“Something I would strongly consider first is just the upgraded bearing and the stock platter. The sound is so damned fun that way. Lively, dynamic, toe-tapping fun. ”
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Garrard 301 - Project
I have been contemplating for a while which turntable to pursue given so many choices. Every time I look around, I just can’t help drooling over a fully restored Garrard 301 or 401. Aside from being an idler-drive, I keep reading and hearing about their unique ability to reproduce music with its sense of drive and impact thus making them very desirable to own. And with available meticulous restoration services and gorgeous plinth options, what’s not to like, right!
Would you please share your experience, good and pitfalls (if any) with a restored Garrard 301 to avoid before I go down this path.
And what about the IEC inlet and power cord, would they be of any significance. My two choices would be Furutech FI-09 NCF or FI-06 (G) inlets.
I have already purchased a Reed 3P Cocobolo 10.5” with Finewire C37+Cryo tonearm/interconnect phono cable with KLEI RCA plugs option.
Still exploring Cart Options, so please feel free to share your choice of cart with Garrard 301 or 401.
And lastly, I would like to extend my gratitude to @fsonicsmith, @noromance @mdalton for the inspiration.
221 responses Add your response
It has been a few years since I have had any interaction with Steve Dobbins. I am sure he sources the platter and it is very likely still available. Something I would strongly consider first is just the upgraded bearing and the stock platter. The sound is so damned fun that way. Lively, dynamic, toe-tapping fun. |
Congratulations on Koetsu Urushi Black. That’s a beautiful cart! As Koetsu being no longer made, I approached my purchase for the history and the legacy. Thought long and hard about one of the stone bodies cart but couldn’t quite extend the budget. I believe, Rosewood Sig. Platimum holds the sweet spot in Koetsu hierarchy. Thanks for your recommendation on book (already ordered through Amazon) and footers. Speaking of mats, check out Torque’s CU2900 Copper Mat. Great suggestion on dust cover. I went with 2 arms plinth version. The communication was bit of a challenge due language barrier, I can ask for “extra” width but that may not be possible as they start the work on plinth right away.
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@pindac dear fellow.. you had me at “ break for lunch “… Today is a good day to contemplate the math or not underlying audio ( and other decisions ) by considering the obvious ( at least to this dullard Economist ) findings of Daniel Kahneman ; Thinking Fast and Slow…. Best to all in music….. |
@tomic601 As I have made it known endlessly. I travel, I meet, I experience, I comment only (to the best of my ability ) on experiences encountered only. If I add anything beyond experience had (to the best of my ability), it will be the interpretation of a description given from an individual 'known' and who I have a lot of trust in on the subject of Audio. I do the basics of the Math Pretty well, and have access to all the Tools available to be used on the internet to make the math occasionally required easier. Math, what does it really mean to a Newbie, or in many cases to the individuals with a long term interest in audio ? Most are trusting in others and allow the Math to be another's concern. Is a audio enthusiast really lacking in understanding and not to be taken serious if they are not presenting the Math behind decisions made/to be made. Does a 10 years old - 40 years old TT really perform to the measured spec offered at the time of new? Does a Cart' with a usage life really perform to the measured Spec' from when it left the manufacturers ? Does a Tonearm living in a typical environment for a period of time, function exactly as the design was intended to do so ? All the so called Diehards, quoting all forms of Math don't actually know what they own. I am sticking close to those who do know what they own, and on a simple description can request a chance to investigate something that may have changed, the only math required being the calculation of the round trip. Basic description of experiences had, and influences resulting from experiences had, are the type of info that I wholeheartedly sense is what appeals to the larger audio enthusiast group. It is these who I post for in a Thread. Certainly not the stagnated, who are very low in activity for their inquisitive ventures. As said on many occasions, I gave up on the 'sole locked away in a room listener type', way too many years ago. To consider this notion today is seen to have an only outcome that diminishes opportunity to encounter experiences and removes opportunity to attain, the very important grounding in what is valuable and worthwhile maintaining and what is a 'se défausser'. |
