I am riveted to my listening chair (and I have yet to try better fuses, no really).
Gravitas to Bryon for excellent thread work!
Gravitas to Bryon for excellent thread work!
Fuses that matter.
I have tried six different fuses, including some that were claimed to not be directional. I have long used the IsoClean fuses as the best I have heard. No longer! I just got two 10 amp slow-blows WiFi Tuning Supreme fuses that really cost too much but do make a major difference in my sound. I still don't understand how a fuse or its direction can alter sound reproduction for the better, but they do and the Supreme is indeed! I hear more detail in the recordings giving me a more holographic image. I also hear more of the top and bottom ends. If only you could buy them for a couple of bucks each.
804 responses Add your response
Bryon, another hilarious post....of course I was joking by calling myself a troll. Now, the real question is who is the troll here, you or me? You have certainly stalked me like one. By the way there are many reasons why you did not get definitive results with you fuse experiments, some of which have been touched upon, but since you are so persistent in stalking me, it might be of some interest to mention them now. One reason is your system is not up to standards needed for a test. You yourself pointed out the contacts had to be cleaned. That's not a very good sign. Another reason for inconclusive results is that your hearing is not all that you claim it is. Funny, all this chestbeating and namecalling resulted from something as obscure and magical as a tiny little fuse. Anyway, it's been nice stalking with you. Cheers |
Thank you Al, Nonoise, John, and Marqmike for your words of support. Its heartening to know that there are other folks who understand whats happening here. 06-09-12: GeoffkaitShh. Do you hear that, Geoff? That is the sound of your defeat. Your credibility is gone. And it will not return, so long as your admission to being a Troll exists on Audiogon. I am grateful to the moderators for showing restraint in this thread, because we have arrived at a culmination that was worth 400 posts, and that is your confession that you are a fraud. Has it never occurred to you to ask why, in spite of dozens of posts arguing with you across multiple threads, I've never called you a Troll or a fraud? Because I suspected that, if I persisted long enough, and if I pressed back relentlessly, you would eventually do exactly what you have done: You would tell us yourself. You have taken off your mask, Geoff. What is underneath the mask is well, Ill let people judge for themselves. Youve made a grave tactical error, one of several lately. The error should be obvious with a moments reflection: The biggest challenge to Machina Dynamica is the allegation that you, and your products, are a fraud. Youve just told us that YOU are a fraud. It's a very short step to the conclusion that YOUR PRODUCTS are a fraud. Speaking of which... Ironically, I have been the number one seller on Audiogon for the past five years with the highest rating, tooThis is false. As of this morning, Machina Dynamica has 1156 positive feedbacks, which can be seen here. Underwood Hifi, for example, has more than three times as many, with 3925 positive feedbacks, seen here. In light of your recent confession, I hope you will understand if I interpret your false claim to be not an innocent mistake, but another deception. If so, then you have just provided us with the second Smoking Gun not only do you use deception in your contributions to the forum, you also use deception in the promotion of your products. Check and mate. Bryon |
Knghifi, That's just what Bryon is saying. Boys must believe otherwise since they suggest he cannot hear what he hears in his system: "Hmmmm...one wonders if Bryon Cunningham installed some of the fuses incorrectly during his recent testing of aftermarket fuses" "I have lost faith in ANY tests of fuses unless the person performing the tests is already familiar with the difference in sound fuse direction makes" "Well, I hate to judge before all the facts are in but I suppose there is some possibility that the unclean contacts masked the results of the fuse tests." "Bryon is kind of an exception, since he cannot yet prove to himself that new fuses or fuse directionality are as important as everyone says" |
Its' only been five years and counting no smoke and no mirrors. One of the most shocking up grades I have ever made. If you have no faith of the stability and circuit integrity of a particular component then don't try this. My preference for the maximum in sound reproduction. Next up a N52 versus a N45. Tom |
Geof, There's something to be said about a persons character and then there's something to be said about coming clean in such a lowly fashion. Especially after such a nice dress down. Do all trolls deflect this way or are others of your ilk better equipped to deal with it? Maybe is was something you said. Ho Ho Ho. All the best, Nonoise |
