Grimm MU1 Streamer - Really "The Best"?

@nyev Your conclusion in regard to usb seems solid. Looking at how the usb implemented Phoenix vs N20 this is what should be expected.

I'd be very interested in your comparison of AES if you did get the Antipodes, I came very, very close to purchasing the K50 for the very reason of comparing SPDIF vs usb. In your case you'd also be comparing to Aurender for this rendering mode. The other thing that really sold me on Antipodes was the optimized direct network output port for use in dual streamer setups which I've found  to be optimal in my setups up to present.

@sns 

Interesting feedback on K50….coming very close to and really sold me on Antipodes; which one is it?  Did you end up buying the K50? And what DAC did you pair your K50 with….

“Right now there just isn’t anything I can do with the N20 with USB that will change”
@nyev

Your feedback on N20 USB output is interesting. I believe you’re now spoiled by PhoenixUSB which takes the incoming signal and completely regenerates it to an extremely high-precision signal to feed into your DAC. This goes back to the argument of separates vs one box. Is K50 / MU1 going to measure up, only time will tell :-)

I won’t be surprised if after trying N20 / K50 and MU1, you end up preferred your current trio of Innuos.

@lalitk I think you are right that the PhoenixUSB may have spoiled me. While it’s possible I could fall back to preferring Innuos, if I did that I’d move to the Statement (non next gen), which should be slightly better than what I have now, in a single device solution, as it not only has the PhoenixUSB embedded, it also has embedded Ethernet regen, on top of all the power supply benefits.

But, if I understand correctly, the USB output’s of the N20, K50, and the MU1 are not really optimized, while their AES interfaces ARE optimized, as intentional design choices. The N20’s AES output has the benefit of leveraging their high precision clock (so should be a better comparison with the PhoenixUSB performance), whereas the N20’s USB has no such optimization that I am aware of. Aurender’s own marketing says exactly this on the N20’s web page.

Mark Jenkins of Antipodes has talked in interviews about USB being flawed compared with other interfaces, and while I’m no expert, I think he’s likely correct, but I also think you can engineer around such flaws as Innuos (and I hear Taiko) have done. It’s just that Aurender, Antipodes, and Grimm didn’t bother. And Innuos totally didn’t bother with AES at all - until their latest line of products (Pulse).

So I think the fight isn’t fair for the N20 yet, as currently I’m comparing its non-optimized USB interface with Innous’ heavily optimized USB interface. The AES cable will allow me to compare all solutions on even terms. I think Innuos is likely king of the hill by a long shot when it comes to USB, aside from Taiko.

That’s all my running theory at least, to be substantiated through my testing….

So far, the N20 testing has really helped solidify what I like and don’t like about my Innuos setup. It’s true I had taken its strengths for granted:

Strengths I want to keep:

-Transparency

-Bandwidth (higher highs and lower lows)

-Soundstage Depth

Weaknesses I want to fix:

-Sets the listener back from the soundstage (not a flaw, this is just based on my preference)

-Could have better focus on all tones, with more solidity, and to use the word HiFi Advice likes to use, “incisiveness”.

-Not sure if I want this quite yet: could have slightly more “meat on the bones” in terms of an added richness and organic sound. The reason I’m not sure if I want this is that I don’t know if achieving this is possible without sacrificing the other qualities I’m after. I’m quite certain based on accounts of others that the K50 and N20 (with AES) are the only options that could achieve this. The question is, at what cost.

I do feel based on accounts of others that the MU1 or the K50 could possess have these all covered.  I probably shouldn’t discount the Statement too.

“to be substantiated through my testing….”
@nyev

That’s been my motto as well. Only through testing within the context of our systems we can leverage the strengths and recognize weaknesses of a given component. All else is pure speculation or simply an opinion. Given my extensive experience with N20, the N20 performance greatly varied by what’s ahead in your chain. With EMM DA2 DAC, I enjoyed N20 more with AES over USB. Not that USB sucked but I preferred AES as it sounded more addictive and natural to my ears. Granted, I was using two different brands of cabling. Another friend of mine, reported similar traits, N20 connected through AES to his MSB Reference DAC.

