Hana Umami Red or Lyra Kleos?

I can't comment on the Hana Umami Red, but the Lyra Kleos is an outstanding cartridge.  I had it mounted on a Well Tempered Reference tone arm and turntable and it was great.  I then moved it to my DIY Lenco with a TransFi Terminator air bearing linear arm, and it was even better.  Only upgrading to Sound Smith's top of the line Hyperion (2x more expensive) displaced the Kleos.

Who "informed" you the SS Voice isn't compatible?

All 3 choices will "work" on your arm.

SS carts have been  used on VPI's since their inception.

 

@skyscraper  : Your today unipivot VPI tonearm is the wrong tonearm for that cartridges quality level. It can work but it never will helps for any of those cartridges can shows at its best. Sooner or latter you need to let goes that terrible unipivot tonearm.

 

R.

Achipo, thanks for the recommend on your Lyra Kl;eos. It seems to get excellent reviews all around. Hopefully someone will be able to chime in who has also heard the Hana Umami Red. It’s a much newer cartridge, so probably not as many have had the opportunity to demo or own one. I’m curious in what ways the Soundsmith Hyperion was an improvement over the Kleos if you don’t mind sharing..

Tablejockey, "incompatible" might be too strong a word. If I understood this person correctly the weight of the the cartridge, and perhaps the compliance of the Soundsmith "The Voice" do not match up with the VPI JMW 10.5i" cartridge like their much less expensive ($1499) Zephyr HOMI cartridge does. The Zephyr was designed specifically for VPI’s tonearms in consultation with VPI’s.Harry Weisfeld,.

The Kleos and Umami Red both have specs that match the JMW 10.5i well. .At the much higher price point than the Zephyr HOMI. I’m guessing they would perform better, although my advisor still recommends the Zephyr as well as the Kleos or Umami. I’ve emailed Soundsmith to get their input on the cartridge/tonearm matching issue,and the performance quality of the Zephyr HOMI versus the Soundsmith "The Voice" HOMI.

Mike

I have heard both ( Lyra and Hana ) at some length but not on same table. Lyra on a Unipivot VPI , Hana on an AMG. A major toss up….. both frankly are excellent and both will reward..your…eventual…arm upgrade to pivot…..

Lets put it this way, as a long term Lyra owner, if i couldn’t find a Lyra, the Umami would be on my short list of cartridges…

Best

Jim

I have heard both cartridges, not on the same arm. The Hana is a little warmer sounding to my ears than the Kleos. For what it's worth, I went with the Kleos.

Thanks Jim. availability might end up being a factor too with the current supply chain issues. I’m probably going to have to take a trip up to Washington DC if I can find a dealer up that way who can demo them both on the same table. I haven’t located a Lyra dealer any closer yet though, other than the mail order chains.

I’m curious about what Soundsmth might say too about the tonearm matching issue with their "The Voice" .HOMI cartridge. The dealer I spoke with thought it was a significant enough issue to warrant going with the lower Soundsmith Zephyr model.

Daveyf, thanks for your description, having heard both. If you don’t mind my asking, why did you decide to go with the Kleos over the Umami?

Raul, maybe some day I can upgrade the tonearm too, but with my Euro stock holdings in my IRA tanking lately, that may be later rather than sooner. 

Mike

I'm telegraphing this in from the slums, but I recently replaced my worn-out Lyra Delos with a Hana ML, and I have to say I'm liking my Hana a heck of a lot. The Hana was a bit tizzy during the first week, but it has mellowed out and is now warm, happy and beautiful-sounding., Now broken in, tracking is now at least equal to the always fine-tracking Lyra. .Orchestral string tone is unmatched. Vocalists and instruments are as "there" as I've ever experienced on my system. Dynamics and slam are about equal. Alphason Arm.

Thanks edcyn. The Hana line of cartridges does get a lot of praise. Do you find your Hana ML a bit warmer than the Lyra Delos in your system or are they about the same in that regard?

Mike

@retipper might weigh in on The Voice / VPI arm compatibility issues, if any… He is the inventor after all and a fine man.

???

Jim

Jim, that would be helpful. I haven’t heard back from Soundsmith yet, but I only emailed them Friday and Saturday.

