Achipo, thanks for the recommend on your Lyra Kl;eos. It seems to get excellent reviews all around. Hopefully someone will be able to chime in who has also heard the Hana Umami Red. It’s a much newer cartridge, so probably not as many have had the opportunity to demo or own one. I’m curious in what ways the Soundsmith Hyperion was an improvement over the Kleos if you don’t mind sharing..
Tablejockey, "incompatible" might be too strong a word. If I understood this person correctly the weight of the the cartridge, and perhaps the compliance of the Soundsmith "The Voice" do not match up with the VPI JMW 10.5i" cartridge like their much less expensive ($1499) Zephyr HOMI cartridge does. The Zephyr was designed specifically for VPI’s tonearms in consultation with VPI’s.Harry Weisfeld,.
The Kleos and Umami Red both have specs that match the JMW 10.5i well. .At the much higher price point than the Zephyr HOMI. I’m guessing they would perform better, although my advisor still recommends the Zephyr as well as the Kleos or Umami. I’ve emailed Soundsmith to get their input on the cartridge/tonearm matching issue,and the performance quality of the Zephyr HOMI versus the Soundsmith "The Voice" HOMI.
Mike
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Thanks edcyn. The Hana line of cartridges does get a lot of praise. Do you find your Hana ML a bit warmer than the Lyra Delos in your system or are they about the same in that regard?
Mike
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Thanks Jim. availability might end up being a factor too with the current supply chain issues. I’m probably going to have to take a trip up to Washington DC if I can find a dealer up that way who can demo them both on the same table. I haven’t located a Lyra dealer any closer yet though, other than the mail order chains.
I’m curious about what Soundsmth might say too about the tonearm matching issue with their "The Voice" .HOMI cartridge. The dealer I spoke with thought it was a significant enough issue to warrant going with the lower Soundsmith Zephyr model.
Daveyf, thanks for your description, having heard both. If you don’t mind my asking, why did you decide to go with the Kleos over the Umami?
Raul, maybe some day I can upgrade the tonearm too, but with my Euro stock holdings in my IRA tanking lately, that may be later rather than sooner.
Mike
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Jim, that would be helpful. I haven’t heard back from Soundsmith yet, but I only emailed them Friday and Saturday.
Mike
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Edcyn. thanks for answering my question to you. On this subject I was reading a review of the Hana Umami Red last night that addressed the warmth question.. The reviewer was thinking at first when doing a demo, that the Umami Red was warm like you describe your Hana ML. But then when trying it out with other equipment he found it not to be. He finally decided in his estimation the Hana Umami was neutral and only reflected the degree of warmth of the other components.
Interesting you say the difference in your Hana and the Lyra wasn’t night and day. The sense I’ve been getting so far from researching online is that is the case between the two carts under discussion overall.
Davyf, thanks for your response to my question to you as well. One of the reasons I chose the Magico A3’s is that they are revealing. I’d hate to loose any of that quality with the Umami, but on the other maybe they could stand a little warmth in the mix, if the Umami Red’s are indeed warm. I really have to find a way to listen to both, preferably in the same system.
It’s interesting you say the Kleos needs a precise set up. A couple of reviewers said the same thing. I’m going to have a pro do mine whatever choice is made, as I’m strictly the amateur hour in setting up a turntable.
Fstein, answer to your question is ’yes". And nice use of the word "fungible"..
Tablejockey, my only question on the Soundsmith is whether that particular cartridge, the Soundsmith "The Voice" fits that mold with the Classic 2’s JMW 10.5i’. Interesting you mention Lederman demoed his cartridges with VPI’s. I wonder which ones? Somebody I read last night mentioned he heard Mr. Weisfeld demo his turntables at a show with a Lyra cartridge
Like mentioned earlier the Zephyr was designed with VPI turntables in mind, but maybe others in their line their might work. I’ll let you know what Soundsmith says if and when I hear back from them. Thanks
Raul, appreciate your input. Would you have any preference between the
Lyra Kleos or the Hana Umami Red?