During the past weekend, I was finally able to add a SS Platter to a SP10 MkII. The demo' was carried out in the home of the individual who has won over many converts to adopting the work undertaken on the SP10 MkII and their Bespoke design for a Tonearm. The SP10 used has a bespoke design being used for the Platter Spindle Bearing and also has a electronics modification that has a improved control in comparison to the original design for the stability of speed. Panzerholz is the TT's Plinth with a P'holz Sub Plinth. Three individuals in the Room using equipment each are very familiar with in relation to TT>Tonearm>Phonostage>Speakers. New Class D Power Amp's were in use, which I immediately picked up on had a impact on the Soundstage, there was the perception of a wider and deeper volume being filled. The SS Platter (7Kg) with no damping was put into service after the first recess for Lunch. A few repeat Tracks were agreed to be replayed and as I was in the hotspot, I was immediately to become aware of the difference the SS Platter has on the presentation. With the changes detected, I gave up my seat to the System owner who worked their way through a few familiar Tracks. The other attendee also had the hotspot for their choice of Tracks as well. Interesting Outcome, I felt the Mid's and Highs were accentuated in a way that was not in coherence with the lower frequencies. The system owner felt the lower frequencies were not only subdued, but also subtly smeared and lost the clean edge and fast decay usually present. The other attendee felt the Mat should be tried out with a Valve Amplification as well, as the Bass might benefit. The system owner has heard enough to convince them that a Damping will bring more to the party and give the Mat a better Interface on the TT. Moral of the Story, Platters can't be assessed as a verbal exchange, the experience has to be had, especially in a environment where much info is already known about the systems performance without the additional ancillary. As for exchanges of a Platter Spindle Bearing to a design using modern concepts and materials not used by the original manufacturer, such as a Thermoplastic with low coefficient of friction. I can say go for it, there is much improvement to be found.
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OP, Congrats on making a decision, should be a winner! The custom plinths are gorgeous. Are you going for one or two tonearms? Me, almost done reading the Jazz Encylopedia, more Mono LP’s are in my future! Personally, if they didn't begin making it, I would ask the maker to increase the 2 arm plinth just enough to fit a rectangular dust cover on/around the tonearms when in their rests, leaving some wood and the 4 curved corners outside of the cover.. 'on' the plinth keeps the dust cover smaller and lighter than covering the whole plinth. In any case, I’m sure you will love it. |
@tomic601 Jim, I may have taken liberty with the actuality of the Graveyard! It is conceptual in intent. Korf were good enough to accept the return. As was Audio Sensibility. I do have the SPH copper platter mat among the usual assortment of tubes, cables, old turntables, amps, etc. |
what a cool and interesting thread….even civil… i even enjoy the lew / Pindac banter jousting… Congrats on the Koetsu. I’ve recently made similar plunge w Urushi Black. I also recommend buying the excellent book on the art on the namesake : The Arts of Honami Koetsu: Japanese Renaissance Master A positive vote for the @slaw MyMat….. again as Brian points out IF you must or want one… Hopefully Steve has a few left. IMO and experience, your CORE rack should be excellent. I use HRS Vortex footers… but under a bespoke plinth for a DD Denon….aghast… Finally, I keep…. waiting for the leavings from the @noromance graveyard SALE…. ha I would like first right of refusal on that near worthless, inferior, KORF headshell….. |
“I’m inferring from the sable color that you are buying your 301 from Matthew Taylor. ” Correct. As per my dealer, I am getting a fully restored 301. I entrusted my dealer for this project. He has helped shaped my system for past 5 years. He has been nothing short of a blessing in my journey to achieve an exemplary listening experience. As far as plinth goes, I went with Piano Walnut Burl finish. I tried to post the link but got blocked. If you scroll up, @elliottbnewcombjr posted a link to the eBay seller. |
@lalitk I’m inferring from the sable color that you are buying your 301 from Matthew Taylor. Re virgin stock units, he’s been supplying Audiosilente idlers on newer refurbished units. Do you know if yours will have one fitted? I would also check with him to ensure both upper AND lower idler bearings are replaced. What plinth did you go for? Apologies if you’ve already stated it above. |