Mike

@skyscraper 

The Hana is indeed warmer than the Lyra was, but the difference is far from night and day. Both cartridges were/are quite balanced in my admittedly forgiving system -- Moon phono stage, Primaluna integrated, NOLA Boxer speakers.

@skyscraper I went with the Kleos because i wanted a more resolving cartridge and felt the Hana was a little veiled in comparison. This could have been due to set up, or upstream/downstream gear, as I did not hear the two cartridges with the same arm/table etc., I used to own a Benz Ruby 2, which was a great cartridge, but again a little warm balanced. At the time, Benz was no longer available as an option to me, otherwise I would have gone into a Benz LPS MR. ( which is a superb cartridge), so the choice was for the Kleos. ( which is also a lot more resolving than the Benz). The Kleos requires a very very precise set-up and loading to get it best; when I hear people naysay the Kleos ( or newer Lyra’s in general), I know they have listened to one that was not set up with enough precision. The Hana most likely is FAR more forgiving in this respect.

 

You do realize that these are fungible items, that wear out, like windshield wipers?

And that complex tip shapes require expert setup?

skyscraper-

Peter Ledermann himself  demoed his carts on VPI's for years.

SS cart's do have compliance options.

All your choices are solid. More of "Goldilocks" choice and how it interacts with your phono stage.

VP arms aren't the last thing in technology compared to others, but It can be setup for a convincing performance. I use an old  VPI Classic.

@tablejockey  : That could means only that's what he like but not tell us if is the " adequated "  tonearm option. 

 

Good for you that like unipivots that again are the worst tonearm kind of design for any cartridge can shows at its best that must be the target in any cartridge/tonearm combination. 

 

R.

Edcyn. thanks for answering my question to you. On this subject I was reading a review of the Hana Umami Red last night that addressed the warmth question.. The reviewer was thinking at first when doing a demo, that the Umami Red was warm like you describe your Hana ML. But then when trying it out with other equipment he found it not to be. He finally decided in his estimation the Hana Umami was neutral and only reflected the degree of warmth of the other components.

Interesting you say the difference in your Hana and the Lyra wasn’t night and day. The sense I’ve been getting so far from researching online is that is the case between the two carts under discussion overall.

Davyf, thanks for your response to my question to you as well. One of the reasons I chose the Magico A3’s is that they are revealing. I’d hate to loose any of that quality with the Umami, but on the other maybe they could stand a little warmth in the mix, if the Umami Red’s are indeed warm. I really have to find a way to listen to both, preferably in the same system.

It’s interesting you say the Kleos needs a precise set up. A couple of reviewers said the same thing. I’m going to have a pro do mine whatever choice is made, as I’m strictly the amateur hour in setting up a turntable.

Fstein, answer to your question is ’yes". And nice use of the word "fungible"..

Tablejockey, my only question on the Soundsmith is whether that particular cartridge, the Soundsmith "The Voice" fits that mold with the Classic 2’s JMW 10.5i’. Interesting you mention Lederman demoed his cartridges with VPI’s. I wonder which ones? Somebody I read last night mentioned he heard Mr. Weisfeld demo his turntables at a show with a Lyra cartridge

Like mentioned earlier the Zephyr was designed with VPI turntables in mind, but maybe others in their line their might work. I’ll let you know what Soundsmith says if and when I hear back from them. Thanks

Raul, appreciate your input. Would you have any preference between the
Lyra Kleos or the Hana Umami Red?

Mike

skyscraper,

Yes, about 10 years ago, I had the pleasure of just Peter and myself in his room at a show. He demoed several carts including the Voice on a VPI HRX with his bookshelves. I was impressed with what was heard on his little bookshelves

Sounding like a broken record-I’ve shared this particular part of my experience with Mr Soundsmith in other threads.

In the end, it’s what your ears feel comfortable with along with your wallet. There is something about ANY cartridge on a particular arm that you could pick apart.

Since we share the same table, thought I would give my $.0002 cents worth(adjusted for inflation)

FWIW-The Audio Technica ART9 is a cart in the $1K price point that will easily compete with carts 2X the price. I have used both SS and AT on my VPI Classic.

