Great speaker sounds terrible in my room?

@johnk I think we got it figured out…but thanks for your comment.

Poor placement = no bass don't want to change that? Then get a sub or deal with your choice of placement.

@baylinor , 1++🙂  Subs are opposed because it is so difficult under usual circumstances to get them set up right. It is very difficult by ear. Listen on a great set of Headphones and compare. Do it in Mono. Sit in the listening position and switch back and forth between the headphones and the speakers. Subs well integrated sound just like the headphones except your belly vibrates and when the right note comes along your house rattles. 

I had a room with perfect sound once. Then I moved.

Took all I learned from that room into the new one. I have good sound now. But not like that room. It was a near perfect listening room.

What made it so great? Without a doubt the acoustic ceiling. It was the early acoustic ceiling made from concrete. No asbestos. 

One side was mostly rock wall. So had to fill the other wall with many carvings and sculptures to mimic the other wall.

Anyway, will probably never see a room like that until I can find someone who does concrete spray ceilings. Brilliant. Hope they come back in style.

 

@audioguy85 Common sense solution that is impractical in my situation. It’s all been delineated in this thread.

@fleschler as I had mentioned throughout this thread, my room isn’t dedicated and rearrangement is not an option. Speakers are not new. I’ve had several decent monitors in my rig and they all performed great with my ProAcs being exceptionally good. In hindsight I guess I expected the Ref 3A’s to dominate my room based upon their build quality and how good they sound during the demo. For whatever reasons my room just does not play nice in the sandbox with them. The saving grace has been my Rel T/9X. With the Rel, the presentation is quite nice and I have no complaints other than the mid bass having a tendency to be light (depending on the recording).

I appreciate everyone’s input on this thread. You guys have been very helpful, thanks for helping me figure this one out. 👍

Who has 10 feet to spare to set up speakers in this way? Not me...anyhow, I agree with previous posters/respondents, move the speakers closer to back wall. 

 

@ ishkabibil The manufacturer stated that the best position (probably for bass) is 3 feet from the wall, not 7 or 10 feet.  Plus, did the demo pair have 1000s of hours on it and yours is new?  Woofers can take 500 hours to break-in.  I have a higher end system with a $150,000 custom built listening room where I avoid problems and enhance the sound (bass traps built-into walls with multi-panel activated charcoal filters).   Besides the point, which is the location of your speakers, your room layout which doesn't look good to me (rearrange it as suggested) and break-in allowance for the woofers.

@holmz  Great site, thanks.   Ain't the truth---“The sole objective of the audio industry as a whole is to sell products.”

@pinthrift That site is at https://www.earglasses.com   Yes, Ear shape does change the sound, here for capturing more sound.   Interesting.  When I push my curved ears back, sound appears brighter and more detailed.  

Try downloading a copy of REW (Room Equalization Wizard), select the Room Simulation tab and enter your room dimensions. You can then move speaker and listening positions in the resulting diagram (you can do more, e.g. change surface absorptions, but this is the basic capability) and see the simulated frequency response up to 200 Hz.

Very educational and a lot easier than actually rearranging the room...

While I generally agree, in the case of the OP, they have few choices.

Secondly most speakers image better when the early reflection are more delayed.

I think going by ear is their best method for getting the speakers in a good place, but that will do nothing for bass if they do not couple to the wall.

So the only option remaining is a subwoofer, and at that point the REW makes sense.
With the difficulty in getting subs to play with music, and being a bit biased towards Vandys, I know what approaches I would be considering. The new ones are supposedly very good, and the older models will likely be appearing, and they are good too.

but I totally agree that a measurement is a more optimal way to convey the problem with the sound. And that the sketch the OP provided an improved way to convey the room constraints.

Try downloading a copy of REW (Room Equalization Wizard), select the Room Simulation tab and enter your room dimensions. You can then move speaker and listening positions in the resulting diagram (you can do more, e.g. change surface absorptions, but this is the basic capability) and see the simulated frequency response up to 200 Hz.

Very educational and a lot easier than actually rearranging the room...

(Pinthrift girds his loins before posting this)

I've decided to risk the flac that will surely be coming, however, if it helps one music lover during these trying times, so be it.  

My studio is beneath our bedroom and my wife turns in early, during my "prime-time" late night listening.  Lately, my system has been sizzling, at optimal performance.  The better things get, the more I'm drawn to classical, choral and smaller jazz ensembles, often with large dynamic swings in the music, especially with classical.  After my wife is asleep, I can often get away with around 70 decibels.  This is still frustrating with softer classical passages, often losing my interest along the way.  