It probably goes without saying, but I'll say anyway that I am in total agreement with what I consider to be Bryon's exceptionally incisive, precise, and clear analyses and comments. Furthermore, I consider his finding of sonic differences between the fuses he has tried to be more persuasive than most such claims, given his careful and thorough methodology, his clearly unbiased and open-minded approach, and his precise description and qualification of the results. On another note: 1)If indeed AC line fuses in audio components can result in perceptible sonic differences, and 2)Given that parties on both sides of the issue (me and TBG, for example) mutually recognize that those differences defy technical explanation and understanding, and 3)Given that most and perhaps nearly all reported fuse comparisons seem to be between the stock fuse and one or more expensive fuses, what basis is there to assume that a comparison among a variety of INEXPENSIVE garden-variety fuses would not result in a perception of comparable differences, with the winner of the comparison perhaps being subjectively as good as any of the expensive fuses? I see no such basis or rationale from a technical standpoint, and I see no such basis in any of the nearly 400 posts that have appeared in this thread so far. Bryon's finding that the stock fuse was preferred in two different components to one of the expensive fuses that were tried gives added legitimacy to that question. Personally, I have no interest in taking the time to perform that experiment. But would one of those who has advocated the superiority of expensive fuses vs. stock fuses care to give it a try? Regards, -- Al |
Bryon, I read many threads, but post only when the content hits a nerve. In this case, your penultimate paragraph did. I agree with the phrase "that all men are created equal", but only when the sum of the parts are considered. As you insightfully pointed out 'we each have them in different proportions'. To wit, everyone sees, hears, perceives, believes, etc. differently to some extent. Thus, so goes "truth". Statistics quantify perceptions, but offer nothing regarding truth. Therefore a resolution to the "truth of the matter" regarding fuse impact can never be reached simply because (in this case) truth itself is subjective. Now that I am philosophically vented, I must admit that that my Cary SLP-05 preamp sounds significantly better with HFT SIlver Star fuses than it did with the stock fuses. And the impact and bass are better with the fuses in one particular direction. And that's the truth. Regards, John |
Bryon, what is hilarious is that you spend so much time arguing with *me* - geez, I thought everyone knew I was just a dodge and weave troll. Hell, I wasn't allowed to post here for four years, even to defend myself, because the threads tended to get a little, uh, out of hand. The threads on machina dynamica went south pretty fast even without me, as you can probably surmise. Ironically, I have been the number one seller on Audiogon for the past five years with the highest rating, too, so all this angst and hand wringing has me a little puzzled. I wonder, Is it something I said? Ha ha ha |
Thank you Nonoise. You are a gentleman. But I too have a swan song... 06-08-12: GeoffkaitCome on, Geoff. You can do better than that. No one here is going to believe that you found my post either hilarious or deceptive. If you think you can trick people with that feeble misdirection, youve miscalculated by an order of magnitude. It isn't just that your misdirection is facile. It's that it's bizarre, as Mapman pointed out. On the bright side, you've provided everyone with an excellent illustration of the Method of Evasion, which is the hallmark of Obscurantism. The Method goes like this 1. Be cryptic. 2. Misrepresent your opponent. 3. Change the subject. Calling my post hilarious and deceptive does all three in roughly equal measure. You also regularly employ a fourth tactic, which is your personal touch on Obscurantism 4. Project your own misconduct onto your opponent. Obviously, Im referring to your suggestion that my post was "deceptive." Throughout this thread, I've proceeded with openness and candor, Ive freely admitted my mistakes and limitations, and I've given no reason to believe that I have the slightest thing to gain by deception. The truthfulness of that statement, and the sincerity of the post you called deceptive, is transparently obvious to other posters on this thread, as evidenced by their remarks. Add to that the fact that Ive never once been accused of deception in the three years Ive participated on Audiogon. In light of all that, your suggestion that I was being deceptive is so implausible that its difficult to imagine that even you believe it. On the other hand, you are routinely accused of deception. Several posters have accused you of it on this thread already. Ive personally charged you with Obscurantism on more than one occasion. Trying to project that accusation onto me is about as persuasive as its elementary school equivalent: Im rubber, youre glue ________________________________________ Chad I agree with you. Whats remarkable isnt that people argue. Whats remarkable is that they cooperate. You mentioned Human Nature in an earlier post. Personally, I believe many of the contemporary sociobiological theories about the nature of Human Nature, which suggest that it is deceptive, aggressive, and self-interested, but also that it can be trustworthy, cooperative, and altruistic. I would add that I believe that there is not ONE Human Nature but MANY. While everyone has all of those traits, we each have them in different proportions, creating a wide variety of Human Natures. That is visible every day in the microcosm of Audiogon. While Obscuratism, Dogmatism, and other antisocial behaviors are easily found, so are sincerity, generosity, and kindness. And that is something to feel encouraged about. Bryon |