Mike
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Tablejockey, that must have been fun to been able to talk with Peter Lederman. I’m hoping for even an email reply from him about "The Voice" cartridge. You’re absolutely correct about your ears and wallet being the best guide.
I sometimes wish I lived closer to a big city, so I could find a shop that had high end equipment to audition, like I used to in my twenties living near New York City.. Instead I enjoy hearing from each of you who have that luxury, and/or are knowledgeable about the nuts and bolts of audio, specs especially of late.
mijostyn,, are you saying the the Lyra Kleos at $3,650 is a better performing cartridge in your estimation than the Hana Unami Red at $3,999. Before I cross the Hana Unami Red off my short list, I’d like to confirm you aren’t only making the comparison with the relatively "cheaper" next model down the Hana line, the Hana ML at $1200, If that’s the case I appreciate you providing a direct answer to my question about the Kleos versus the Umami Red .
Sounds too like I’ll have to add a better tonearm to my wish list from what you and Raul are saying. Just when I thought this cartridge might be my final upgrade. I feel like Al Pacino in the last Godfather movie when he was trying to finally "get out" but kept getting drawn back in.
Achipo, unfortunately the Soundsmith Hyperion comes in at double the upper end of my price range. Sounds like a winner otherwise.
Mike
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Mr_m, glad you were able to speak your mind.
So far I haven’t heard anybody put the knock on the Lyra Kleos, other than its demanding of a precise set up. I will have a VPI dealer set it up though, who sounds proficient in doing so. It’s less expensive than the Hana Umami Red enough I could get it with the VPI dual pivot mod for the same money as the Umami.
If Soundsmith doesn’t come up with a convincing reply explaining that "The Voice" works well with the VPI JMW 10.5i, I’d say the Lyra Kleos is the front runner at this juncture. I’m still not sure what it’s availability might be though. Might end up on a waiting list.
Mike
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Astolfor, what is it you like about the Umami?. Have you ever had a chance to listen to a Kleos to compare? That information would be helpful. Debating the unipivot is an issue for another time, since getting both a new cartridge and a new tonearm is out of the question budget-wise .
Mike
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Gsai, the Soundsmith Paua is one of the first cartridges I looked into for the reasons you mention. Unfortunately its specs indicate it is not compatible with the built in phono stage on my Luxman 507uX MkII integrated amp. I even sent an email to Soundsmith a week or so ago to verify that just in case, but have yet to hear back from them.
Mijostyn, thanks for the follow up reply. I did read some posts by Mr. Carr in a related thread on a different forum that were quite interesting. I believe Raul did mention the Hana Umami Red as a possible choice in my more general thread on this topic last week. I did ask him for his thoughts on Lyra vs the Umami above, but haven’t head back here yet. That might be interesting.
Your comments on the Lyra Kleos attributes are in keeping with reviews i’ve been reading recently on the Kleos. .I’ll have to call and check on its’ availability and price soon as I finish responding to folks replies here. Thanks again
Phantom_av, you’ve spelled out some of the descriptions I’ve I’ve been running across on reviews of the Umami, musicality and warmth. I’ve never quite understood what constitutes warmth, other than in general analog might be warmer that digital. It’s something I need to learn more about because I normally am drawn to clarity and detailed presentation, like my Magico A3’s are known for.
Jbhiller- thank you
Tablejockey- "you’re absolutely right about being in the "wallet opening zone". That’s funny.. Then you go ahead and pour salt into that wound by suggesting I get a speed control, on top of the tonearm, and phono stage upgrades everyone’s suggesting in addition to an already expensive cartridge I’m chasing after. So cruel. I am not quite up there with the high rollers, And just when I thought I’d hit the big time with the VPI Classic 2 and Magico A3’s.
You’re likely correct $3-4000 might be a bit much to spend on a cartridge for a VPI Classic 2, but it does leave room for the tonearm upgrade some of the well heeled rascals here are convincing me should be in my future along with filing for bankruptcy.
Bobbydd, please don’t be agreeing with the nefarious tablejockey. A Hana ML might be a better match for my system, as so is my current Ortofon 2M Black. But I’m trying to do what it takes to make a significant enough cartridge upgrade to push through to a significant performance improvement.
