Help me complete my stereo system (Harbeth, ClearAudio Concept).

I should add that I'm winding down my small CD collection, so I expect streaming to replace those.

Also, based only on reviews thus far, I think there might be some interesting amplification options from NAIM, Simmaudio and Yamaha.  Luxman is a bit pricey for the kit contemplated; I don't see the point of driving 3K speakers with 6K amplification.  Hegel has surfaced quite a bit in forums I've lurked into but I'm a bit skeptic of internal DACs for the long run.  

The p3 is a good choice for that size room! This guy likes them as much as I do!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mqFIaiPT_kY

Speakers, without a doubt are the most important choice, they will be the ’sound’ of your system. Everything else will be small refinements, heard or imagined.

You may love the sound of those speakers, however I advise you to keep on looking before you buy them.

Think long: you may move, you may want to try tube amps, you might want to try bi-amp.

Try to find more efficient speakers you also love. As primary speakers, I also would try for a larger woofer, I prefer no ports, if so, front ones only.

If you do buy small woofers, perhaps think about adding a pair of self powered subs now or later. A pair, front firing, located near the mains. Bass, fundamentals and the bass overtones do produce stereo imaging, a single sub dis-allows that. Bass players in jazz are often a significant part of the group’s success, and enjoyment.

Letting the self-powered sub take the low bass, sending only upper bass, mids, highs, makes it much easier for your amp, and, critically, the smaller woofers no longer need to try to make low bass, that's a big deal when using smaller woofers.

Efficient speakers works itself into the system, gives you many more options. Most importantly the more competitive world of lower powered amp(s): smaller physical size; weight, heat, placement options.

Lower cost amp(s) allows more for other parts within the budget of the initial system, i.e. more efficient speakers, less amp cost, gives more money for the speakers themselves, or more for the preamp.

I too listen to a lot of Jazz, stereo and mono. I recommend choosing a preamp with a ’loudness’ circuit, automatically/progressively engaged only at low volumes. Maintaining the bass player at low volumes, for me, retains involvement with the music, loss of the bass player becomes background music.

Recording techniques prior to Stereo were quite good, many great bass players. Not the location, but the distinction of individual players is refined by using several techniques: mono mode; mono cartridge; single speaker. Even in Mono, maintaining a more distinct awareness of the bass player at low volume retains involvement.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal-loudness_contour

Yes, if you buy less efficient speakers, you will need a V-8. Keep in mind, you need twice the power to produce a perceptible volume increase of +3db. Choosing 87 efficiency means you start out needing twice the power to produce the sound level of a 90 efficiency speaker. Or, choose a 90 db efficiency, you need only half the power to produce the same sound level.

A bit more, double the amp power again. It adds up.

Yogi,
I've watched that review so many times lately, I find it relaxing for some reason, he makes a great case for the P3s sonic signature and what is so attractive about them.    

Elliott,
Thank you for your comments/recommendations.  These are all valid points and many of which I've already considered.  Same as mentioned in the De Filios video, I'm not inclined to add a sub. If I feel the bass would not be well served, that would mean going to a bigger woofer, hence why I also have C7s under consideration.

The dilemma with P3esr seems to be that, while they seem like a good bargain, they can't be exploited to their full potential with budget tier amplification. I think the P3s would do a more than adequate job for my space and budget.  If I move and have a larger listening space a few years down the line, I would expect the P3 setup to become either a secondary system or make one of my sons very happy. My budget would move within the reaches of HL5 or 30.1 or the like.   

juleman,
I have owned many speakers including the Harbeth C7 and M30.1. I always return to the P3, I have owned four pairs. I use mine with all tube gear. My friend uses his with solid state gear.

Yes the P3 would play well into your room and of a quality that responds to quality amplification.  Regarding sensitivity I believe they are much like my Esoteric MGs which are ~87db sensitive and 6 ohm nominal impedance with a min slightly below 4 ohms. My room is 12' by 15' with 8.5' height and well treated with absorption. I drove the MG10s with a BEL 50wpc amp that was 2 ohm stable to very high levels. 

There are many fans of the P3, hopefully they will chime in as to what they use for amplification.

Juleman I would assume you are auditioning the Harbeth's with Accuphase at a dealer? If so does that dealer have more affordable amplification they can demo for you? You will get lots of different recs here some good some bad but nothing beats hearing something for yourself.

Mesch,

Thanks for the BEL recommendation, I will check into those for sure.  

J

The Accuphase /Harbeth dealer closed shop during Covid 19 to go online exclusively.  

