Garth Powell on Why Audioquest does not make AC Regenerators

@tvad Thanks so much for your comments. I always perk up when I see you posting. Your good ears are only matched by your good sense and gentility. When you speak, I listen, note, and investigate what you report has worked for you. 

I see Garth as partly right. He knows much about where noise comes from and how it effects our listening experience but honestly, his solution with Niagara works for a lot of systems but not all setups. Shunyata Denali v2 worked out really phenomenal for me. One piece of kit does not solve every situation. 
tvad, bless you, always so thoughtful and kind. Regretfully, I could not have unpacked that with such finesse.
Who says that as we get older, we hear less? Why I can’t believe all the new crap I’m hearing on this thread alone. So perhaps I should ditch all my gear that allows a power chord or conditioner to improve my listening experience… or just quit listening to all this distortion and put another record on, ah?

Geez!

What ya got pardner?  Put out what ya proposing for all to see.

snratio"Don’t think something not making sense has stopped Audioquest before. Just sour grapes that didn’t see the market. Anyone want to take a side bet on them making one in the future?"

How much would you like to wager let’s make it worthwhile and in USD.

Don't think something not making sense has stopped Audioquest before. Just sour grapes that didn't see the market. Anyone want to take a side bet on them making one in the future?

@tvad

hang in there with us who try to keep this forum alive with its intended purpose

it is so unfortunate that it seems to be in fashion to be ugly, crass, rude, ignorant and mean in online discourse

@tvad, $1K for a 7 outlet power strip is pretty steep. I got a real nice 10 outlet one for $54.00, with yellow outlets no less. Very cool.

Very cool indeed. I have read your comments over the past couple of years. You appear to have a very nice, carefully assembled system. Congratulations.

I have been an Audiogon member since 2003. I generally try to be helpful. I try only to mention and discuss gear I own, or that I have auditioned. I have good ears. My early professional career was partly built upon my listening skills and hearing acuity.

This site was once robust with useful discussion about audio from dozens of active audiophiles. Members shared experiences, and yes, sometimes discussions became contentious, but there was seldom the level of nastiness that exists on this site today. Most of those members have long stopped participating.

I spent nearly two months in early 2020 deleting every comment I ever made over 17 years: 10,000+ comments and 84 threads. I decided I wanted to wipe my Audiogon history clean. Yet, here I am. Participating. Trying to find some value in the forum content. There is some.

It’s hard to generate enthusiasm to continue contributing when I read certain comments. Yours is a perfect example.

Y'all going to provide that measurable repeatable documents or you just bustin on Mijostyn because of what he wrote. I would certainly like to see what ya got to back up your statement. I think everyone else would too.

mijostyn"I hate to be a PITA but in a controlled AB test I seriously doubt anyone would hear a difference with any of these"

Before encouraging, suggesting, or demanding a blind test why don't you just listen these devices produce definite, measureable, repeatable differences so I am not sure what you're problem is of course all of you're equipment is "perfect" I am sure! 

I hate to be a PITA but in a controlled AB test I seriously doubt anyone would hear a difference with any of these. If you can tell the difference then one or more of your pieces has a weak power supply. You should identify that piece and replace it. Can battery power supplies be useful? Sure, in very low level power devices like phono stages where noise levels are critical. Preamps maybe. Amplifiers get more complicated and I think the power supply of the amp should be purpose designed to run with a battery. As a example, large capacitors are not needed at all. The battery is in reality a huge capacitor! It's power just has to be regulated. An amplifier would require a lot of battery which is probably the reason it is not done. Channel D's phono stages are run with auto charging batteries.  
@tvad, $1K for a 7 outlet power strip is pretty steep. I got a real nice 10 outlet one for $54.00, with yellow outlets no less. Very cool. 

When I purchased and installed my first AudioQuest Niagara 1200 conditioner (with an AudioQuest NRG4 power cord), the improvement was immediately apparent. It took no time to determine it was a worthwhile purchase.

Prior to the AudioQuest, I had owned or auditioned Shunyata, Synergistic Research, PS Audio, Bybee, CorePower and Alan Maher power conditioning products. They all produced some degree of positive change, but none were as dramatic as the Niagara 1200.