Bryon I am with you. I am also saddend by the truth of your above statement. It's amazing we are all here. One has to balance mans incredible achievements against his many flaws. But the fact that you and I can chat like this across thousands of miles without ever meeting does say something. On a happier note and to lay this thread to rest do we say 1 fuses matter sonically, and said fuses orientation is of no importance? 2 fuses don't matter sonically and neither does their orientation in the circuit? 3 fuses matter sonically and their direction is equally important sonically? 4 fuses don't matter sonically unless their orientation is incorrect? 5 the thought of fuses and their orientation matters sonically? Ie Placebo. 6 the thought of fuses matters sonically, but not the thought of its orientation in the circuit? Lol. I was very nearly serious until no.6. As I have said I have had good results from Hifi specialist fuses. I have never gotten caught up too much in the direction of the fuse. |
Mapman wrote, "Hilarious? Deceptive? I don't get it. Heavy, maybe but rings true. Let me activate my really clever little egg timer that i've been tinkering with to recalibrate the time decoding of my thoughts and see if that helps me get it maybe." http://io9.com/5916646/pbs-autotunes-mr-rogers-the-results-are-tender-and-trippy |
Well done Bryon. For me Bryon has always been clear logical and open. I cannot say that for some who want to argue with him. I don't see him saying he is right but him wanting to enlist good information to narrow in on the solution or answer or whatever is being looked at. Those like Geoff I haven't been able to see so easily and clearly where they stand or what they are trying to convey. Which honestly makes listening to them frustrating at times. I thank Bryon for keeping in this sector of audiogon a reasoned approach that can result in fun for our hobby and some real benefits in sound quality. |
06-08-12: GeoffkaitGentlemen - I freely admit that my last post was argumentative in the most literal sense. But it wasn't motivated by contrariness. It was motivated by something more significant, as I'll try to explain in this post. Chad - I certainly understand why you feel we've gotten lost. In relation to the topic of fuses, we are lost. But there's another topic woven into this thread, and woven into a great many threads here on A'gon. It's the topic of Truth. I'm not talking about who knows the Truth and who doesn't. I'm talking about how people conduct themselves during disagreements about the Truth... there are people who are inclined to investigate what MIGHT BE true and there are people who are not. From what I can tell, the folks who arent inclined to investigate during disagreements fall into one of two categories 1. People who think they already know the Truth. 2. People who have no allegiance to the Truth. People who think they already know the Truth often resist efforts to investigate it, especially when that investigation contradicts what they know to be true. This is a Dogmatist. People who have no allegiance to the Truth often confound efforts to investigate it, especially when that investigation threatens their agenda. This is an Obscurantist. Dogmatism and Obscurantism are among the biggest obstacles to constructive conversations when there is a disagreement about the Truth. The Dogmatists tactic is the Method of Assertion and requires the use of force. The Obscurantists tactic is the Method of Evasion and requires the use of misdirection. This thread has seen both force and misdirection used in the service of Dogmatism and Obscurantism. Occasionally the Dogmatist and the Obscurantist become allies. They unite against their common enemy: the Investigator. A person who investigates the Truth during disagreements is a threat to the Dogmatists knowledge and to the Obscurantists agenda. So together the Dogmatist and the Obscurantist resist and confound the Investigator, using force to make him back down or misdirection to make him give up. And that brings us back to the subject of argumentativeness. The only way to combat the Dogmatist is to NOT back down in the face of force. The only way to combat the Obscurantist is to NOT give up in the face of misdirection. The inevitable result of either is the same... arguments. Lots of them. THAT is the motive behind my last post, and ones like it. This should come as no surprise to Geoff, at least. He and I have been down this road before. You may be wondering if any of this could possibly matter enough to spend this kind of time discussing it. I believe it does. Im getting tired so Ill just quote myself from other threads. Heres why, IMO, Dogmatism matters Willful dogmatism, in the sense I intend it, is deliberately obstructionist... I mention this because I think its relevant to a significant number of posts on Agon, in which ideas are presented as undeniably true, without consideration of evidence or the opinions of others. Some of those folks seem to be deliberate obstructionists - in other words, willfully dogmatic. Others seem to be uninformed, misinformed, or anti-informed.The inflexibility that the Dogmatist has toward his own knowledge is typically accompanied by hostility toward the knowledge of others, or even hostility toward knowledge more generally. Quoting myself... Hostility toward knowledge stalls the progress of ideas, stifles efforts to reduce human suffering, and threatens the very survival of our species. Yes, literally.Put simply, Dogmatism breeds ignorance and intolerance. And heres why, IMO, Obscurantism matters. Me again... Obscurantism may be harmless in the audio world, but it isn't harmless in the real world. In the real world, obscurantism thrives in the form of political propaganda and economic deception. If you need an illustration of this, look no further than the recent financial crisis. The world was brought to the brink of economic oblivion by the actions of people armed with Multifactor Derivatives, Collateralized Debt Obligations, Credit Default Swaps, and a host of other financial instruments designed with one thing in mind: Obscurantism.Put simply, Obscurantism breeds deception and exploitation. The ignorance and intolerance bred by Dogmatism combined with the deception and exploitation bred by Obscurantism account for a vast amount of human conflict, inequality, and suffering. IMO, standing up to those forces is a worthwhile undertaking, even when its only in the very humble form thats possible here. And with that, I would say that we are no longer lost. Bryon |
