Garrard 301 - Project

Thanks for the mention lalitk.

As the photos in my profile show, I favor a large plinth, as large in all three dimensions as your rack can accommodate. Forgetting about any thought process that a massive plinth absorbs vibration, the real estate on the top allows for all arm lengths without a cantilevered arm mount hanging off of the edge of the plinth. 

Unfortunately it appears that Russ Collinson has moved on from plinth building. The alternatives for a quality plinth are pricey. Stay away from the two different plinth builders seemingly based in Muldovia seen on eBay. I have one sitting idle in by basement where it will likely remain.

The Reed arms are a bit tricky to mount because the mounting template supplied by Reed is confusing to use. You are going to need a bit of patience or the assistance of a Reed dealer to mount its P-S in such a way as that your cartridge can be optimally aligned. 

Your choice of rack for the deck will be critical. I use Symposium's rigid (non floating top) model. The rack should be massive, offer good isolation from vibration at the top shelf, and should offer leveling footers. 

The IEC and PC imho are not important. I have had no compatibility problems among a broad range of cartridges, currently a Lyra Etna SL and a VdH Crimson Strad XGW. 

I use Stillpointe footers under the plinth. Though more willing to be of assistance if you are buying something from him, Steve Dobbs (Xactaudio) is a great source of information. 

As I think I told you in a PM, I chose to go with an aftermarket heavy duty brass bearing from Ray of ClassicHifi in the UK. And that is despite the fact that my 301 came with a NOS grease bearing (which I have kept for later use one day). 

Slate is not optimum. Sorry but just true. 

Agree that having a concrete slab floor is preferable to being over a basement with floor joists. But most of us don't get to design our houses and listening rooms (though in my case I did) and many of us like having a full basement. 

Btw, if you get a speed control unit such as the LDA, remove the eddy brake. 

I have 3 TT s in PA slate and am very pleased with performance but I did not sample a wide variety of materials so would not claim slate is absolutely the best. So what do you prefer, fsonic?

Hi Lewm. I would love to claim that I have tried a slate plinth with either my TD124 or 301 but that would not be true. So when I responded above that it is not true that slate is optimum, I did so brashly and from trusted wisdom. That said, I went through a series of turntables starting in the early 2000's and then started focusing on idlers in the last fifteen. I have talked at length with many experts. I have experimented with several different wood plinths and with multiple platters on both of my idlers. Unfortunately our niche (idler drive turntables) within a niche hobby does not result in very much scientific analysis of matters such as vibration damping properties of alternating layers of birch vs. slate. If you do some research you will find some good threads on the Lenco Heaven site. Slate is not known for absorbing or damping motor vibration or any other vibration. Our lizard brains just assume that slate being heavy and massive it must be good for something like a plinth. 

I have no doubt that a Garrard 301/401 can sound very good mounted on a slate plinth. My unsupported belief is that the sound you will get is not consistent with the best characteristics of idlers. To draw an analogy, why would anyone take a Harbeth loudspeaker and convert the enclosure from wood to Magico-style alloy keeping everything else equal?

What I have been trying to say, particularly with my Harbeth speaker enclosure analogy, is that in my very humble opinion trying to make a 301 sound "airy, transparent, neutral, fast" et al is trying to turn the 301 into something that it is not. Why would anyone take an Audi R8 and install a lift kit and all terrain tires on it? If you want airy, transparent, neutral, and fast, any number of current era TT designs deliver those qualities in spades.

The 301 as a result of its design has a more relaxed truth of timbre and tone character. The powerful motor coupled with original very light platter also gives it "snap" to transient's and a strong sense of propulsiveness (my spell check denies that as being a word), but without sacrificing the relaxed overall touch and tone. 

Why not play to the strengths of the design rather than ameliorate them as if to mimic a modern sophisticated belt drive or DD table? 

In my case I did, largely out of blind luck and intuition, substitute a heavy duty all- brass bearing assembly and the Steve Dobbs alloy with copper top platter. At one point I was using the Classic HiFi brass platter that weighs 12kgs, nearly 25 lbs. 

https://www.classichifi-shop.co.uk/product/brass-platter-20-mm-oversize/

I much prefer the sound of the Dobbs platter. The heavier platter eliminated all sense of excitement to the sound. How can this be, one might ask? It is rotating at the very same speed and with all that inertia it ought to sound every bit as authoritative. I have no answer. Except that maybe just maybe the resonance of the all brass platter bouncing back through the LP and back to the stylus does something adverse to lively sound. And maybe just maybe all that mass and inertia can not overcome stylus drag and it's effects whereas letting the powerful motor exert itself through a relatively light platter overcomes stylus drag. 