Later I switched to a Network Attached DAC with external clock and power supply. The N20 connected to my DAC via LAN (no USB or AES cabling) and re-clocked by external 10MHz clock was a different beast all together. The effect of external clock on N20 was pretty startling to say the least. The channel separation, lower distortion and a greater phase clarity became the hallmark of music signal. The new level of realism, more analogous, intimate presentation with external clock in the mix especially with higher resolutions files.

Again, this is going back to the argument of separates vs one box…USB implementations, OCXO’s clocks on a PCB board in a confined space can only do so much. And for most part, they do a pretty darn good job. Having experienced what I’ve with external clock, I can’t imagine going back to listening to a Streamer and a DAC without an external Clock in the mix. I am now looking forward to further pushing the limits with either W20SE or N30SA.

Whatever you decide, just enjoy the ride!

@lalitk +1

The day before yesterday I connected an Atlas Mavros (copper) AES between my N20 and DAC. Just interested to see if I'd been missing something regarding AES.

Well started listening yesterday evening and it was sorely lacking compared to the USB. Granted the USB is solid silver, but they are both similarly priced.

With AES music was less separated, sounded congealed with less micro detail and above all zero PRAT.

I could easily tell in a blind listening test. The USB being light, airy with high tops and clear bass. Timbre and textures were excellent too. Vocals were real.

So I know my Musetec 005 is USB optomised but as @lalitk said even all your downstream components can influence the sound.

Anyway we'll find out for certain when you get your cables.

@latik In stating I was sold on Antipodes, I was within days of purchasing K50 when I was notified the custom build streamer I ended up purchasing came up for sale. Again, K50 was my choice based on the second ethernet port optimized for output to second streamer, as you know still my preference at this point. I had nothing against the Aurenders or Innuos, simply fact Antipodes had the nice AES AND network outputs.

@lordmelton , interesting results of your AES testing, thanks. Not suggesting this is the correct way to think of it, but Audioquest’s AES Diamond cable costs 2.5X their Diamond USB cable (both silver). Just raising the question of whether an equally priced AES and USB cable should be expected to perform equally or not. Audioquest’s pricing suggests not, but I really don’t know.

@lalitk 

Later I switched to a Network Attached DAC with external clock and power supply. The N20 connected to my DAC via LAN (no USB or AES cabling) and re-clocked by external 10MHz clock was a different beast all together. The effect of external clock on N20 was pretty startling to say the least. The channel separation, lower distortion and a greater phase clarity became the hallmark of music signal. The new level of realism, more analogous, intimate presentation with external clock in the mix especially with higher resolutions files.

Forgive me if I’m missing something but if your dac is “network attached” then the N20 will have virtually nothing to do with the performance of the dac/clock.

@lordmelton 

Your aes vs usb test is very likely a null result…if you were to get your hands on a really good aes cable and a similar quality usb cable you might hear an accurate outcome. Very few (unless your dac has an inferior aes input and a supercharged usb input) would arrive at your conclusion. The N20/Aurender aes implementation is quite often the preferred output. The clock in the N20 is quite good…

@sns , I edited your statement for accuracy:

"I’d be very interested in your comparison of AES if when you did get the Antipodes"

Trying to stay committed to giving each of these three and the Statement too (which Nuno at Innuos has actually directly offered to send to my local dealer, who is not an Innuos dealer, for me to try).

I’ve been deliberating whether to continue with the "buy used" route where possible (the MU1 may not be possible), or to try to switch to working direct with dealers/companies to get a demo. From a cost perspective, it’s not all that different really, after I compared all the possible outcomes. Maybe it’s just me, but I’m always apprehensive of involving dealers/vendors unless I’m fairly confident I’ll buy a particular product, and involving 3-4 vendors in this with all the shipping involved seems excessive to ask of them all, when I will in the end only buy one of them. I did conduct a Shunyata vs Audioquest shootout for power cables where they each sent me demos, and I ensured both companies knew what I was up to at the outset. Shunyata in particular was extraordinarily helpful through the process with proactive communication from Richard, and for the most part I chose Audioquest only because of personal preference.

As I said, Innuos generously offered to send a demo Statement for me. With Antipodes I’ve heard they offer 30 day returns when buying direct, which would work for me. And Grimm is more restrictive - they offer a 14 day return policy as part of their purchase contract, but only from the time they ship the unit, and they require tracking info when returning the unit for proof it was returned on time. I guess it’s doable but that would be rushed.