So, this has provided a nice solution, not perfect, but satisfactory for late night:  https://wwwearglasses.com

...do I feel silly with them on, sure!  Are they comfortable and do they work, sure!  Check the science page.  Yes, there is loss, but at age 75, for their purpose, gains override the loss.  Having the benefit of great electricity here, I still have all day for peak listening. 

Okay, having risked ALL credibility in this Forum now, wishing you More Peace.  Think Positive / Test Negative.  Use laser ruler for setup!  Pin

 

 

How the hell do you walk around when your speakers are 7 feet out from the wall.....

I don’t think the basic problem of having poor balance due to insufficient bass will be resolved by changing components. What would really help is to spend about $100 on a measurement mic. and download a free program called REW. This is the only way to remove the guesswork. There is a forum that has a dedicated thread on using REW. It is a very useful tool and can also help you find the best position and set up for the sub you have.

I’m wondering if a single better sub (Rel S510) would be a game changer or make matters worse.

More than 1 sub results in a better distribution of modes. If you take your new found measurement skills 😎 and look at a plot of your speakers in your room you will notice huge peaks and valleys (nulls) instead of a nice ideal flat response. The peaks obscure detail and the nulls rob you of information, this is info containing important parts of the structure of music. It is essentially lost and unfortunately EQ can not bring it back!

Adding more subs will result in many more peaks and partial nulls that serves to smooth the response. The peaks will be lower and the nulls fuller. The more subs the smoother. So try for 3 or 4 and as I explained they do not have to be huge. The REL will reach down low and the additional smoothing-subs will even out the room which you can watch happen on your computer. Using smaller subs will smooth out the low frequencies as well as big expensive subs, they just won’t reach down as low but you will now hear stuff you didn’t know was there. The whole sound is improved and by that I mean the mids and tops with a w-i-d-e sweet spot.

If you have some mates with subs see if you can borrow 2 to just test the waters. If you set them up properly I can assure you that you will soon find places to put them, like behind your sofa. There is much to be found on this on the net. Doing this will be the game changer.

No amplifier, cables or any tweaks will provide you with what I’ve described.

 

 

 

 

Maybe try and talk to the person who sold them to you. They might have experience with using different components with the speakers and may have had to do some trial and error to get them to the way they had them sounding the way you liked.

@mozartfan The force of the speaker merry go round is strong 😁

@qwin These are the former top of the line monitors from Ref 3a so they have several years on them.

"They give you a break in time for these?"

This was my first thought too.

If you heard them in a store, they probably had a reasonable number of demo hours on them.
I'm presuming you bought new, so they will require some brake in of the bass drivers suspension. I would persevere a bit and let them loosen up before jumping to conclusions.
But speakers will sound completely different in different environments, so nothing is guaranteed.

Terminator Dac, Aurender N100SC streamer. I’ve had Sonus Farber Concertino’s, Vienna Acoustics Haydn, KEF 150’s and my ProAcs all set up in the same manner and they all were excellent performers ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ something aint right here,, if ecah was winner,, why buy others?? why not just stay w 1 speaker??? I know why. I never did ride on the speaker merry go round. FR til death. Dont need speakers any more, I already have the best. The proble is midwoofer/midwtters are flawed in the 1200hz- 3500hz band width.

Swap the TV with the couch, and back the speakers up to the TV.

Put in GIK acoustics corner traps floor to ceiling with diffusor panels.

For sure adding the sub is a game changer.

And sometimes it takes a walk away from listening and coming back to revisit to satisfy.

Enjoy.

@ishkabibil 

it is what it is brother. There was no way to replicate my set up at the sellers room. Truth be told they are sounding pretty sweet right now with the Rel dialed in. A much more detailed & spatial presentation than my ProAc’s.

@lemonhaze 

I think “IF” I had the space to add another Rel, these Ref 3A’s would be incredible. I emphasize “if” because I really don’t have the space right now…although I’m wondering if a single better sub (Rel S510) would be a game changer or make matters worse. 

The lack of bass is from lack of boundary reinforcement. Do what's needed to keep these speakers because to replace them with something that equals let alone surpasses them is going to cost lots. They present an easy load and are fairly sensitive. I liked what I heard.

Something to try is to place them directly on the floor in the same position you have them now. This will allow you to hear what some mistakenly call room gain. Sure, the imaging etc. will suffer but not that much. Perhaps there is a height where the balance of sound is closer to your target.

You have bass traps which is good. Do you also have some broad-band absorbers at the first reflection points? You need to consider that all 3 axes should be treated. Absorption on either the back or front wall needed or both. Same for side walls. For the floor to ceiling axis an overhead absorber is better than any carpet but you may reject the idea so won't waste our time explaining what and how if you're not interested.