Mapman wrote, ""It's seems similar to a religious doctrine. " Fusism would be a good name I suppose? Nebulous things like this that defy scientific models will inevitably be viewed from a dogmatic perspective by each I suppose. What else is there to say?" Well, one thing that could be said is that all of the various aftermarket fuses, including Audio Magic's Nano Fuse, have been very favorably reviewed, often rave reviewed, in major audiophile magazines, at least once. A cursory search turned up eight reviews. A skeptic would say it's the placebo effect or expectation bias or group hypnosis. LOL |
Bryon, you're being argumentative again. I was simply pointing out that I have not accused you of wasting your time testing fuses. Why would I? But why would you say "you guys say it's a waste of time to experiment with fuses" unless you thought I was? Since I actually wasn't accusing you of wasting your time, your twisted logic notwithstanding, I have decided to let my strawman remark stand. Geoff |
It's a shame that we steered off the path. We were asked about fuses that matter. I feel they do & are more important in some equipment than others. Suddenly we have got personal. We should be discussing which fuse worked well & did its direction impact the sound? Now we are dissecting arguments & character. Bryon is excellent at keeping things clear. Even so we still have got lost. Human nature I guess. Maybe the OP should read "people's opinion that matter". Music matters. Not the gear. It's seems similar to a religious doctrine. The point gets lost in the argument. |
06-08-12: GeoffkaitYou want to go down this road again? How many times are you going to suggest that Im strawmanning you? You have a bit of a fixation, don't you think? So far youve failed to substantiate ANY of your strawmanning accusations. And in an inspired but inadvertent act of irony, the posts in which you accuse me of strawmanning invariably contain a straw man OF ME. I've demonstrated that several times already. You really want to go through it again? I suppose you like the ride. Ok, here we go When you suggested that I was strawmanning you, it was in reference to my comment that You guys say it is a waste of time to experiment with fuses.I wrote that in direct response Tbg's comment that... 06-06-12: TbgThe phrase "largely fruitless" is of course a metaphor. Its synonymous with another metaphor a waste of time. So when I said that Tbgs comment amounted to saying that it's a waste of time to experiment with fuses, I was not strawmanning him. I was summarizing him. Q.E.D. That leaves me to address whether I was strawmanning you. Lets retrace our steps again. Tbg said that the reason I was wasting my time was that... ...there are TOO MANY fuses and too many components.In the very next post on the thread, you said... 06-06-12: GeoffkaitTbg says "too many fuses" and you say "how many fuses?" Anyone with a passing familiarity with conversational English would think that you were picking up where Tbg left off. With that in mind, you go on to say... Let's say an average system contains 7 fuses. Now, I suspect there are some statisticians here who can do the calculation for how many tests would be required for 7 types of fuses and 7 fuse installations. And how long it would take. A hundred years?If that doesnt suggest that the comparative testing of fuses is a waste of time, then I need an MRI of my left temporal lobe to make sure that my language comprehension is still in tact. Are we to believe that you're suggesting that a hundred year comparative study of fuses is REASONABLE USE of time? Of course not. And if it's not a reasonable use of time, then it's a waste of time. Q.E.D. Need a sec. Deep breath... ahhh. That was tedious. Time for my favorite part: the part where, right in the same post where you falsely accuse me of strawmanning you, YOU STAWMAN ME. The straw man begins with your comment that... Your opinion matters more than someone who hasn't experimented, but it is still an opinion.I never said, or implied, that my opinion is anything other than an opinion. Here's what I said, for example, about fuse direction... 06-06-12: BryoncunninghamDoes that sound like I believe that my opinion is anything other than an opinion? No. The straw man continues with your comment that... No one person's experiment is definitive, it's only a data point. We should consider your opinion along with all of the many other published experiments - and our own experiments.I never said, or implied, that my experiment was definitive. Here's what I said... 05-18-12: BryoncunninghamDoes that sound like I was suggesting that my fuse experiment was definitive? No. The straw man is completed with your comment that... Simply because you are still sitting on the fence regarding fuses should not mean that anyone else should also be sitting on the fence.I never said, or implied, that anyone needs to share my point of view. In fact, I've gone out of my way to emphasize that it is merely a point of view, as in... 06-06-12: Bryoncunningham Q.E.D. And that concludes my latest Refutation and Reversal of your accusation of strawmanning. By my count, that is the third Refutation and Reversal on this subject. That should be enough for anybody. Why do you keep coming back to this Cycle of Abuse? Bryon |