If I proceed with buying the used K50 for sale now, it means I may need to involve my dealer with the Innuos and Grimm servers (I think we get around the import duty if it’s sent to my dealer, or at least I never directly pay for it), and I’d feel bad if I chose the K50, or the N20 for that matter, in the end.

Trying to figure out the most reasonable path to trialing all 4 servers without putting out the companies and dealer too much. I’m totally willing to pay for shipping and their time helping set this up, but I don’t think that really helps from their perspectives.

@ghasley 

The ‘network’ part of my Merging Technologies DAC can be bit confusing to anyone if they are not familiar with the concept of RAVENNA. So what does RAVENNA network configuration allows…..Peer to Peer connection to any numbers of computer or streamers over your network. The Merging DAC has the capability of controlling multiple sources over the network, for example I can connect and toggle between a Innuos Statement, K50 and N20 from its source menu for side by side comparison, all over Ethernet. Think of Merging DAC equivalent to an Analog Preamp but in digital domain. 

Now the clock, The MERGING+CLOCK is designed to provide Synchronized Perfection to multiple components simultaneously that can accept Master / Word Clock inputs, like N20 and my Merging DAC.

You can read up in detail about Merging CLOCK here, 

RAVENNA

This open and published IP network technology had been created to meet the demands of national broadcasters and focused on essential requirements of extremely accurate clocking, high resistance to packet loss and very low latency. Initially it did not encompass high PCM sampling rates and certainly not DSD. However, it was not difficult to make changes to allow that, so Merging worked closely with the developers to make sure that sufficient channels at up to DSD256 could be handled with an accuracy that exceeded anything previously available. It remains the only logical choice for the professional and the audiophile and is now available in MERGING+NADAC. The added bonus to using an advanced networking solution is being able to send and receive control information as well as audio data. This opened up exciting possibilities in the studio and now you can enjoy these same benefits in your own home. 

This was inevitable but I sent an offer for the used K50. Will figure out the path forward for trialing the other streamers later. Should be a good offer as it’s been listed a while. But I won’t proceed if they counter.

Hopefully I can get my analysis of these products completed before the recession hits. Otherwise I’m prepared to lose some cash. These products at this level will sit listed on the used market for many months at the best of times. Interestingly that used MU1 seems to have sold in a flash. At least it’s not listed anymore. Sort of wished I just scooped up all three lol…. It’s a very satisfying process to validate these products and be confident of their respective strengths and weaknesses.  And, learning a bit more about my own preferences in the process.

Tried going back to my Innuos boxes for the first time after a few days. Wow. Just blown away by the added resolution, transparency, air, and separation. Voices and instruments hanging in space etc. But at the same time, on my “revealing” system I am missing some groundedness/focus that the N20 offers. The image with the Innuos setup is not as “locked in place”. I also suspect the Aurender is warm leaning while the Innuos is strictly neutral, which makes some material a tad thin (but never bright). Will see how the N20 fares once I get the AES cable. And hopefully, the K50 as well!

Nothing new, just really validated my prior assessments.

I can imagine how the new Statement Next-Gen sounds, based on reports, and based on my own experience with lesser Innuos products. I bet it fixes all the issues I have aside from the touch of warmth/richness that I seem to want.

Yep. Going back to the N20 (with presumed limited USB performance so not a full test), it’s just so much more solid sounding, with a nice warmth to it. Less going on with imaging though. And a very subtle high-hat on one particular track is totally audible with the Innuos gear, and not so much on the N20’s USB output. If the AES cable will help the N20 with high and low resolution, with a smidge better separation and depth, the N20 may very well be the winner yet.

As another aside, connecting the PhoenixUSB to the N20’s USB output, adds a touch of transparency but there is something lost. Less warmth, less “upbeatness”. Definitely prefer the N20 without the PhoenixUSB.  And without the PhoenixNET as I mentioned before.  It’s like it’s allergic to Innuos gear.

“Less going on with imaging though”
@nyev

Are you adjusting (toe-in) your speakers when you switch to N20? Based on your own account, both of these streamers differs in how they project imaging in your room.

@lalitk yes, that is correct.  I have two sets of toe in positions marked with a sharpie on the floor!  I have Herbie’s gliders so it’s easy to move the speakers between the two positions.