There is more to consider. If you find the bass increase to your liking when placing speakers on the floor then perhaps it's possible to mount the speakers in the kitchen area and then position your primary listening area about 38% from the back wall.  At 50% into the room you are in a partial null unless you have extensive bass traps and employ a distributed bass array.

Finally, look into a multi-sub approach. Somewhere in these threads I mentioned how this can be inconspicuously  incorporated into the decor. Huge subs are not needed. You can consider 6.5" drivers in a sealed box with an 8" square footprint which is not difficult to hide. Perhaps use one to support a pot plant, hide one behind the sofa. 2 such subs plus your REL will do more, much more , than just bass.  The entire spectrum is enhanced. Check up on the theory and application of a DBA. Also try plugging the ports for a sealed box response which makes it easier to integrate with subs.

Ahhhh....

 

2ft off the back wall in your demo.

 

And you go 8ft more........

 

Need we say anymore?

10 ff. from front wall?

Do you expect that much air from the speakers to impress at that distance?

When you demo"d what was the distance?

 

baylinor

281 posts

02-08-2022 9:17pm

Couch lol
 

I remember when the term “Davenport”was the norm. Lol! SOFA. There,I fixed it. 

Just wanted to add my profound observation that boundary reinforcement for lower bass is better achieved by the listener moving back towards the wall behind them. This usually gives the most even and lowest boost.

@holmz Good find! Thanks for this.

@jl1ny  (your question may  have helped me more than it is helping you)

I have been though 25% of the papers (adjacent to that link.)

 

I think,,, that the best way to approach the problem is with some shift in perspective  to make it a challenge.

Maybe see if you can demo some subs…, if you read the lin, then you know what I would suggest.

They (subs) work vest in the corners, but the speakers pull out from the wall is better for imaging.

And we put speakers near that wall to reinforce the bass…

So a multi purpose room is a challenge, but there may be a lot of existing work that can guide us.

Approaching it as an engineering challenge is different perspective, than it being solely a problem. And likely brings a better mindset for opening up the solution space.

@baylinor

As I previously stated, it’s my living space not a dedicated listening room. I’m not into living in an apartment that looks like a Hi-Fi shop. When non-audiophile guests come over I tuck the speakers away in the bedroom which gives me maximum living space. If you haven’t played with near field listening then you wouldn’t believe how fantastic it can sound. Near field negates a lotta issues and puts up a big soundstage. I’ve demoed for a few audiophile friends who were skeptical and they all had the same eye brow lifting look on their faces. 😃 I’ve learned to never take any system for granted. Been in rooms with a ton of expensive gear that sounded meh, and been blown away by the simplest of set ups. 

Couch lol

@jl1ny 

I just saw your room layout. It seems that you have it backwards. Putting the coach as close as possible to the bar/stools and flipped around. Putting the speakers close to the southern wall would change your bass drastically. I honestly don't see how you will ever achieve any satisfactory sound with that much space behind the speakers. Everything seems backwards.

@rocray  Ha-ha! Oh but I have! Everything from a sofa with a pullout bed to an Air mattress. If I didn’t cherish sleep so much it woulda been done!

@jl1ny, it sounds like the REF 3A’s are keepers. Keep tinkering with placement,until you find a place where compromise is at a minimum. Especially since you know there will be a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. Another suggestion would be,sleep on the couch,and turn your bedroom into a listening room. ;-) 

This is going to sound nuts, but it's a true story.  Happened to me.  I was listening away as usual when I began to notice that the bass was becoming intrusive. Over time the speakers (KEF 104.2) became unlistenable; the bass just took over.  I began the laborious process of searching for new speakers. It wasn't going well. One day I noticed that the banana plugs coming from the amp (Threshold) were just a little bit loose.  I got new banana plugs that I could adjust to that they fit snugly into the amp's binding posts.  Guess what?  Problem solved!  I have zero insight as to why this worked but ,based upon my experience,you might want to revisit your connection problem theory.

@jjss49 ok, yes understood.
I PM'd you about your Delphi mkIII.
 

@rocray  I could leave today but I’ll make a run for it probably in 2-3 years. I’m in love with the build quality of these speakers, the Corian cabinets are incredible. I’d consider tucking them away until I move if I have to. In the right room with dual subs they would be insane and I already heard what they are capable of in a bigger room. The manufacturer still offers full service on them even though they are no longer in production so no worries there. Oh did I mention that I stole these for a fraction of the msrp ($4K+).

@kingsleuy here’s the general layout.

Sometimes in life,it is what it is.  @jl1ny, how long until you bug out of ny?  Maybe these aren’t the speakers for you right now?  I’ve heard really great things about Ref 3A.  However they seem to be a little fussier than the ProAc’s.  If you can live with the shortcomings until you move,cool and the gang. If not, nothing wrong with revisiting them down the road. 