Preferred the Chang Lightspeed’s over the Audioquest Niagara’s myself. Bought 2, had myself some A/B testing session and returned the Niagara 7000. Never tried a power regenerator before though. But would really like to try several of Bryston’s products.

Appreciate hearing people's experiences. I've watched more than a few of Paul's videos on the regenerator. If I am remembering accurately, he basically says don't use a conditioner -- just use their regenerator. Of course he wants to sell them, but I think his videos are popular because he seems to bring a lot of objective engineering knowledge into his videos. So, as a novice, on the one hand I hear that some conditioners are different or even better than regenerators. On the other hand, I hear Paul saying, the regenerator is the only way to go. The idea of trying both is a fairly onerous experiment, given how much these can cost, how hard to ship, and how hard to try them side by side. 

For myself I have owned a  ps audio power plant regenerate. I  now have a Audioquest 5000 conditioner. I was able to A/B both of them. For my electric grid the Audioquest 5000 worked best. 

Both products (Niagara and Line/Power regenerator) have their place within the Audiophile community. I have spent time with both offerings.
Each are excellent in a special way. Prospective buyers must audition these products for best outcome. Garth and Paul, respectively, have different disciplines. Trust your own ears.

Happy Listening!

kingbarbuda,
Can you describe the differences in sound quality between the AQ Niagara 5000 and PSA Power Plant 20?  On the video, Garth mainly talks about the superior power delivery from AQ vs AC regenerator.  But Mike Fremer a few months ago in Stereophile described the gross distortion from his power switch for his house generator.  His AQ Niagara 7000 did little to restore his pure sound, but the PSA Power Plants 20 and 15 did. This implies that for serious wall distortion, AC regeneration is superior.  My priority is not macro power delivery--I want clarity by minimizing low level micro distortion from RFI noise.  Paul McGowan and many users have noted wall AC distortion at 3% or more, which is reduced to 0.1% by the PSA regenerators.  Perhaps Fremer was dealing with very high 10% distortion.  If listeners are in a suburban/rural area, maybe they have very low distortion, so the AC regenerator might do little.

At 5:something, when he covers his mouth is the best part of the video. Blathering, opinionated idiot. AC regenerator Ir not? Not the point here. 

Audioguy85, I have a Furman UPS and I have to say they build fine equipment.

@mitch2, I think the vast majority of people would do just fine without anything. The money would be better spent on upgrading speakers and amplifiers or getting subwoofers. If you really want to enter a whole new world of high fidelity get a DEQX HDP-5 and a Dayton OmniMic. Last night I was demonstrating my system to my son in law. I was demonstrating what the TacT does (besides burning up loudspeakers) and I flipped it to bypass. I had not done this since I finished getting everything tuned up. The difference was so shocking I thought something was wrong. I started checking everything, It couldn't sound that bad? Flipped correction back in, wonderful. I had been listening to it over a month for hours at a time, for days at a time and had gotten so use to the Sound Labs performing at their best I had totally forgotten what the system sounded like in the beginning. The immediate switch was a real jolt. I am not prone to superlatives. When I hear them I immediately think the person is full of it. Maybe I am but, this was something else. 

I owned a Bryston BIT20, and got caught up in the power regeneration concept....and sold the BIT20 for a PS Audio P10 regenerator.  Turns out my power was pretty clean to begin with. Sold the P10 and bought another Bryston BIT20.  
The BIT20 makes a massive improvment to overall system performance.  I didnt have both the Bryston and PS Audio on hand at the same to A/B...but in my brain, the BIT20 is the winner.  And product quality is top notch.  

@mijostyn - I have a similar connection scheme with similar results, low/no noise and great dynamics.  Dedicated lines for two amps and a third dedicated line to an Isoclean filter for all the front-end stuff.  No regenerators, etc.  Maybe I am lucky not to live in a big city or somewhere else with crappy power, but never understood the need for these things.

I like my niagara 1200 and my Furman pst-8, both designed by Garth Powell. Great quality for not a lot of money.

A regenerator is a rectifier that feeds an inverter with a lot of capacitance in between. Many companies make rectifiers and many make inverters. 

Any regenerator can be matched by most full sine wave battery power stations available on the market today … for a fraction of the cost. The difference going from filtered mains to battery was nothing short of dramatic.