I've never been able to step back from more resolution, transparency once I've heard it, my goal is progress, lower resolution, transparency  is regression in my book. Certainly there have been times when the extra transparency and resolution has caused hits in other areas, very similar to what OP is experiencing, but I've usually been able to tune and tweak to get the balance I'm looking for. And there have been times when getting that fine balance was unobtainable, in that case the responsible component was sold off. When this happened another  higher resolving, transparent component was purchased to take the offending components place, just couldn't give up on higher resolution once heard.

On paper the new Innuos Statement looks very, very  nice.

“ I have two sets of toe in positions marked with a sharpie on the floor”

@nyev 

In that case, something else is out of place. Imaging is not a known issue with N20. 

@nyev 

Could I suggest, respectfully, that you perform a couple of very important techniques.

First, the differences between servers will be material but at this level they are each very, very good. The fact that all you are changing with speaker setup is a little toe-in speaks volumes. With each material compnent change in my system comes a complete re-setup of the speakers. Once they are marked on my fllor then, and only then, can I reasonably compare the two presentations.

The Zenith is not at the same performance level as the N20, even with the Phoenix. It doesn’t mean you shouldn’t like it more but it might also mean that with the Innuos chain being completely optimized for USB and the Gryphon dac board is certainly optimized for USB and your speaker setup optimized for that chain…which brings us to the N20.

Second, you might consider pumping the brakes and excerising more patience. Wait for the proper aes cable to arrive and settle in, take the time to reposition your speakers properly, take good notes. Mark the floor (not with a sharpie but properly notated painters tape LOL). Revisit and repeat. You are about to introduce a third and potentially fourth set of server/streamer variables and you are doing it at breakneck speed. Decide between the two high quality server/streamers you have on deck. A-B til you are sure which you like better and then, sell one on and demo/purchase the next one in the same manner. Then and only then will you possibly get where you want to go. Live with something a while.

Depending on the day, a Bentley is a more satisfying drive than a Range Rover…on other days, the opposite….over a longer period of time….you will prefer one over the other when all things are considered. Listen to bad recordings of good music…which setup makes that exercise more fun. 

Perhaps the most important thing to inject into the process? While the inboard Gryphon dac board is quite good, you seem to be seeking a 10 out of 10 with a steady stream of $10-30k streamer/servers….they will each sound very different, especially if your speaker setup remains reasonably static. It isn’t a race so allow your right brain to guide the experiments and your left brain to evaluate the musical enjoyment.

As always, best wishes with the journey. 

@ghasley 

+1. Wise counsel.

Charles

@ghasley , and others, good advice - thanks. I have no intention to move on to another server anytime soon, even if I end up acquiring another right now. My thought is I can hook the K50 up to a cheap DAC I have and just run it for months. I’ve heard the K50 cand sound rough for a while.  I definitely have not heard the N20 at its best yet, without the AES cable.  I fully expect it will clearly pull ahead of my Innuos setup once I try multiple AES cables.  The fact that in can almost tie my Innuos’ heavily optimized USB with its non optimized USB is very telling.  I still wonder if the N20 will actually be just right in the end, for me, once I try the AES cable.  It has a touch of warmth and that solidity I’m after.  Just need a bit more transparency.

@lalitk , i didn’t mean to imply the imaging was not good with the N20.  What’s happening is purely related to the lack of upper end transparency and resolution compared with the Innuos gear.  The imaging is all intact with the N20.  But without that last touch of air and resolve, you don’t get that effect of suspended in space vocals and instruments as much as with the Innuos.  It’s there, just not as much.  Switching to the Innuos it’s more 3D - not to say the N20 is not 3D, it is for sure.

Lastly, it’s not a deciding factor at all, but if the N20 wins out, I must say that I like the screen.  Even if I’ve had it off in critical listening mode for the most part.  And it’s the only device I’m looking at that has one!

I was waiting until this morning to confirm, but the N20’s bass has become fuller rather suddenly. It’s not as big overall compared with the Innuos boxes at this point, but now it’s got so much more drive and solidity in the bass than the Innuos, despite not being as big and well defined. At this point I’d choose the Aurender’s bass over the Innuos bass (which is still more precise, refined, and accurate, but with less drive, focus, and solidity). The N20’s mid and top end still sounds the same as before. But wow, that bass drive is impressive.  There is a grip there that didn’t exist 1 day prior.