I asked about this suitability issue on my previous thread and Raul for one didn’t think that $3-000 or more for a cartridge was overkill for my VPI Classic 2, but a bottom figure to achieve this type of improvement. He did bust me on the unipivot tonearm the Classic 2 has though, so future improvement could be needed in that department.
Tomic601, I am planning on the dual pivot mod as a stopgap. That sounds like a good suggestion. I’ll have to look up what a HRS turntable base is.
Thanks again all for your input,
Mike
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That’s a good question mr-m. I’ll ask Soundsmith when I next contact them. I was reading up on the Counteri Intuitove which I stumbled upon why researching cartridge last week. Had never heard of it before. I wondered if it was worth having for it’s designed purpose, but maybe more so if it would positively affect unipivot stability as well.
Mike
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Tablejockey, I like my traditional looking Classic 2 as well. I was real excited to get it after my old B&O Beogram 4002 finally was beyond repair after some forty years of constant use. I’d been wanting to upgrade to one for years.
I’m probably going to get the Lyra Kleos for it after the seller confirms it will work with my tonearm and integrated amp’s phono stage. I’m not anticipating any problems on that score, other than getting the dealer to answer the phone.
There are two models of the Lyra Kleos out there, the Kleos SL and the standard version. I’m fairly sure the regular Kleos is the one needed to complement my Luxman integrated amp’s phono stage, but need to get that confirmed before purchase. Appreciate your input on the Soundsmith Counter-Intuitive device. Take care.
Pilrem, that’s encouraging that your Lyra worked with our tonearm. Thanks. My turntable’s on a floating marble slab which seems to do the trick like your concrete floor in providing a stable base. Good to hear you’d buy another Lyra.
Mike
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Tablejockey, Thanks. I’m upgrading from an Ortofon 2M Black (moving magnet) cartridge. I spoke with the Lyros dealer today and should finalize the transaction tomorrow. I’ve someone lined up to do the turntable set up already too, so I’m excited and ready to go. Might have to wait for a couple to three weeks for it to arrive from Japan to the dealer, then ship here.
Interesting too the dealer who does turntable set ups on a regular basis, said the Lyros Kleo is manufactured and functions in such a way as it should not need a VPI dual pivot mod to work properly with a unipivot arm. They said they would be happy to sell one to me, but thought it was an unnecessary expense to incur.
Daveyf, the dealer concurred with you, the standard version is the way to go. It’s a few hundred dollars less than the Kleo SL too.
I’ll have to research alternatives to unipivot arms next for future reference. I’ll look up your Black Widow to see what that’s about since you mention you have one, not to mention it has such a cool name. Speaking of cool looks too, I was hoping the Hana Umami Red would have turned out to be first choice since it’ had the added benefit of matching my red couch and arm chair. Stupid stuff like that appeals to me.
Sadly, Soundsmith has not gotten back to me in a timely fashion. You snooze, you lose, as the saying goes, so they missed an opportunity and the Lyra Kleos it is. Can’t wait to hear it.
Mike
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Daveyf, that sounds like an interesting concept for a bearing to be liquid.
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Raul, in lieu of getting a gimbal type tonearm, which I really can’t afford at the moment on top of the price of the Lyra Kleos, would you advise I go ahead then and order VPI’s dual pivot mod as a stop gap measure until I can afford one? Might be a while before that happens. Appreciate your advice.
Anybody else have a thought on this?
Mike
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Raul, my question to you was, do you think the VPI dual pivot at $170.dollars would be a worthwhile stopgap measure until I can in the future purchase a gimbal type tonearm. The only other responsible choice for me is to use the Lyra Kleos on my current VPI JMW 10.5i tonearm as is, until such a time as I can research and purchase a better tonearm. If you feel the Lyra’s performance would be so much poorer in the interim until a new tonearm could be purchased, I’ll consider going ahead and squeezing out the additional monies to get the VPI dual pivot mod.
I need to be fiscally responsible. So getting a new tonearm may only happen some time from now due to other expenses I’m needing to deal with outside of audio upgrades, $170 for the dual pivot mod.is not that much more, so i could probably pull that off without ending up in debtors’ prison.