So far, the feedback and real world experience from owners is that P3ESR will be fine for my room size.  This confirms what I suspected and so my heart and mind are now set 100% on the P3s.

My current setup is Creek EVO 50A with smallish 4ohms speakers with 4 inch woofers and while these are fast, accurate, lack a bit of bass  and have good midrange, I find that I prefer a more natural presentation which has led me to Harbeth with midrange focus where I think is where music happens.  I play drums (jazz, light rock) and appreciate good tone and realistic timbres, and find anything bright fatiguing (slight tendnitis tendency...) so Harbeths are it, and considering other factors P3ESRs fit the bill.

Now on to amplification...  

BEL, Brown Electronics Labs is no longer. Mr. Brown passed away in 2009. 

I see, sure looked the business that amp.

Yes, it is a great amplifier. Sorry, I was just providing info regarding power requirements, not trying to make a amp recommendation.

You might start a new thread requesting amp recommendations for the P3s. Provide budget, sonic preference, rooms size specifics therein. 

I drive my P3ESRs with a used set of analog Linn Klimax I ran into. After testing and comparing, I selected a Cambridge Audio Azure 851N as source. If the Linn hadn't crossed my path, I'd probably have auditioned the CA Azur power amp as well. That combo would set you back about 3k€, which would make sense given the P3's price. 

I understand that Harbeth general advice for amplification is that they're easy to drive, but you can't go wrong with a decent, beefy solid state amp. 

Yes ¨easy to drive¨ is what is advertised but, as you all note and as is supported by reviewers, Solide State with some headroom in the power department is the way to go (despite the occasional good experience with tube gear).  

On the radar at this point : Yamaha A-S 1200, Luxman (though price is a bit out of whack with the rest of the system, but I'm intrigued), and perhaps NAIM (though their offer is multiple and confusing, I like the minimal aesthetic and perhaps the brit fi factor).    

Research the Belles Aria amplifier (with onboard MM phono).

DeKay

@juleman -- which Luxman model are you looking at? IMO, their entry level integrated amp (505, 550) is not that great of a value for the money. The real Luxman magic happens at 507, 509, 590 level. Anything below that, you’re better off with Yamaha or Naim. I ran my P3esr’s with Naim Unitiqute for some time. Obviously, it lacked in power but the synergy was quite good. I’m sure the higher level Naim models like Super Nait will be a very good match. Good luck!

Another vote for Belles Aria integrtaed with MM phono.

I drove my C7s with a Belles Soloist 1 and it was great. Harbeths sometimes need some real current to get them to move some air...;-)

I have an Aria Signature Integrated today.

After some additional research this afternoon I dropped the Luxman 505 from the list, I can't see how this betters the Yamaha enough to justify the huge price difference (I suspect Lux are much more affordable in Japan).  The Yamaha is extremely well designed inside. It's a big component with a big 1970s vibe.
 
Did further research on NAIM's product line as well, and the Nait XS3 appears to fit the bill with a price in the right range with excellent phono and headphone stages to boot.  

Also added Belles Aria (it was on the list a while ago), recommendations fuse on the match with P3s, there is also a dealer in my neck of the woods.  

Some bad news though:  I can't seem to track down a new pair of the standard P3ESRs (except in black). Some standard C7s are still available at only a $200.00 dollar difference to the P3ESR XD, making them extremely enticing.  Decisions, decisions.  

Best way to solve this will be to audition some kit (I tracked down a Naim dealer with Harbeth product not too far away).

PS.  I suspect the PRAT element found in Naim gear could give the kick in the pants I felt the C7s needed when I auditioned with Accuphase Integrated.

PPS : You guys have been really helpful despite the P3 /Amp match topic having been beaten to death : - )

Still trying to track down a set of P3Esr.

Called a dealer today, he was out of P3s, including XDs. He said that supply is scarce and .... that he didn’t expect to sell many XD versions at these new inflated prices !

Alan Shaw: Bring back the classic P3ESR in other colors than Black please !!

Give this place a shot!
http://www.dejavu-audio.com/harbeth-speakers-p3esr.html

Thanks Yogiboy, I will.

I contacted deja vu. They will try to track down P3ESr standard version in other colors (they had black which is already available closer to home but those would be an eye sore in my main living room).  

You might try Gig Harbor Audio.  They are a Harbeth dealer near Seattle.  

I've found a MINT pair of the Special Editions in Rosewood.  

Sweet! I hope you enjoy yours as much as I have mine.

Great find. Of all the Harbeths I've owned I thought the Rosewood finish were the nicest looking. Enjoy them!