And yet another factor is the inherent added friction of a very heavy platter on the bearing assembly. 

All any of us can do with the 301 is experiment. If a slate plinth mated with the 301 sounds the way you want it to sound I can not argue that you have made a bad choice. 

I think most bearing are about the same size. 
 

the Shindo is very large. There is a stock v Shindo picture in my virtual system

The Classic HiFi UK brass 301 bearing is also much larger, perhaps not as large but close and it is built to handle the 12kg brass platter that Ray offers. That said, I bought both and as stated above prefer the Dobbins (not "Dobbs", may bad) platter which is alloy topped with a layer of copper. 

@fsonicsmith

I thought about aftermarket bearing and platter but my dealer suggested that I should hear ‘stock’ 301 first and then start tweaking the TT with aftermarket parts. The upgrade like bearing appears to be a no brainer. I do not know at this time how much a platter would enhance the performance. Is Dobbins platter still available or is it pretty much unobtainable?

It has been a few years since I have had any interaction with Steve Dobbins. I am sure he sources the platter and it is very likely still available. Something I would strongly consider first is just the upgraded bearing and the stock platter. The sound is so damned fun that way. Lively, dynamic, toe-tapping fun. 

@lalitk 

You have a beautiful and well thought out system. Your 301 motor unit has been pristinely restored. I could re-read this thread from beginning to end to find out for myself but I will just ask-where did you source it? I am guessing Woodsong or Classic Hi-Fi UK.

I am bit puzzled that you have a 301 motor unit and a 401 platter. To the best of my knowledge no 301 model was ever produced with a strobe lamp installed and only at some point after the 401 was introduced was a strobed platter offered as an option with a 301 during a short period in which both were in production, but again, without any strobe light retro-fit option. This is a minor detail of no significance; my own grease-bearing 301 has been Frankensteined with an aftermarket heavy duty bearing and a Dobbins platter as mentioned by me earlier in this thread. 

I will again warn you that mounting the 3P is a very difficult proposition if you have no prior experience. Why such an advanced engineer as Vindmantas Triukas would provide such a misleading mounting template with his arms is a mystery. I mounted my second 3P myself but I had to remount it a second time, moving the arm base slightly forward to get into the zone where a typical cartridge could be mounted at optimal overhang. The integral headshells offer rather short cart mounting slots which only aggravates the situation. In this respect that I agree that having rotating leaf type mounting shelves is nice, but at the expense of esthetics, stability, and freedom from unwanted resonance. 

And I will again highly recommend that you look into an outboard power supply designed for induction motors to smooth out the motor operation. 

@dover I think I said as much with "To the best of my knowledge no 301 model was ever produced with a strobe lamp installed and only at some point after the 401 was introduced was a strobed platter offered as an option with a 301 during a short period in which both were in production, but again, without any strobe light retro-fit option"

My mistake was to call it a "401 platter". I admit to not knowing the strobed platter option for the 301 was a different platter than the 401. 

I used to own this book-I should have kept it. After reading it cover to cover I gave my copy to Greg Metz. 

@noromance @jperry @mdalton @fsonicsmith 

301 is up and running for past 6 days. It does sound pretty darn good with $15K tonearm/cart combo. Love the classic industrial appearance. I am still getting acclimated with its strengths and flaws in stock form and maybe jumping the gun here but I feel this is not a TT that sounds best in its stock form. The inherent vibration or energy from motor and plinth was out of control. I got it tamed for most part by isolating the plinth with IsoAcoustics mini pucks. I realize, a better isolation solution is probably the next step but what can or should do next to eliminate or reduce inherent vibrations. Perhaps, a aftermarket bearing, platter, idler wheel or even a better, denser plinth. 

Appreciate your input. 

It is incredibly difficult to assist in this situation. It is similar to addressing a hum problem someone is having with their electronics. Are you certain the problem is vibration from the motor? How did you determine that? Yes, the 301 motor is not the smoothest of all motors but if properly rebuilt it should not be causing a problem with SQ. As I have written before a specially designed PSU like the LDA (Long Dog Audio) will help. 

My best advice right now is similar to that given when there is a hum problem-start by eliminating things from your system. First and foremost should be your subs. IMHO, subwoofers and turntables simply don't play well together absent Herculean solutions such as placing the turntable in a separate room. 