It’s for reasons like this that when I get the AES cable, I plan to use it at least for a solid month prior to comparing to a third server like the K50, should I acquire one now. As I said above I’ve heard accounts that the AES circuits do not automatically break in along with the rest of the unit if AES is not used during initial breakin. If I’m not mistaken I think the original owner used USB so the AES may never have been used. Same goes for my DAC’s AES interface.

With the K50, if the seller agrees to my offer (haven’t heard back so maybe they didn’t accept), it’s simply to acquire a used K50 at a decent price while one is available used. My focus won’t shift for some time yet!

And to re-setup your speakers. Its a thing. Seriously.

@ghasley , I probably wouldn’t have believed you on having to reset up my speakers had I not already found the need to do that between the N20 and the Innuos products!  At least I knew from what I was hearing that the speakers needed an initial adjustment with the N20, rather than just assuming the N20’s imaging was messed up, which is not the case at all.  So yes I am expecting further tweaks will be needed once the AES cable goes in.  And the cable will need burning in itself.  My dealer is closed Mondays but I’ll call tomorrow asking for an update on the AES cable.  There is a tendency for an item I’m waiting for to magically arrive at my dealer the very same day I call to ask for an update / remind them. 
 

Still waiting to hear back from Sablon (although I first emailed on Friday), and I am poking Jorma again too.  Seems hard to get their attention; business must be good.

And @ghasley , I do have sharpie marks on my floor for the EXACT speaker positions, much to the chagrin of my wife. All I had on hand was a red sharpie, so my wife was like “OMG IS THAT BLOOD”…. She thought maybe I had truly taken my hobby too far lol…..

I find if the speakers are just a few millimetres off, things sound different for sure. Sometimes to the extent that if something sounds slightly off, I can simply wiggle one speaker without repositioning and the problem can be fixed. I put the sharpie marks at the circumference of the Herbie’s gliders that I use.

I used to use painters tape as you suggested, but I found it to be less precise than drawing 4 small lines around each of the gliders.

Update:  I should also mention that my wife was okay with the sharpie on the floor when I proved to her it comes right off with a dab of acetone / nail polish remover, without ruining the floor in any way!

@nyev 

Often I will cut multiple strips of painters tape, the same number of strips of heavy duty graph paper (the kind with precise grids). I place the strips according to precise measurements. I mark the paper with the corresponding measurements and then go to work. Once I get them dialed in, making notes along the way, and then I snap photos. I make notes of everything, down to the cable, the time of day, the tracks used and the resolution of the file. Then, once dialed in, I put it all away and just live with the final product for a while. Its a rare occurrence that things dont need readjustment, with new notes, photos, etc. Really smart (or impatient) people rarely go these lengths and thus, they get random and unrepeatable outcomes.

Everyone has their technique…the one Ive settled with works for me…YMMV.

Yes, I found getting the positioning the best it could be before the tweaks became less frequent took a lot of incremental adjustments over a long period of time. I’m sure I could further refine the speaker positions with the N20, but the towed in positions solved the initial image issues I had observed.

I had two issues with the painter’s tape. First, the edge is flat, when I’m measuring the exact position of the round Herbie’s slider. The sharpie enables me to apply a small amount of curvature, by tracing the slider at four points around the slider. This allows me to “seat” the speaker’s four sliders more accurately within these small curves, ensuring the desired position is re-achieved. I can then have several incremental markings that I can flip between when experimenting with minute changes. The other issue I had with tape is, over time, sliding over it and damaging its position. Anyhow, that seems to have worked for me with my prior Innuos setup, albeit over the course of months (with intensive effort in the first week or two of positioning, followed by intermittent tweaks over subsequent months). I’m satisfied that I have achieved the optimal positioning with the Innuos gear. Until something changes in the system or room, as you pointed out!

Yes, time of day totally matters too…. I still have better performance at night after midnight, with better special separation and depth. Nothing unusual there!l, but annoying nonetheless!

One thing I noticed about positioning. I gave up on measuring until the very end. I find that going on my ears usually results in a near symmetrical (and a few times exactly symmetrical) position for the speakers. If there is a slight discrepancy at the end, I then adjust one speaker at a time while marking their original positions, to see which one should move to match the other.