The rogue Sphinx v3 would drive those harbeths nicely. It has both a great mc/mm phono stage built in, as well as a very good headphone amp. Hybrid tube/class d. A herb Reichert favorite. $1500 bucks, but I can get one cheaper, but I cannot tell 😁
Here is Herb’s review:
https://www.stereophile.com/content/rogue-sphinx-v3-integrated-amplifier

Add a musical fidelity v90 dac $299, if you can still find one, and then a Grace Digital link internet radio/streamer with digital and analog out $159 on sale. Two great pieces. All the above for under $2k.

Acoustic sounds sells the harbeth p3esr, they are good to deal with. The cherry and the rosewood are in stock.

Deja Vu Audio has the full line of Harbeth and they sell ClearAudio turntables.  Where they depart from the advice given above is that they exclusively deal in tube amplifiers.  I have heard all of the Harbeth lineup there, and I like the P3's more than the 7's.  The P3's sound quite good with even lower powered tube gear, so I would not automatically scratch tube gear off the list.  Deja Vu has a Parasound Halo amp in the store to do demonstrations against their various tube amplifier offerings, and that is always an entertaining demonstration (typically, even a cheap tube amp will sound significantly better).  

I pulled the trigger on a pair of P3esr Special Editions in roeswood represented as Mint. The total cost including shipping is more than 60%  lower that the cost of the XD version currently available.

As much as I'm willing to spring extra dollars for gear where I feel the price justified, I think the future classic of the P3ESR will likely be the base model or the 40th, and those can be found (with some patience) for a decent price still.  

I've always been attracted to the Conrad Johnson CAV series of integrated amps.  

Love this type of minimalist-high-quality-fair-price product. Anyone with real world experience driving P3ESRs with any of the CAV C-Js is welcome to try to convince me to go in that direction. 

This amp speaker pairing business will take a bit of time to sort out, so the P3s will be mated to my Creek Evo 50A for the time being.  My goal is to get off the merry go round without hopping on ! Therefore, I'll be looking for an amp that gives justice to the P3s for many many years to come.  I get the feeling this will be in the $ 3,5K plus category.   

For tube amps, I recommend looking into integrated amps from Synthesis (Italian).  They make integrated amps with very good DACs and phono stages built into the amp.  I have heard the P3 with their Roma 96 integrated (25 wpc) and this is a very nice combination.  The larger, and more expensive, integrated amps, such as the A40 and A100 should be even better with the P3's.

If you contact Vu, at Deja Vu Audio, he can offer some advice on appropriate tube amps.  He sells Synthesis and Conrad Johnson.

The Harbeths sound great with tube gear. I use tube gear with my P3s. This Rogue Cronus Magnum integrated has all the features that you need. My friend uses Rogue tube gear with his P3s. BTW, you will need a separate phono preamp with the Conrad-Johnson!
http://rogueaudio.com/Products_Cronus_Magnum.htm

Thanks for all the recommendations, they are all going on the list for further consideration.  An all in one solution for the phono stage and headphones is very appealing.

Curious about Unison Research as well.  

Lots of options that need direct experience with, which Covid conditions prevents somewhat for now. Using the time to read up  on components.  

 

Was reading Darko's review of the P3ESR SE. He should have listened with his ears instead of his eyes and with another product than Heed Class D...  

i agree that for all strengths and well meaning reviews john darko is way too influenced by the way components are styled - and i believe it affects how he perceives the sound when he thinks something looks especially cool via his aesthetic sense

I have heard the Synthesis gear Larry recommends with Harbeth also at Deja Vu and it's an excellent combo. And definitely call Vu I will attest he gives great advice and won't try to sell you on anything that's not right for your system.

Was reading Darko's review of the P3ESR SE. He should have listened with his ears instead of his eyes and with another product than Heed Class D...

Heed doesn't have any class D amplifiers. The Heed Obelisk he used is AB and I agree with him that it is a warm sounding amp.

My mistake.  

The point about this review is that it fails to capture what the P3Esr are really about.  To me the P3s is a well designed speaker that does what it does with class leading attributes.  It's a set of speakers to which you can throw serious amplification at and it won't be outclassed.  This said they won't do Metallica or Daft Punk as well as other speakers out there, but in the right space with the right gear they can do wonders with a very wide range of music.  For my requirements, in my room, if they can do right by Miles, Herbie and Trane then bring on the pipe and slippers.  

I have my P3ESRs in a fairly small room (12 X 12 approximately), with a fairly large sub and you'd be surprised how well they can do with Daft Punk or Deadmau5.

With a sub I can imagine so.