My buddy hates ComCrap and prefers ATT. I hate ATT and prefer Comcrap. We can joke about it, to each his own. 
All I know is more people that try ATT around here drop them. But they don't exhibit neurosis.
Tests and members have shown both methods to be equal but different. The rest is sales pitch.

I corresponded with Garth many times regarding the Niagara 5000 and 7000. I wound up buying P.I. Audio's UberBuss w/ Standard and Digi Buss outlets.

I sold my AQ Niagara 5000 and replaced it with a PS Audio PowerPlant P20. I also have connected to that a Shunyata power strip isolated connected to give me more outlets and outlets distant, sort-of, from the P20. I couldn’t be happier with the P20. Connected to them are a pair of Bryston 28B3 moniblocks via AQ Tornado HC power cables. 
On my other system I have a PS Audio PowerPlant P12 connected to that is an AQ Niagara 1200. Amp cables are either another AQ Tornado HC or when using monoblocks, Shunyata Delta NRs. 
I think PS Audio and Audioquest both make good gear. I use both per the above. Just pick the right tool from the right company for the job. Lastly, PS Audio also sells AQ cables (maybe AQ gear too, if you ask your PS Audio rep?). 

I'm happy with my Thor PS10 smart power station with its pure sine wave output.

I use the iFi Audio Power Station. It is fantastic.

First of all, who wants to waste money buying equipment that does not work well. Second of all Garth is absolutely right although his explanation was not particularly lucid. I personally will not buy any PS Audio equipment. Not in the least bit interested. IMHO they sell way to much voodoo witchcraft and unnecessary complexity.

Good equipment does not require power cleaning, regeneration or management of any kind. Their power supplies take care of all of that. This is just lay instinct run amuck. 
I do not use any of it. My system is dead quiet. On the phono stage, with the volume turned all the way up you can hear a slight hiss with your ear up against the speaker. The system will play louder than I can bear to hear it with outstanding dynamics. My amplifiers can even burn up expensive loudspeakers. No lack of power here. In short my system performs at the highest levels with the front end all plugged into the same power strip. The amps have their own lines. I have a whole house surge protector and my very own lawn wart transformer to protect the neighbors from my workshop. I don't know why but, it was forced on me. It is not like the lights dim whenever I turn on my thickness planer.(10 HP 3 phase.)

I’ve owned and currently own PS Audio’s P300(2) and P600 AC regenerator’s and prefer the older series that utilized balanced power on the output, sounding much better than their later series IMHO in a direct comparison. One has to remember not to exceed 70% of a AC regenerators output capacity or risk compression and a thinning of the sound. I prefer to use AC regenerators for source components and high current balanced power for amps and subs.

I also own the Audioquest Niagra 1200 conditioner in my GF’s system and use it in conjunction with a PS Audio P300 regenerator with very good results. Got the 1200 on a trial basis and didn’t return it as it is quite effective in that system

Yes, Garth of Audioquest knows what he is doing having been at Furman power for many years and then to AQ where he/they are producing great products. The Niagra 7000 uses balanced power for the source components if I’m not mistaken and their DBS biased transformer is quite innovative/impressive.

As to the OP's question of who makes AC regenerators, there is of course PS Audio then Kemp electronics and Walkers turntable motor controller is a low wattage AC Regenerator with custom waveform synthesis. Monarchy Audio also makes an AC Regenerator. I have one but it went wonky on me where it wouldn't hold the voltage stable. 

Here is the Kemp link:  http://www.kempelektroniks.nl/en/235/kemp-elektroniks/products/power-regenerator/power-station-75

Here is the Monarchy link: http://www.monarchy-audio.com/AC_Regen_frm_Main.htm

tablejockey,
Yes, that is the best way, however, this is difficult to do. This is why experience from actual users of both pieces is important.

ozzy

Just another reason to try both and letting one's ears decide if either is worth the expense.

AC regen(PS PP) seems to work in my setup.

All I can add is I owned a PS- P10 regenerator and sold it once I tried the Audioquest Niagara 7000.
The Niagara provides way more dynamics, especially when powering amps.
The PS cleans up the AC but is anemic compared to the Niagara.
Garth knows what he is doing.

ozzy