My latest process, which is constantly evolving. But for me personally my current process is way ahead of what I used to do.

Speaking of “pumping the brakes”, one seller responded that their K50 is confirmed by Antipodes as being the V1 hardware, prior to the major 2021 revision in response to the supply chain issues they were facing. I don’t think there is any consensus on how the sound changes, other than both versions sound great. The revisions were major as I mentioned, to the clock, power supply and other areas, so there must be some degree of sonic difference even if one is not “better”. That said, I think I’d still want to be testing the latest rev.

The other seller hasn’t got back to me on my offer. Will let it go. Just trying to line up opportunities for the future for testing the other two, as opportunities arise to buy used. At this level, opportunities only come by once in a while. My focus remains on taking my time getting to know the N20 regardless of what happens!  The recent  development with respect to bass is rather exiting.  The whole presentation has a lot more presence and energy as a result.

If only I could get Sablon and / or Jorma to respond in regard to the AES cable. Will try calling them next.

You would have had the Jorma last week from The Cable Company. I’ve found when manufacturers have a distribution partner, they expect it to be used.

@ghasley 

I believe it has been acknowledged that the Cable Company doesn't extend their lending service to Canada.

Charles

And they refuse returns for cables in many circumstances. And generally frown upon the concept.

Also I find that being in Canada, brands often prefer dealing directly when there is no distribution in my country available. That was the case with Innuos, where they preferred to work through a dealer of my choice. Which is great because I don’t directly deal with import duties with that approach.

Also, Jorma’s website lists “Vana Ltd” as their distribution on NA.  I have an open ticket with them I opened over a week ago.

@nyev 

Listen, I’m not trying to be difficult…but..you are considering acquiring two, maybe three $15kish server/streamers simultaneously. I’m not sure I understand why you might be worried about whether you can return a $1-1.5k aes cable or duties? Time value of money vs money value of time…

@ghasley totally get it. First, I do expect to get back most of the value of the devices I try but do not keep. Also I wouldn’t actually go further than the K50 now without first unloading one of the other servers I have, even if I “wish” I could just get all three so I have them ready to be tested. Having just the next one waiting in the wings is enough!

Buying cables can rack up the cost very quickly if it doesn’t work out and I end up having to buy 3-4 pricey cables. Not sure if this is correct but I have a hunch these may be harder to resell as well.

If I could buy a good used AES cable with reasonable confidence that it’s not counterfeit, I would. At least my Audioquest Diamond demo should be arriving anytime at my dealer, hopefully this week.

In short, I’m not about throwing my cash around, unless I’m reasonably confident I can get the cash back, even if it takes some time. Plus, the interaction with The Cable Co wasn’t the best and I wouldn’t want to go through them - will leave it at that.

If I’m lucky, when all is said and done I will not even have spent the full amount of the new server, as I’ll be able to sell everything I’m not keeping, including my existing Innuos gear.  In reality I know that might be a stretch.  Especially due to the pending recession, which may put major delays in selling.

Back to the N20. Have been listening all night while working on my laptop. I know, not ideal (the working part). It is just so enjoyably immediate, so condensed (not compressed), so inviting with a touch of warmth, and so opposite really from the Innuos’ open expansive neutral and ultra-detailed sound. The N20 has a totally different take, that is highly musical. With the added bass that has arrived it adds some drive that was missing before. I am not demanding a solution that has all of the upper frequency resolution of the Innuos. Just halfway between the N20 and the Innuos would be fine. With a touch of high frequency resolution I think the 3D depth and spatial positioning would as a byproduct get better too. If this were achieved I’d be happy with this solution if it was the last server I owned. I find speaker positioning is far more finicky with my Innuos (in my revealing-leaning system), as the slightest bit off can just totally ruin things. The N20 is far more forgiving.

Starting to think the Innuos setup might give me too much transparency. It’s mind blowing how much inner detail it adds when I switch back to Innuos; it’s almost like a HiFi tech demo vs the N20 which has a more liquid and music-driven presentation. Another thing I blamed on my speakers was very poor off axis performance where if you move inches from the sweet spot the image starts falling apart. Not so with the N20. The image follows beautifully moving left to right. I’m still blown away at how a network player can impact these things. I had never realized that before.