Thanks, my tone arm is Reed 3P - 10.5” with Cocobolo arm wand. I thought about aftermarket bearing and platter but my dealer suggested that I should hear ‘stock’ 301 first and then start tweaking the TT with aftermarket parts. The upgrade like bearing appears to be a no brainer. I do not know at this time how much a platter would enhance the performance. Is Dobbins platter still available or is it pretty much unobtainable? |
The Classic HiFi UK brass 301 bearing is also much larger, perhaps not as large but close and it is built to handle the 12kg brass platter that Ray offers. That said, I bought both and as stated above prefer the Dobbins (not "Dobbs", may bad) platter which is alloy topped with a layer of copper. |
@lalitk Congrats on that. I saw your comment on mulveling's post. What arm are you using? |
I am counting on it, Jim @jperry |
The Shindo plattter comes with a special platter mat. The bad news is Shindo does’t sell the platter/bearing other than as part of a turntable anymore. I think You would need to source the platter/bearing on the used market. They used to sell the platter/bearing as a separate item I’m excited to ee your Garard 301 journey, so please continue to update Jim Perry
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Also, before I upgraded to the Shindo platter I was using the SPEC mat on the stock platter with great results IMO. https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/spec-analog-disc-sheet-ap-ud1-tt-mat-anyone-else-have-this |
If you could win the Footers in the Link for about $180, you will be very happy. These are the footers I have used for years under heavy TT's until Solid Tech - 'Feet of Silence' , took their place under a much lighter in weight DD TT. These are from my side thoroughly recommended for Source, Amp' and Speaker It was these that made such an impression on a friend under their speakers, they went the route of Townshend Podiums at a substantially increase in cost. https://www.fromjapan.co.jp/japan/en/auction/yahoo/input/1129165914/
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@lalitk , I use Nordost Sortfut under my 301. I had Stillpoints but needed more clearance for the Shindo bearing. Can’t comment on the sound difference because Nordost and Shindo were installed at the same time |
Update: Plinth has been ordered and it comes with M6 threaded nuts, no feet. I got one recommendation so far for Stillpoints footers. Are there any other footers that I should consider that would help decouple and drain any unwanted energy. I would love to install the TT on a wall mounted shelf but that is not an option. I am also considering Seismic Pods from Townshend Audio. Any other suggestions are welcomed! |
@pindac It would be wonderful to see photos. Please consider setting up an entry in Virtual Systems, or by the utilization of a preferred photographic sharing utility. One can describe beauty in endless prose but beholding the vision is the revelation. |
@noromance Similar experiments have been done with naked chassis on numerous TT's, even when my friend got their SP10 R, there was a range of Prop's trialed to eke the sound from it that was a betterment. My continuous experiences of using Plinth Materials and experiencing Plith Matrilas has been run in conjunction with working with the overall supporting structure for the support of the Source and System. I have worked from the Floor Upwards and also having industrial type Gallows Bracket fastened to the Walls as a Suspended Structure. The Gallows Brackets has served as a Shelve Support and also an anchor point to suspend shelves from on O Rings, Chain, and Rope. The Suspended Set Up nor the Shelve Support was an attractive option to be used with the Vinyl Source, but complimented CDP > DAC very well. The Vinyl Source from my experiences works at it very best in my listening environment when mounted on a Multi Tier Support Structure, inclusive of Highly Compressed Foam, Steel Plates, Granite as the Sub Base and this is then built of as the mount for the Bespoke Produced Hard Wood Rack that has spring suspension as footers, with a variety of Isolation devices used for under each Shelve. The Racks support for the Vinyl Source is a further multi tier support structure that has been optimised over the years to suit a variety of TT's in varying Plinth Materials. I do believe I got a very attractive sonic from Granite when it was a preferred material, especially when I found materials that was able to keep it in a state of suspension and not compressing to become hard. I found a 40m Diameter dense closed cell round Backing Rod used for Silicone Applications ideal for this role as a Footer for a 9 Stone of Granite Plinth. It is trimmable as well to assist with the bulk of the leveling requirement. The individual who now owns the 401 and Granite