Mike, what Raul is trying to tell you is that no cartridge is going to perform at it's best in a unipivot arm. The results are less predictable and will always be substandard. In general more compliant cartridges will perform better in unipivot arms but the limiting factor is the mass of the arm.

You would do yourself a service by switching to VPI's gimbal arm. It is not perfect but it is far better than any unipivot. 

As an aside, any Lyra cartridge is superior to any Hana cartridge. Putting these two cartridges in the same sentence is a huge insult to Lyra. Hana cartidges have become popular because they are cheap. That is what they are, cheap cartridges. There are many high output cartridges for even less money that significantly outperform any Hana cartridge. If you want a less expensive MC cartridge get an Audio Technica. 

@skyscraper The Sound Smith Hyperion is just more fleshed out than the Kleos—more “real”.  It has a better/stronger bass foundation, and everything else just seems to build on that foundation.

@mijostyn 

 

Not sure what your beef is about Hana cartridges, other than the fact that you don't  like them. I've said this before. I had a Soundsmith Boheme and the competing Hana cartridge I now have sounds WAY better than that Soundsmith. There. I said it...

Tablejockey, that must have been fun to been able to talk with Peter Lederman. I’m hoping for even an email reply from him about "The Voice" cartridge. You’re absolutely correct about your ears and wallet being the best guide.

I sometimes wish I lived closer to a big city, so I could find a shop that had high end equipment to audition, like I used to in my twenties living near New York City.. Instead I enjoy hearing from each of you who have that luxury, and/or are knowledgeable about the nuts and bolts of audio, specs especially of late.

mijostyn,, are you saying the the Lyra Kleos at $3,650 is a better performing cartridge in your estimation than the Hana Unami Red at $3,999. Before I cross the Hana Unami Red off my short list, I’d like to confirm you aren’t only making the comparison with the relatively "cheaper" next model down the Hana line, the Hana ML at $1200, If that’s the case I appreciate you providing a direct answer to my question about the Kleos versus the Umami Red .

Sounds too like I’ll have to add a better tonearm to my wish list from what you and Raul are saying. Just when I thought this cartridge might be my final upgrade. I feel like Al Pacino in the last Godfather movie when he was trying to finally "get out" but kept getting drawn back in.

Achipo, unfortunately the Soundsmith Hyperion comes in at double the upper end of my price range. Sounds like a winner otherwise.

Mike

Mr_m, glad you were able to speak your mind.

So far I haven’t heard anybody put the knock on the Lyra Kleos, other than its demanding of a precise set up. I will have a VPI dealer set it up though, who sounds proficient in doing so. It’s less expensive than the Hana Umami Red enough I could get it with the VPI dual pivot mod for the same money as the Umami.

If Soundsmith doesn’t come up with a convincing reply explaining that "The Voice" works well with the VPI JMW 10.5i, I’d say the Lyra Kleos is the front runner at this juncture. I’m still not sure what it’s availability might be though. Might end up on a waiting list.

Mike

I second the VPI tonearm horrible characteristics.

Don’t waste your time and money with VPI unipivot, not worth the fishing line that uses for anti skating.

I love the Umami, specially at its price.

 

Astolfor, what is it you like about the Umami?. Have you ever had a chance to listen to a Kleos to compare? That information would be helpful. Debating the unipivot is an issue for another time, since getting both a new cartridge and a new tonearm is out of the question budget-wise .

Mike

I have a Sound-Smith Paua II mounted on a VPI JMW Memorial uni-pivot arm ( Prime Signature) and love it. The Paua is in your price range. Don't know why no one has mentioned it. And what's so bad about the uni-pivot arm? It may appear "unstable" but it tracks flawlessly.

@mr_m , when you use qualifiers such as "way" you automatically disqualify your opinion. No audiophile cartridge is "way" better than another unless one is defective. 

@skyscraper, that is what I said. The Kleos is a better performer than the Umami. It tracks better and has less distortion. Much less distortion. Johnathan Carr may just be the best cartridge designer currently alive. In my eyes...excuse me, to my ears there is no better cartridge than a Lyra. Only My Sonic and Ortofon come close. I think if you ask @rauliruegas he will back up that opinion. Who knows, maybe not! However, his opinion is the only one I would have confidence in when it comes to cartridges, tonearms and phono stages. 