Mike
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Dover, I found a VPI youtube video that shows one of their gimbal tonearms can easily be swapped out with their unipvot tonearm. You simply unscrew the point to get it out of the way. Then their gimbal tonearm fits right into the same hole the unipivot point was in. I’ll need to find out if tonearms other than VPI’s would fit in that hole.
For any other interested rookies, the video is below.:
Mike
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Dover, appreciate your advice. Another factor is installing the dual pivot changes settings like the azimuth etc. So since I’m going to have the tone arm set up professionally done, I’d need to get the dual pivot mod in place prior to having my newly purchased Lyra Kleos installed. That’s why I’ve go to make a decision on getting the mod now. as it can’t simply be installed as an add-on. I’ll have a little leeway as it will take some time for a Lyra to get here from Japan.
Not to appear stupid, but it can’t be helped, What part of a tonearm assembly. constitutes the "armband" you mentioned? That piece of info will begin my education on tonearms. Thanks,
Mike
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Mr_m, that does sound like sensible and sage advice. Sometimes it’s hard to figure out what to do when you get advice from some diametrically opposed to other’s advice. But that’s the internet for you. I do enjoy gathering information, trying to figure things out, and making considered decisions, Especially where there’s some significant cash on the line, So that part of the equation’s not an issue.
I’ll share a little bit of personal background, Before retiring my previous career was in corrections and mental health, When running a correctional unit or institution there are potentially serious consequences for not figuring things out correctly and making sound decisions . Nobody’s going to get hurt if I end up making the wrong choice about some stereo equipment. This is only a fun hobby like you say. So if folk get too adamant, you have to take it with a grain of salt.
My gut tells me now I should get the dual pivot mod, so to not potentially waste the cost of a professional turntable setup, so that’s what I’ll probably do. But If adding a dual pivot mod later only involves readjusting the azimuth you could be right to just go ahead .and consider adding only the mod later. I’ll look into that and consider that option. Could be a money saver.
Thanks for your thoughtful post,
Mike
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Pleaase pardon the typos above. Ran out of time to get them edited out.
Mike
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Daveyf, other’s concur with you about the Lyra Kleos needing a precise setup. That’s why I’m going to have a pro doing that job. I really have no way to know if the DIY setup I did wth my current tonearm and cartridge was spot on or miserable. I’ll not take that chance with Kleos.
When it comes time I’ll start as thread on tonearms to see what suggestions you all come up with on gimbal ones. Even the VPI models climb rapidly into the $4000 range. This is an expensive hobby. That’s more than the Classic 2 cost. I doubt I’ll ever upgrade the Classic 2 as I’ve other priorities in life and don’t buy lottery tickets.
And I’m surely hoping a tonearm upgrade won’t be necessary if I do upgrade the current VPI JMW 10.5i unipivot tonearm with the VPI dual pivot mod, Nice to hear your dealer has set up VPI turntables with Lyra cartridges with good results.
Mike
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Cbl117, you’re the second person I’ve heard say they thought the dual pivot mod was a hassle. What makes it so in your estimation? I read one person didn’t like that the second pivot point simply drags across the surface it rests on when in use. That person bought a mod to the dual pivot mod that replaced the pivot’s point with a small ruby ball bearing. My dealer said cueing was more difficult .with the mod in use for some reason. I’d appreciate if you could elaborate a little on what you don’t like about it to help me make a better decision on getting it or not. Opinions seem to be mixed. Thanks.
I’d like to upgrade to a table like you describe, But I can’t spend any more on equipment upgrades since my entire system was just replaced at great expense, far as my budget is concerned. So outside of getting the Lyra Kleos, which I really shouldn’t have spent money on, I’ve got to live within my means and enjoy what I have.
Mike
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Stringreen, in what ways did the dual pivot improve your system? I’ve read a few things about improvements using it and would like to hear yours. Appreciate your impression of the bearing VPI., I assume you’re speaking of one of their FB gimbal models, They do have a couple of relatively inexpensive ones in the $500 range too. Thanks,
Mike
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