Plinth has not got the same from it as I did, even though it sits on the Backing Rod I gave the owner. As for the reason who knows. It might be there is not a understructure like mine used to support it, or the new environment needs different structure very different from mine and the one presently in use ? The 401 owner has done much better with various designs of Wood Board as a Plinth Structure. On one occasion I informed the 401 owner, but in relation to their GL 75's that there is a colouration detectable that is most likely caused by the Sub Support in use. I know how tidy a GL75 can sound as a typical GL75 and as a PTP Design, as I have experience with both through ownership. The 401 owner invited me back to show me how much their TT's had been tidied up, on this occasion I took my Sub Plinth and Stacked Footer assembly with me to give them a demo' and loan. Following their new under TT support demo' the items were swapped out for my own, in this environment they worked superbly, the System owners Jaw was agape😦. During the loan, my devices were plagiarised for their own continued use. The Environment for a TT set up and the Support Structure in use are extremely important to having the Vinyl Source optimised for performance as a set up. A TT will produce a sound and music that is a enjoyable experience in any environment, think of all the Parties a TT has been the source for the music being danced or head banged to. As an audio enthusiast and having learned over many years, things worthy of consideration, I have adopted an active approach, that attempts to address some of the things that are best avoided. I do think I have removed or at worst diminished unwanted influences to the place they are not detected as detrimental to the signal being produced by the styli's interface within the groove. As it is known, Densified Wood as a Support Structure, is where my attention is now placed. My Bespoke Produced Rack, which is very long time owned will most likely become a Hybrid with this material, especially as a Cap attached to the Base of the Legs to house the Spring Suspension and as replacement for the used Ash Wood for Frame Bracing / Shelve Supports. |
@pindac Back in the 80s, we had a Garrard 301 motor unit mounted on four toilet rolls. With a Grace 707 arm. It sounded better than sitting on granite. Perhaps the roll of paper acted as very fine layers of wood. |
For the record, my making a post is not always an attempt at responding to a post from another. Likewise, my showing a commonly found evidence that a particular individual is varied in their assertions made and stand taken, is also not my responding to an individuals post. What might or might not prove to be of interest, is that the particular evidence used, is one that is 14 years old. The use of Dreary as a description does seem to be fitting for more than one reason when referring to my post. I have made it known, I am not a lock oneself away in a room individual a their participation in Audio as a interest. I get out and take part in a spread wide social network. As a result of my willingness to meet others, I've been exposed to a wide range of Plinth Designs. Where I have been seated in front of and receiving demo's of the fashionable materials for Plinths used for Idler Drive TT's from the 90's and 00's (Granite, Slate and well thought out timber structures are all met in used as a Plinth Structure being demonstrated, of which I chose Granite). The 10's and now in the 20's, have introduced myself to new concepts (very advanced Timber Structures with designs included to aid damping, Increased Compression Wood Based Boards and Highly Compressed Foam Based Boards Polybentonite Resin, Highly Compressed Bamboo and Densified Wood. There is no desire to return to any material experienced prior to my usage of a Densified Wood as a material, even though my experience of Highly Compressed Bamboo on a Garrard 401 has been very impressive and indelible as a memory, the best 401 met to date as my assessment. As for materials I am keeping on, the next will be a Mycelium based product, hopefully all Organic in its origin and able to compete with substances coming from Chemical or Petrochemical origins. Formula One already has a secretive materiel that is very much aligned to this new philosophy. The same person who has received material Samples from me for testing, that are not commonly met materials, and the same person who over the Years been supplying Data on a vast range of materials used in audio. The same person who has in 'certain circles' become known as pretty much the Godfather of Panzerholz through the Testing and Data they supplied many many years ago, will receive from myself new samples of new discovered materials for testing. I am not an expert, I don't have to be, I receive good description of Data from those that really know. That when contemplated by the Layman, helps making decisions to make a change a no brainier, to follow up on the idea to be inquisitive and learn what is on offer. There is an amount of Threads to be found, with a substantial amount of Posts on Spindle Weights, Spindle Clamps and Mats. My input will be I have found through many trials, what I class as suitable to my own unique preferences. Yours will be a Journey of many stops with trials and discoveries to be met or a one stop journey where the alighting the interest ends quickly, I strongly recommend the former. |
