls ). Maybe a used pair of the Lascala 11 might come up for sale. Try and listen to a pair somewhere ( I am in central Fl. ) Lot of info on the Klipsch Forums. Enjoy ! Mr. D.

There's also a whole world of active studio monitors out there if you're not buying for the looks. A midfield monitor can play loud without breaking up. Take ATC, Neumann, Focal, JBL, PMC etc etc. I like them, but they are built to play flat so might not always be so exciting and are very revealing for bad recordings. But for good recordings....:-) Suppose you knows all about this. 

That’s the plan , yes never intended to buy new. I usually let someone else drive the Ferrari off the lot and I find new / used.

Yes on the loud , that’s my #1 question and my current issue w all of my previous speakers , they fall apart at loud levels . I’m going to see what else he has too ....thanks for tips on treatment , god I hate carpet ...my guy told me “don’t go crazy , start with a few panels in key places “ we are going to access room . 
Thanks gosta

Yes - do test the Harbeth’s loud to see if they can hold together or if the balance falls apart and dullness sets in.

Good fullsize speakers are often extremely overpriced. Buy used or as I suggested two good subs combined with monitors that doesn't play too much bass on their own (for integration purposes). Important they can play really loud without any stress, which most modern speakers can't. Lots of real furniture - thick carpets, curtains, bookshelves, leather sofas and other garbage. If possible use a room that is far from quadratic. Finalize with a room eq system like Antinode 2.0 or Lyngdorf RP-1 or Dirac. Especially for acoustic music or low listening (for loud rock listening - doesn't matter much....). Those eq systems works mostly great in the lower frequencies.
Easy :-)
Look forward to read your impression of the Harbeth's. Play them loud and see what happens. They are built to add to the music, which I think work great for some but not all music.

You're right on both accounts ....40.2 looks awesome , but $7500 chrisssssst.  

I have a recording studio that is completely treated.  I don't know other than curtains , I don't really want to hang bass traps / acoustic panels in my living room ....have to investigate aesthetically pleasing panels . 

FIX YOUR ROOM............

I have an appointment tomorrow to demo : 
Harbeth 30.1 
Harbeth SHL5+ 

I'll give my review after ! 

I worked  at "Wave Waikiki" off and on with various bands for years, and it was by far the best place to play, with amazing sound...they had early Mark Levinson amps for the bass bins (!). I listen to a lot of modern (and not so modern) jazz dudes, with astonishing drumming...Bill Stewart is a fave...Kenny Wollesen...and many (many) others. I've recently been enjoying some amazing drum tone (and chops) from Tom Rainey on a recent Nels Cline/Julian Lage album (Nels Cline 4). That's a crazy good album...

@wolf_garcia 
@tommypenngotti
For some kick drum therapy :-) may i suggest
Janis Ian "Guess you had to be there" from "Breaking Silence". An audiophile recording. Play at moderate level. Shows a simple cd is enough for very high quality if you have the technical skill and the recording company wishes to make a statement! Other fenomenal audiophile recordings on simple cd:
Terry Evans "Blues for thought" - loud
Aaron Neville "Warm your heart" - moderate.

Sorry to say, I don't play anything. However I would say the kick-drum, the bass (acoustic or electric or bass tuba (read Hans Theessink) are the single most important instruments. Together with the voice. The rest is just the icing on the cake :-) So why are these so often hidden in the recording, especially the kick-drum? Another thing, would you say that the Klipsch speakers are voiced in a way that highlights the kick-drum? Do they move the air? 

Wolf - awesome ...Cauldren...nice.....I remember there was a club in Honolulu called "The Wave" right??

Its so interesting how some people just dog Klipsch and others love them?! ....to each his own right? I have always been successful using my ears instead of reading manuals and specs ....its just difficult to find all these great speakers anywhere to audition ...so I appreciate all of you people chiming in. 

Very cool video about the Harbeth guy Alan on youtube....he’s thorough , love the work ethic ...no stones unturned...

I can't believe more of you "seasoned" audiophile aren't calling out the OPs very questionable room instead of randomly suggesting speakers.

Oz