My best guess-from afar-is that what you perceive to be motor induced vibration is actually some other form of distortion. Though your plinth is not the one I would have selected, it is very unlikely to be the problem. You don't need a fancy plinth for a 301 to sound great. I would instead focus on these things in this order;

1) Subs-remove and then if problem goes away, reposition or turn off when playing vinyl. 

2) Check the mounting and alignment of the Reed 3P-a pro ought to be considered. 

3) Check the cartridge alignment-again a pro like Brian Walsh ought to be considered. 

4) Have the motor serviced by a pro-I recommend Greg Metz of STS out of Nashville. 

5) Try a PSU. 

6) Relocate your turntable and investigate a different turntable rack-I happen to prefer Symposium.

7) Experiment with different footers-I have had far better results with Stillpoints over IsoAcoustics for the plinth. 

8) Only last do I recommend a new idler wheel unless you have some reason to believe that your existing idler is out of round. 

Sorry for being vague…the main issue is chassis vibrations. As I increase volume, the vibrations in plinth increases causing stylus to jump up or skip grooves. 

This helps tremendously. So without a doubt your problem is not the motor, not the plinth, and a PSU is not the immediate answer. 

The mere fact that a dealer set it up means little in my book. The Reed 3P is at once both easy and tricky to set up. AS in particular can easily be set way too high. Back the magnetic AS quite a way (reducing it) and increase your VTF to the max within your cartridge specs. See if that helps a little. Make sure your deck is level and rock solid in terms of how it sits on your rack (not subject to rocking). 

Your problem though is one of isolation. One way or another your Garrard is set up in an excited/lively zone of your room. It could be in a room node, it could be over a particular springy portion of your floor or both. Bracing your floor joists from underneath ought to be considered. A massive, rigid, equipment stand positioned away from any room node and positioned over a solid portion of your suspended floor is extremely likely to eliminate your problem. Imho, IsoAcoustic pucks are not the proper form of isolation under your plinth. You want to drain energy, not absorb it. Once your rack/stand is ideally situated, mount Stillpoints or similar to the underside of your plinth. 

In the the real world where a bunch of equipment is already positioned-I looked at your virtual system-most of us don't have the energy (pun) to reconfigure the room just to accommodate a turntable. So I realize my implementing my recommendations are easier said than done. 

Let's back up. Which platter are you presently using? I am a huge proponent of sourcing the very best after-market bearing available and have done that with both. my hot-rodded Thorens TD124 and Garrard 301 but I also sourced heavier platters than the OEM on each. On the other hand, there is something magical about the OEM lightweight 301 platter and OEM bearing, particularly the grease bearing. Considerations boil down to the STYLE/character of the sound you seek. The heavy duty precision bearing and heavier platter produce a more neutral and arguable "cleaner, quieter" sound, the OEM platter and bearing provide a more propulsive and dynamic sound that may be noisier, but is more fun. 

Let's go big picture though; neither the upgraded bearing nor the custom plinth is going to solve your problem. You have a feedback/isolation problem. Your loudspeakers are essentially overpowering your tonearm/cartridge/record interface. If you have a handy friend (or an available contractor) please try my relatively easy-to-implement trick of bracing the floor joists under your equipment rack from underneath. This can be done on a temporary trial basis. Try 4x4 vertical posts wedged as tightly as possible without unleveling your suspending floor against the joists. That said, this will not eliminate airborne energy overpowering your turntable isolation. At some point repositioning your loudspeakers and even considering a different loudspeaker (and subs) may be required. Many of us fixate on the loudspeaker when putting our systems together and end up with a speaker that is simply too large and emits too much energy for the owner's listening room. Then "we" wonder why the sound does not match ones expectations. We can call this the "Magico Syndrome". For example, in my relatively small room my Devore O/93's are perfect and their bigger brother, the O/96's, as much as I love them more in a vacuum (larger room) would do the very same thing in my room as you are currently experiencing. 

But yes, I would never have chosen a DAS plinth. Greg Metz provided me with one and mounted my 301 in it when I bought my NOS 301 from him. I could not get rid of it fast enough. Luckily for me, Russ Collinson of Layers of Beauty was still building incredible custom plinths at the time. And please, try Stillpoints when you upgrade your plinth. You might try contacting Steve Dobbins of Xact Audio for advice. He offers his own design of 301 platter and plinth and is a huge advocate of Stillpoints for 301's.