@lalitk Hmmm, they lost me at loss of detail. See more comments on sound here
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@lalitk Possibly predictably, I’m not a fan of damping or locking things down. Listening without sounds more open and free. You can buy a reasonable device on Amazon for $27 which looks great but doesn’t add anything. I know. It’s in the graveyard. PS Jeff's a great guy. |
Pindac, I thought you were never going to respond again to one of my posts? How dreary that you cannot resist. First, I never said slate was superior to Panzerholz. Second, neither OMA nor the British company to whom you refer was first to use slate to make a plinth. The idea goes back to the early 90s at least, but then again, you dislike slate so why bring it up? Also, I do recall the British slate plinths (can't recall who made them); they were insubstantial compared to the OMA products. Funnily enough, Jonathan Weiss said on his website, about 15-20 years ago, that he vehemently disliked me for commissioning my own PA slate plinths (he used more colorful language), using material from the same quarry he uses. That was purely by chance; I had no prior idea where he was getting his slate. Nevertheless, I was not and probably am not welcome in his emporia (Brooklyn or PA), which doesn't faze me a bit. And finally, as I understand it you use a Peter Reinders Lenco turntable, which I believe has a Corian plinth. Who do you think supplied me with the program to have my Lenco plinth cut from PA slate? Answer: Peter Reinders, an exceptionally nice guy who acted in spite of OMA's objection. I used a waterjet operation in York, PA, to cut the plinths (for Denon DP80, Technics SP10s MK2 and 3, and Lenco) from slabs purchased in PA. At the time all this was occurring, slate was very much in fashion, and more to the point, the cost was much much less than the cost of purchasing a Panzerholz plinth for the SP10 Mk2 or Mk3 from Albert, who is another very nice person. And I needed to save the money. At the present moment, I have no doubt that Panzerholz or the like might be superior to slate, but I also have no doubt that slate is very good for the purpose, based on listening. |
@pindac I know who said it, obviously. I'm not sure it matters. This is not a trial by fire. 😉 I looked into using Panzerholz myself, having worked with plans and quotes with a respected builder. I may revisit.
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@pindac Indeed. Although, I have a graveyard of parts that came with big promises. The most recent rejected items were the Korf ceramic headshell, the SPF 1.2kg copper platter, and the Audio Sensibility OCC phono cable. This is not to say these fine items are not excellent in themselves; they just didn’t work for me.
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An interesting statement, I wonder who said it ? "And it's quite possible that Panzerholz is superior to slate; I haven't tried it. To be honest, the foregoing information about the difficulties of obtaining and working with Panzerholz just shows the wisdom of ordering a finished plinth from Albert." A clue maybe, A user of PA Slate maybe and one who bolsters their being a advocate by making it known, OMA proudly use PA slate. I would stand proud if I were doing very well out the realisation of plagiarizing a British Companies concept for a Plinth Product at $3K a purchase. |
@noromance I always state something along the lines of the experience encountered has been the one that most impressed and proved to be the one wanted to be maintained. There is no longer any want to revert to experiences previously had. Bringing in alternative materials carefully selected for the roles to be used has never failed to impress as a betterment when I have been party to the changes being made. I can say this for Wire, Types, Connector Types, Bearing Interfaces in both TT Platter Bearing and TA, TA Headshells and structure materials such as a Plinth or Sub Plinth.
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@lalitk More than welcome. Note that when you try an aftermarket component, you can always reverse the change. The reason many folks keep the new part is because it sounds better than what was there before.