I prefer the Hana Umami slightly warmer tone its more foriving on most crappy recordings but excellent on the best of the best recording too. Depends from systems to system but the hana is more musical overal to my ears.

Great subject @skyscraper .  I find it hard to get conclusions on the sonic signature of carts, making shopping all the more difficult. 

I thought this cartridge might be my final upgrade"

syscraper,

You're in the walltet opening zone. VPI Classic is a price point table. Putting a cart above $1-21K is questionable,IMO. Weakness of the arm design has been stated. Also, if you don't have the SDS or Phoenix RR speed control(better) you may not be aware what you're missing.

Upgrading the arm on the Classic with the gimbal or an aftermarket is subject for a different thread. Subjective and personal choice.

Using the same table and familiar with what it can do, I believe the carts your looking at may be underserved both by the standard arm and using the Luxman's internal phono stage?

Does it have the performance of a standalone $3K+ unit? That's what I would be considering for them. Reason I suggested the AT ART9. It has fans who own pricier carts. For that reason, I wouldn't consider higher than a Lyra Delos.

VPI long haulers seem to have upper level models using such carts. Just my opinion. If I were to go up the VPI food chain, I'd have theHW40 DD, put a REALLY nice aftermarket arm for a 2nd choice(if that's possible)

Agree with tablejockey.

A Hana ML would be a good match for the listed system.  A Lyra Delos would be more clinical tonally, with more apparent detail and dynamics.  The Delos is a little more "hi fi" sounding, to my ears.

 

The Kleos and Unami Red are better (similar differences) but 2 or 3 times the cost.  

For you TT, not worth it IMO.

Good luck!

bears repeating VPI pivot upgrade + Delos or similar will outperform a $4k cartridge on your current arm. Especially given the integral phono stage you have,

Additionly, if i had a jones to spend $4k in your system it would be: VPI pivot mod, Delos, HRS turntable base ( specific to your VPI TT mass )

just my two cents….

@tablejockey has sage wisdom imo

 

Gsai, the Soundsmith Paua is one of the first cartridges I looked into for the reasons you mention. Unfortunately its specs indicate it is not compatible with the built in phono stage on my Luxman 507uX MkII integrated amp. I even sent an email to Soundsmith a week or so ago to verify that just in case, but have yet to hear back from them.

Mijostyn, thanks for the follow up reply. I did read some posts by Mr. Carr in a related thread on a different forum that were quite interesting. I believe Raul did mention the Hana Umami Red as a possible choice in my more general thread on this topic last week. I did ask him for his thoughts on Lyra vs the Umami above, but haven’t head back here yet. That might be interesting.

Your comments on the Lyra Kleos attributes are in keeping with reviews i’ve been reading recently on the Kleos. .I’ll have to call and check on its’ availability and price soon as I finish responding to folks replies here. Thanks again

Phantom_av, you’ve spelled out some of the descriptions I’ve I’ve been running across on reviews of the Umami, musicality and warmth. I’ve never quite understood what constitutes warmth, other than in general analog might be warmer that digital. It’s something I need to learn more about because I normally am drawn to clarity and detailed presentation, like my Magico A3’s are known for.

Jbhiller- thank you

Tablejockey- "you’re absolutely right about being in the "wallet opening zone". That’s funny.. Then you go ahead and pour salt into that wound by suggesting I get a speed control, on top of the tonearm, and phono stage upgrades everyone’s suggesting in addition to an already expensive cartridge I’m chasing after. So cruel. I am not quite up there with the high rollers, And just when I thought I’d hit the big time with the VPI Classic 2 and Magico A3’s.

You’re likely correct $3-4000 might be a bit much to spend on a cartridge for a VPI Classic 2, but it does leave room for the tonearm upgrade some of the well heeled rascals here are convincing me should be in my future along with filing for bankruptcy.

Bobbydd, please don’t be agreeing with the nefarious tablejockey. A Hana ML might be a better match for my system, as so is my current Ortofon 2M Black. But I’m trying to do what it takes to make a significant enough cartridge upgrade to push through to a significant performance improvement.