Bryon wrote, "So let me get this straight... 1. You guys say that people's opinions matter only if they experiment with fuses." - Yes, otherwise it's just idle speculation. "2. I experiment with fuses." - Your opinion matters more than someone who hasn't experimented, but it is still an opinion. No one person's experiment is definitive, it's only a data point. We should consider your opinion along with all of the many other published experiments - and our own experiments. Simply because you are still sitting on the fence regarding fuses should not mean that anyone else should also be sitting on the fence. "3. You guys say it is a waste of time to experiment with fuses." - Strawman argument alert. I don't think anyone is saying that at all, at least not me. My "hundred years" comment was responding to another poster's inquiry regarding professional comparison tests of aftermarket fuses. I was pointing out the heroic effort that would be involved in such a comparison test, not that it would be a waste of time. |
06-06-12: TbgI see. So I'm wasting my time experimenting with fuses. I wish I had thought of that. Wait a second. Aren't you the same guys who said... 05-12-12: TbgSo let me get this straight... 1. You guys say that people's opinions matter only if they experiment with fuses. 2. I experiment with fuses. 3. You guys say that it is a waste of time to experiment with fuses. Did I miss something? Let me check... No, I didn't. Can we just start referring to your position as The Double Bind? Gotta go. My Viagra is kicking in. Bryon |
Geoffkait, It's funny to hear a charlatan like yourself speaking about comparative testing. I doubt that you had any need for it while conjuring up your imaginary audio improvement tweeks. So tell us, when are you going to start selling your "ultimate fuse"? I guess that would be a lot more difficult than going to AC Moore and filling up some little craft bottles with colored quartz beads. |
Seems like things here are getting confusing with multiple tests that could take years. I think I'll just stay with my old method, if it sounds better leave it in place, if not remove it, the fuses are still in place. I suppose we could look at fuses as everything else in audio, you could spend years trying to find the very best for your system, sometimes referred to here as chasing your tail, or you can just buy the one you prefer and enjoy the music. |
Ah yes, "Conventional Wisdom." About the time of the steam locomotive's invention; scientists determined that the human body could only withstand about a 35MPH maximum speed. It's only been lately, that scientists understood how Bumblebees could generate enough lift to fly:(http://www.news.cornell.edu/releases/March00/APS_Wang.hrs.html) Imagine how bland a world, without these on pizza or pasta: (http://www.tomatogardeningguru.com/history.html) |
So many fuses, so little time. The same applies to amps, cables, transports, you name it. Yet it didn't stop me from trying at least one and from what I heard in my system, I made the right choice. :-) Daunting as it is made to look, the proof is in the listening. All other considerations and views are just conjecture, doomed to become conventional wisdom, and in this hobby, conventional wisdom can keep one from fully realizing the potential of ones system. All the best, Nonoise |
Let's see, how many aftermarket fuses are there, including all the various Hi Fi Tuning fuses? Let's say seven for the purposes of argument. How many fuses does the average system contain? Allowing for 5-7 days for break-in, a proper comparative test of fuses should wrap up a "professional reviewer" for a good long while, about one year. And that's assuming that there is one type of fuse that is superior to all others in all installations - speakers, amps, etc. as Tgb points out that might very well not be the case. Then the number of test goes up astronomically. Let's say an average system contains 7 fuses. Now, I suspect there are some statisticians here who can do the calculation for how many tests would be required for 7 types of fuses and 7 fuse installations. And how long it would take. A hundred years? Cheerio |
06-06-12: Talk2meMy fuse experiment, described here, gave me an opportunity to compare fuses. At this point, I've tried 4 types of fuses in 3 pieces of equipment... Meridian preamp: stock, Hifi Tuning Silverstar, Isoclean Pass amp: stock, Hifi Tuning Silverstar, Furutech Parasound Halo amp: stock, Furutech In ONE case I heard a similarity between two fuses of the same type when used in two different pieces of equipment, and that was the Hifi Tuning Silverstars. When installed in the Meridian preamp and the Pass amp, the Silverstars had the result of making things sound "phasey," as I described in my experiment. Having said that, I suspect that the audible characteristics of fuses are largely extrinsic, and therefore variable from component to component and system to system. Admittedly, that is a speculation. Bryon |