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Thank you both for continuing to provide valuable insights on Garrard TT. I couldn’t agree with you anymore on exploiting the strengths of Garrard 301 or 401. That’s what my dealer has recommended, to start off with 301 fully restored to its original parts with a decent plinth. I would like to get a basic understanding of a Garrard TT sound before I start tempering with aftermarket bearing, platter and so on. I still need to figure out cart and phono options..lol! |
@lewm My days of Ping Pong with you are from this post onwards over, especially on the subject of your preferred plinth material, in relation to my ongoing interest in Plinth ,Materials, where I have for the present settled on a Phenolic Resin Impregnated Densified Wood Board as the Plinth Material. There are Links posted by myself for quite some time that shows the Damping - Dissipation Data for many materials selected for a Plinth and other Structures used in the field of audio. I will not be supplying these to you, that search is now for you to satisfy yourself. My two pennies worth, strongly suggests Slate Samples of same dimension from all over the World will measure at very closely to 0.017, which will have substantial Bounce Back as an inherent property. This is very different to your very Layman description of Slate Properties. Again if a Phenolic Resin Impregnated Densified Wood Board produced anywhere in the World, if the same dimension will measure similar, especially with 4.0 being the reading for a 4" x 4" x 1/2", which is substantially more attractive as a materials than all others known to be used for structural purposes in the field of audio. @noromance It is good to see your inquisitiveness has taken you to places where modern approaches are being adopted and the benefits are discovered. The SPH Bearing with the Non-Metal on Metal design is one I know very well, and one I was instrumental in having a Composite Spindle Design produced for, which a friend now has in use for their Idler Drive adventures. |
@fsonicsmith I completely understand where you are coming from. In fact, I agree with you. That’s why I have two in the main area—wood with original platter and slate with the other stuff. Note that I am using 401s with the better motor (for stereo) so torque may be less of an issue with a heavier platter. I use the PAC 20mm oversize aluminum platter on the slate with a SPH grease bearing. Far better soundstage and cleaner bass. Anyhow, I believe that the difference between a well-sorted wood, and a well-sorted slate unit is far less than a non-refurbished unit with an old SME arm on a poor support. Isn’t it all about getting the info from the grooves in the most musically satisfying manner possible? Steve |
What I have been trying to say, particularly with my Harbeth speaker enclosure analogy, is that in my very humble opinion trying to make a 301 sound "airy, transparent, neutral, fast" et al is trying to turn the 301 into something that it is not. Why would anyone take an Audi R8 and install a lift kit and all terrain tires on it? If you want airy, transparent, neutral, and fast, any number of current era TT designs deliver those qualities in spades. The 301 as a result of its design has a more relaxed truth of timbre and tone character. The powerful motor coupled with original very light platter also gives it "snap" to transient's and a strong sense of propulsiveness (my spell check denies that as being a word), but without sacrificing the relaxed overall touch and tone. Why not play to the strengths of the design rather than ameliorate them as if to mimic a modern sophisticated belt drive or DD table? In my case I did, largely out of blind luck and intuition, substitute a heavy duty all- brass bearing assembly and the Steve Dobbs alloy with copper top platter. At one point I was using the Classic HiFi brass platter that weighs 12kgs, nearly 25 lbs. https://www.classichifi-shop.co.uk/product/brass-platter-20-mm-oversize/ I much prefer the sound of the Dobbs platter. The heavier platter eliminated all sense of excitement to the sound. How can this be, one might ask? It is rotating at the very same speed and with all that inertia it ought to sound every bit as authoritative. I have no answer. Except that maybe just maybe the resonance of the all brass platter bouncing back through the LP and back to the stylus does something adverse to lively sound. And maybe just maybe all that mass and inertia can not overcome stylus drag and it's effects whereas letting the powerful motor exert itself through a relatively light platter overcomes stylus drag. And yet another factor is the inherent added friction of a very heavy platter on the bearing assembly. All any of us can do with the 301 is experiment. If a slate plinth mated with the 301 sounds the way you want it to sound I can not argue that you have made a bad choice. |
And your method for arriving at a numerical damping factor with plinth materials, Pindac? We also have to ask where is all this spurious energy coming from? Also keep in mind that European slate is different from Pennsylvania slate, just as PA slate is different from Vermont slate, etc. ( I’ve had SP10 mk2 plinths made of both. PA slate was better.) OMA proudly use PA slate and also natural hard woods from PA in their speakers. Slate is layered such that its energy dissipation in the plane parallel to the layers would be very different from its energy absorption perpendicular to that plane. There you would probably get more “bounce back “. But does it matter? What spurious energy is attacking the surface perpendicular to the plane of the layers? In the end also, slate provides lots of dead mass, which I think is beneficial. Finally it’s impossible to resolve the question by back and forth discussion. I built my plinths 10-15 years ago, I’m satisfied, and I’m not starting over with plinths. Typing on my bespoke cell phone made of densified wood. |