I asked about this suitability issue on my previous thread and Raul for one didn’t think that $3-000 or more for a cartridge was overkill for my VPI Classic 2, but a bottom figure to achieve this type of improvement. He did bust me on the unipivot tonearm the Classic 2 has though, so future improvement could be needed in that department.

Tomic601, I am planning on the dual pivot mod as a stopgap. That sounds like a good suggestion. I’ll have to look up what a HRS turntable base is.

Thanks again all for your input,

Mike

Would using a Soundsmith Counter Intuitive device put on the counter weight of a VPI Unipivot help? I know this device is used mainly to correct azmuth issues, but wonder if it would improve the stability of the unipivot.

That’s a good question mr-m. I’ll ask Soundsmith when I next contact them. I was reading up on the Counteri Intuitove which I stumbled upon why researching cartridge last week. Had never heard of it before. I wondered if it was worth having for it’s designed purpose, but maybe more so if it would positively affect unipivot stability as well.

Mike

skyscraper-

I REALLY enjoy my VPI Classic. Wouldn't have kept it if I felt I wasn't hearing at least a good chunk of what I hear in a super table.

Setup is paramount.

That said, my thinking is maximize my cart choices in the $1-2k price point(just over a 1/3 of the table. Phonostage that will handle Lyra Kleos level when the next upgrade  comes.

VPI Classic looks like a traditional table, which I like.

I can hear it's speed inconsistency with the acid test-sustained organ(Marcel Dupree and E Power Biggs fan) along with R&R guitar power chords(I like to play along on my guitar) keeping a fresh belt on helps. Once it starts to wear  and becomes smooth, it gets noticeable. This of course is just my experience. 

Enjoy yours, I certainly  do! 

mr_m-

I don't find the SS CI  helping stability. I don't find the VPI unipivot a big fuss. I put it on an LP, it does its thing. It may appear shaky a second or two in the lead in grooves, but appears steady once the music starts. Definitely makes setup easier. 

 

FWIW, I had a Lyra Delos mounted on a JMW 10.5i on my VPI Aries 3. I really like the uni-pivot arm and it was rock solid. I didn’t run any anti-skate and the delos tracked great and sounded excellent to me. I am using very nice lateral rack and have HRS E1 isolation bases under everything. I am on a concrete slab so the rack is spiked directly to the concrete.

I did have the aries table on a lesser rack on a wooden floor and the uni-pivot arm danced around a bit but settled in. A bit off topic, I wonder if those who don't like uni-pivot arms tend to have systems not on concrete? 

I would buy another Lyra in a heartbeat.

Tablejockey, I like my traditional looking Classic 2 as well. I was real excited to get it after my old B&O Beogram 4002 finally was beyond repair after some forty years of constant use. I’d been wanting to upgrade to one for years.

I’m probably going to get the Lyra Kleos for it after the seller confirms it will work with my tonearm and integrated amp’s phono stage. I’m not anticipating any problems on that score, other than getting the dealer to answer the phone.

There are two models of the Lyra Kleos out there, the Kleos SL and the standard version. I’m fairly sure the regular Kleos is the one needed to complement my Luxman integrated amp’s phono stage, but need to get that confirmed before purchase. Appreciate your input on the Soundsmith Counter-Intuitive device. Take care.

Pilrem, that’s encouraging that your Lyra worked with our tonearm. Thanks. My turntable’s on a floating marble slab which seems to do the trick like your concrete floor in providing a stable base. Good to hear you’d buy another Lyra.

Mike

I have my Kleos mounted on a Well Tempered Black arm, this combo works very well. I think the SL version is best suited to someone who is able to use a SUT upstream of a ss phono stage…and nowhere near a tube phono stage. Otherwise, the standard version is the way to go, as it has a healthy voltage output.

skyscaper-

you haven't mentioned what cart you're upgrading from?

Lyra Kleos- you're in for a treat. Enjoy. 

Tablejockey, Thanks. I’m upgrading from an Ortofon 2M Black (moving magnet) cartridge. I spoke with the Lyros dealer today and should finalize the transaction tomorrow. I’ve someone lined up to do the turntable set up already too, so I’m excited and ready to go. Might have to wait for a couple to three weeks for it to arrive from Japan to the dealer, then ship here.