Long story short the N20 is extremely enjoyable, especially on more intimate stripped down recordings which were just magical.  Moments where you forget about your stereo completely and it’s just the music.

Back to work and cable-hunting.  I think Sweden opens for business in a couple hours so may drop them a line.

Long story short the N20 is extremely enjoyable, especially on more intimate stripped down recordings which were just magical.  Moments where you forget about your stereo completely and it’s just the music

It this turns out to be the essential distinction between the two, I’d choose the Aurender by the proverbial country mile. IMHO the best audio components shift your attention away from the equipment and delve deep into the music being played.

Charles

I dealt with Cable Company for years, never a problem returning a cable, this with literally hundreds of cable over years. I understand one may have issues with any single rep at the Cable Co, I had issues with one individual there, refused to deal with him anymore. Funny thing is at the end of all that cabling demoing I ended up worrying less about cabling, kind of set it and forget it mindset.

@charles1dad Different strokes for different folks. I want max res and trans, I find extracting max info draws me further into music, Following is usual response I have from system these days. Early in listening session, listening to sound, admiring it, followed by music intensity mode which can last for hours with short intervals of listening to the sound. Great thing is admiring quality of sound is very satisfying for me these days,  this need  to admire sound is what sets audiophiles apart from 'normal' mortals, I'll also posit audiophiles will always listen to sound at some point in listening sessions. Quality sound should elicit an inherent pleasure, one that's  quite separate from the music, analysis of sound quality shouldn't be perceived as an inferior listening mode to enjoyment of music.

“IMHO the best audio components shift your attention away from the equipment and delve deep into the music being played.”

+1, @charles1dad 

@sns analysis of sound quality shouldn’t be perceived as an inferior listening mode to enjoyment of music.

Different strokes for different folks, indeed.

Nothing wrong with analyzing sound. Everyone has to enjoy and appreciate the listening experience in their own preferable manner. I was just stating my priorities. They certainly do not have to be your chosen way. No proclamations here.

I do genuinely appreciate good sound quality or I wouldn’t be so selective with audio equipment. But, when all is said and done, the way the music is reproduced and presented is far more valuable to me. Again, that’s just me.

Charles

Yes, we all have differing sonic priorities so what one finds less enjoyable completely immerses another. Love this hobby!

I owned the Phoenix USB reclocker with my Innuos Zenith 3, and while it improved transparency, I ended up selling it as I preferred the more relaxed and organic sound of my Mojo Audio dac without it. Just a reflection of my preference.

I will say this again as I feel it is important. Try a SR Purple fuse in your server/streamer before making any kind of final decision. Let it burn in for 48 hours and then listen. This one tweak has improved the sound of my streaming front end more than any other single network upgrade. No joke. Yes, more than my switch, filters, LPS and other network upgrades. A revelation in my Zenith. Regardless of your feelings on fuses, be open minded and try one. They offer a 30 day return policy. Don’t judge the sound until in place and run in for 48 hours. Get one rated about 25% higher amperage than the stock fuse.

All sonic parameters improved. All of them. Music is also released more from the speakers in a magical way. I have tried many fuses over the years and the Purple one is just so special in my Innuos server. It’s like I upgraded to a far more expensive server.

Charles, I am going to put the Purple fuse in my Tron dac as my only tweak 🙂. We will see if it also brings the magic with this dac or not.

@grannyring Charles, I am going to put the Purple fuse in my Tron dac as my only tweak 🙂. We will see if it also brings the magic with this dac or not

Bill, I’m genuinely interested in the outcome with the excellent Tron DAC. Did you find the SR Purple fuse to be directional? The builder of my new DAC said listening confirmed to him that wire is directional in orientation.  He knows that this is a controversial position, he doesn’t care.

Charles

Yes indeed Charles. The fuse is certainly directional.  I have found all fuses to be directional.  Innuos has a fuse flow diagram on their site. The Purple flows from S to R on the label and when placed according to the Innuos flow diagram the fuse sounds best.  

@grannyring , for sure have read yours and other’s accounts of the improvements fuses can bring. I definitely plan to follow up on this when I get to the tweak phase. I’m sure based on the many accounts out there that the fuses would lift both the N20 and my Innuos gear. But my thinking currently is to see how I find each server on equal terms first.