I forgot to add.  Experiment.  Just put something reflective behind each speaker.

Let's see if I picture this correctly.

Studio apartment.  Cannot place them closer to the front wall.  Maybe could place them 2-3 feet closer to the front wall.  Would like to keep aesthetically pleasing and utilitarian...  

I picture the "front wall" as being the kitchen/dining area?  Is room rearrangement possible?

I had a studio apartment about 20x35 feet.  Entry, kitchen/dining, living area, sliding door, lanai, then10 story down.  My placement was reverse of yours.  My front wall was the sliding door.  My back was the kitchen/dining area. 

1- You are near field listening anyway, turn everything 90 degrees.  Use those walls.

2-Reverse like I had.  Have the kitchen behind you.

If rearrangement cannot be possible, maybe something like of a reflective room divider 2-3 feet behind your speakers.  Haaa, Just for picture imagery.  A pair of Magnepans. Or two. 

If those Ref 3A's are brand new you definitely need to give them at least 200 hours of break-in, maybe more. Best wishes.

They give you a break in time for these?

.

@larry5729
Larry, I do not have a dedicated room, my listening area is the back end of my living space and cannot be rearranged. The room is 15x12 (17x12 if you count the recess in the front wall). The speakers are 5.5 ft apart, soundstage is deep and wall to wall, higher than what my ProAcs were able to do. At this point I have no complaints other than the bass response which is, what it is with my set up in this room. Hopefully I can get my sub to pick up the slack.

Btw: the room is fairly well behaved. Recent addition of floor to ceiling corner bass traps in an offensive corner solved my biggest room issue.

@rixthetrick

sorry if i was being obtuse

by ’l-f’ -- i simply mean low frequency

------------------------------------------------------------------

to add to the discussion, i would remind the op and others here interested that

a) speaker placement for effective/optimal boundary reinforcement of low frequencies,

b) treating a room to address unwanted resonances/nodes and reflections

c) correctly integrating subwoofer(s)

may be somewhat inter-related but are different things, each with different benefits, solving for different deficiencies

Subs are fine. But you still need to dial in the room. What I’ve found is that when a room is treated well everything improves. Otherwise, you’ll have great bass but still have time smear. Don’t think you have it? Everyone has it to some extent. Get the room right and you get to the point where there’s more coherence than smear...achieving that is like finding tighter focus on a camera lens...you wonder how you ever thought what you were listening to before was even listenable. And, everything from top to bottom improves.

Focus, detail, imaging and bass tightness gets very good. Then you add subs. Or like me, you ditch your subs and just enjoy what you have.

How many times have I heard it and never listened: it’s the room...it’s the room...it’s the room. It took something acoustically profound happening to get me to understand it.

How big is your room?  Personally, I cannot understand why you would place them 5 feet from the back wall.  You must also have a narrow room.  5 feet apart seems also so close together to create a sound stage.  If you are experiencing a lack of bass, fill in the bass with a pair of good size REL subwoofers.  I have a pair of SHO's and they made a huge difference.

As most of us keep posting, YOUR ROOM is the most important variable in any sound system.  Otherwise, why would builders hire expensive experts when they build a concert hall?  Just go with the lowest bid and get on with it, right?

I have installed the best speakers (Maggies) in some rooms that will NEVER work for them for a number of reasons that most of you probably have run into over the years--size, shape, placement, furniture, etc. When that happens, either fix the room, IF YOU CAN, move the speakers (DUH!), or buy other speakers.

Like drag racing, once you plug in the numbers, that's the best you are going to do since you can't "beat" physics.  Same with audio.  Once you have done everything possible to fix the issues, you have to move on.  Physics is physics, sorry to say, even in today's "science ain't never done nuttin' for me" world.

Cheers!

@pesky_wabbit 

You ain’t kiddin! If your familiar with Rel settings, my ProAcs are xover 6 clicks and 11 clicks of gain. So far with these Ref 3A’s I had to bump it up to 12 clicks on the xover and 18 on the gain and I’m still not done dialing it in. Seriously anorexic! 
 

@sandthemall  I had them completely wrong. The manufacturer recommended using a speaker to listening distance ratio of 1 to 1.2 with no toe in. So I had to push them away as far as I could and bring them closer together with no toe in. This really made a substantial difference but unfortunately the bass only slightly improved. The manufacturer told me that the best bass response requires 3ft distance off the wall. 
 

@holmz Good find! Thanks for this.

l-f reinforcement

@jjss49 - I Googled it, I'm not that lazy to not bother to look, but I couldn't find it, please elaborate?
You're not talking about HAAS effect are you?