Interesting too the dealer who does turntable set ups on a regular basis, said the Lyros Kleo is manufactured and functions in such a way as it should not need a VPI dual pivot mod to work properly with a unipivot arm. They said they would be happy to sell one to me, but thought it was an unnecessary expense to incur.

Daveyf, the dealer concurred with you, the standard version is the way to go. It’s a few hundred dollars less than the Kleo SL too.

I’ll have to research alternatives to unipivot arms next for future reference. I’ll look up your Black Widow to see what that’s about since you mention you have one, not to mention it has such a cool name. Speaking of cool looks too, I was hoping the Hana Umami Red would have turned out to be first choice since it’ had the added benefit of matching my red couch and arm chair. Stupid stuff like that appeals to me.

Sadly, Soundsmith has not gotten back to me in a timely fashion. You snooze, you lose, as the saying goes, so they missed an opportunity and the Lyra Kleos it is. Can’t wait to hear it.

Mike

@skyacraper The arm I use is based on a liquid bearing. Designed back in the day by William Firebaugh, it is a unique design that does away with all bearing noise. The arm is also very lightweight, as such it works well on the Linn LP12 platform.

Daveyf, that sounds like an interesting concept for a bearing to be liquid.

Dear @skyscraper : " the dealer who does turntable set ups on a regular basis, said the Lyros Kleo is manufactured and functions in such a way as it should not need a VPI dual pivot mod to work properly with a unipivot arm..""

 

Coming from a dealer that statement is nothing less than a stupidity.

 

R.

Raul, in lieu of getting a gimbal type tonearm, which I really can’t afford at the moment on top of the price of the Lyra Kleos, would you advise I go ahead then and order VPI’s dual pivot mod as a stop gap measure until I can afford one? Might be a while before that happens. Appreciate your advice.

Anybody else have a thought on this?

Mike

Can you afford this one? if yes then buy it:

 

 

R

Raul, my question to you was, do you think the VPI dual pivot at $170.dollars would be a worthwhile stopgap measure until I can in the future purchase a gimbal type tonearm. The only other responsible choice for me is to use the Lyra Kleos on my current VPI JMW 10.5i tonearm as is, until such a time as I can research and purchase a better tonearm. If you feel the Lyra’s performance would be so much poorer in the interim until a new tonearm could be purchased, I’ll consider going ahead and squeezing out the additional monies to get the VPI dual pivot mod.

I need to be fiscally responsible. So getting a new tonearm may only happen some time from now due to other expenses I’m needing to deal with outside of audio upgrades, $170 for the dual pivot mod.is not that much more, so i could probably pull that off without ending up in debtors’ prison.

Mike

@skyscraper

If you were going to spend $4k on a cartridge and then $4k on another arm down the road - you would be better off buying a new turntable/arm package. None of the VPI arms are that great, and a change requires new armboard etc.

My recommendation would be to buy the dual pivot option and new cartridge.

Down the road reevaluate arm upgrade vs new TT/arm.

Something like Feickert/Kuzma 4Point9 combo down the line would far exceed the VPI combos at a reasonable price.

I would argue that an upgrade to Fieckert/Kuzma with a $1k cartridge ( example Audio Technica ART9 ) would give you a better overall result than buy-in a $4k cartridge now.

 

 

 

Dover, appreciate your advice. Another factor is installing the dual pivot changes settings like the azimuth etc. So since I’m going to have the tone arm set up professionally done, I’d need to get the dual pivot mod in place prior to having my newly purchased Lyra Kleos installed. That’s why I’ve go to make a decision on getting the mod now. as it can’t simply be installed as an add-on. I’ll have a little leeway as it will take some time for a Lyra to get here from Japan.

Not to appear stupid, but it can’t be helped, What part of a tonearm assembly. constitutes the "armband" you mentioned? That piece of info will begin my education on tonearms. Thanks,

Mike

 

Dover, I found a VPI youtube video that shows one of their gimbal tonearms can easily be swapped out with their unipvot tonearm. You simply unscrew the point to get it out of the way. Then their gimbal tonearm fits right into the same hole the unipivot point was in. I’ll need to find out if tonearms other than VPI’s would fit in that hole.

For any other interested rookies, the video is below.:

Mike