I’m a terrible audiophile and really fell into this path not for the sake of the gear, but rather by my obsession with music as a teen, and struggling to find a stereo system that I didn’t find utterly grating and destructive to my enjoyment of music. I found I couldn’t spend $5k (decades ago) on a full scale system and have it be enjoyable. I tried everything I could going to dealers and found everything to be grating in some way. I succumbed to a $1,200 Yamaha mini system that actually sounded rather good for what it was, and wasn’t grating like those $5k full systems sounded to me. My daughter now has it in her bedroom after my sister gave it to her after I had given it to my sister.

The quest continues, but yeah, for me personally music comes first.

So I asked my dealer for an ETA on the Audioquest AES cable, and lo and behold, it just arrived this morning. Like I said, happens every single time I check in for an update :)

Anyways at least I have an AES cable of decent quality to start burning in along with my N20’s AES circuits and clock.

So far, the ONLY difference with AES on the N20 is that it has less of the upper frequencies that make it through, ve USB. It will be interesting to see how this progresses as the Audioquest Diamond cable is brand new with 0 hours, I don’t think the N20’s AES circuits have ever been engaged, and my DAC’s AES input has never been used.

I’m actually really glad I started with the Diamond AES cable, so I can compare as much as possible the differences between USB and AES using a truly equivalent cable. It’s quite remarkable how they just sound identical when I flip from one to the other, with the exception of more upper frequencies with USB. Other than that, I can’t detect any other differences whatsoever at this point.

@nyev Go into the Aurender settings - ADVANCED and change the SPDIF output to PROFESSIONAL.

Next go to RESET DAC VOLUME CONTROL.

TURN YOUR VOLUME CONTROL TO ZERO BEFORE YOU DO THE RESET!!!!

Enjoy!!!!

I've found 'closed in' sq typical early in burn in period. Fuses do make a difference, forgot about this in case of streamer, will try the purple.

When speaking of deriving pleasure from the sound of my system vs music, its not a battle, rather I take great pleasure from both. Certainly my immersion into music has followed with better sound, but better sound has also brought a new appreciation of that sound, the analytical mode of listening is no longer something I want to avoid.  Now I can relate to the need to get away from the analytic mode of listening, in the sense this will uncover some already known flaw or perhaps new flaw. In this case the analytical mode is not bringing us full measure of pleasure, its simply a utilitarian mode required in creating our 'perfect' system. Easy to understand the desire to escape this and fall into the music loving mode. Perhaps I am like Matisse in that I can now derive pleasure from what could be analagous to a painting, in that I perceive my audio system as a totally unique 'work of art'. Think of all the work and time that goes into building our systems, in my case nearly fifty years of listening to audiophile systems and or building systems, think of all the resources we expend in our never ending search for this 'perfect' system.  So now we reach this point where the analysis of sound no longer brings displeasure, only pleasure. This becomes OUR great work of art, we take great pleasure in the 'shapes and hues' of our creation. Hues and shapes in regard to audio reproduction is the overall gestalt of our creation, this holistic perspective in regard to sound can bring great pleasure, the SOUND is OUR masterpiece, the music is another person's masterpiece.

And this mode of listening need not compete or interfere with our immersion into the music, it only ADDS to it. I have to seriously question whether I'm  alone in taking this amount of pleasure from APPRECIATION of the sound ? Hard for me to believe all of us don't take some measure of pleasure from our creations or works of art!

@charles1dad  When speaking of 'different strokes for different folks' I was referring to a  preference for the color of our systems on a warm to cool scale, romantic being on warm side, analytical on cold, cool end. I've built systems and heard systems that reside at nearly all places on  this scale. Based on quite large sample size I've come to realize my preference is for just slightly cool side of neutral, someone else may fall anywhere along this line. This preference is why I stated I'd prefer the Innuous over the Aurender based on @nyev  sound analysis.

@sns

I’ve come to realize my preference is for just slightly cool side of neutral, someone else may fall anywhere along this line. This preference is why I stated I’d prefer the Innuous over the Aurender based on @nyev sound analysis.

No problem at all. As we both know this is subjectivity in pure form. You’re just a bit to the “cool” side of neutral and I’m just a bit to the “warm” side of neutral.

Charles