This thread definitely has some legs.
Allow me to point out something I did much earlier (either here or on another thread) where it was apparent to me that the amount of improvement was dependent on the pedigree (level of refinement) of the unit and system the fuse was inserted into.
On my Chinese import Classic 6.1, it took a full 4 days to finally ascertain the sonic benefits, which were more than subtle. Upon insertion of the fuses, it went from sounding like bolts of cheesecloth were layered over the speakers to a total opening of the soundstage, a taming of the highs, extension and tightening of the bass, and a clearer and more distinct layering. A much more realistic presentation.
On my Burson PI-160, it was no where near as dramatic but the improvements were still there. And it only took about two days before I stopped hearing any improvements.
The quality of the components plays a large part in all of this.
I would be willing to bet that if I were to insert my rig into Bryon's house, I would not experience the level of improvement than if he were to insert it into my humble apartment.
In fact, the first reaction at my place would be WTF happened to the sound?
All kidding aside, Bryon's place is already tweaked with better wiring, dedicated circuits, etc. that I don't have so the power is better regulated and cleaner than average and the benefits of better fuses wouldn't be as apparent compared to how it would be at my place. They would simply be more subtle, but still there. A maddening effect if there ever was one.
It's all a matter of degree, synergy, symbiosis (if these were living organisms) and what other levels of improvement and refinement are already in place.
All the best,
Nonoise |
Ok, Geoff. That was a good response. Neither polemical nor irrelevant. And I do value the reports of other, especially when they coincide. So you give me very little to argue with at the moment. I have confidence you will rectify that situation. 05-26-12: Tmsorosk
I wonder if the nay sayers here have even given them a try, or is it the old, I know it all so I'll just bury my head it the sand attitude.
05-26-12: Tbg
Tmsorosk, the naysayers are irrelevant. They mainly don't want to try this tweak or they claim they hear nothing. That is their problem. Gentlemen - The skepticism I expressed over the gushing quote from Stereo Times may make me sound like a 'naysayer,' but it doesn't make me one of the people who "don't want to try this tweak." At this point, I've bought FIVE fancy fuses and conducted A/B tests that, while not scientific, are nonetheless careful and sincere. The conclusions of my tests make me a tentative Believer, not a Naysayer. Admittedly, I'm not a Gusher. But that is a far cry from "burying my head in the sand." Bryon |
Blew some fuses recently so for fun installed hifi tuning supreme.
Maybe it's just my imagination, or could be related to a relatively new digital cable burning in, here's what I notice:
-- more relaxed, liquid, musical
-- more "space" around instruments, more specific placement, less congestion
-- greater soundstage depth/layering
Placebo maybe, who knows. Not sure I care. |
Tmsorosk, the naysayers are irrelevant. They mainly don't want to try this tweak or they claim they hear nothing. That is their problem. Obviously, I entirely share your experiences. For the last five or six years, I have been concerned with fuse direction and later with the fuse manufacturer. I have had some devices where the fuse direction didn't seem to matter much are where there were multiple fuses or I could not be certain that I had exhausted all the many combinations of direction among them. Similarly, I have experienced special fuses that did little or that actually harmed the sound. I have even tried magnets in place of the fuses, but thought there was no real benefit and certainly hesitated to have no protection.
You either try things or not. If one choses to not try changes, it bothers me little. |
Well said,,,Greoffkait,,, my experience with the Supremes are the same. I've tried different fuses before with little or no change, but for once the Supremes made an unquestionable improvement.
I wonder if the nay sayers here have even given them a try, or is it the old, I know it all so I'll just bury my head it the sand attitude. |
Bryon, more grist for the mill is the recent review last year of the Supreme3 fuses from Hi Fi Tuning in Positive Feedback by Greg Weaver (a very experienced reviewer). Please note the use of the word, transparency. Coincidence? Not to mention the word, astonishing.
"After a brief bout of quite to install all eight fuses, I re-fired all my components to let everything have some time to "run in." Over the next three to three and a half weeks, I heard some exemplary, if subtle, improvements.
While I had expected some slight advances here or there, in a few specific categories, I was treated to small but encompassing, readily distinguishable, sonic improvements to virtually every attribute of my rig. The overall improvement wrought by their insertion was simply astonishing.
What stood out from the first was the notable enhancement in overall timbre, especially through the lower to mid bass, and the upper midrange through lower treble regions. Bass runs, from the thundering electric bass licks of the "Ox" Entwistle, to the engaging and often nuanced cello efforts of Janos Starker, were weightier, "woodier" sounding, and more tonally balanced. Strings, horns, and cymbals further shed most remnants of that "white-ish" sonic tinge and were rendered in a more fluid and coherent manner.
Transparency enjoyed a wholesale improvement; slight, granted, but bettered without question. This comes in two forms as I heard it. First, through the reduction of a miniscule yet inclusive fine graining, offering a more liquid texture overall, and secondly, by contributing to a slight reduction of the noise floor.
Spatial recreation enjoys special attention. Dimensionality takes on a slightly more focused nature, and at the same time, instrumental lines are recreated with better delineation and seemingly more accurate and appropriate size.
Both microdynamic events and microdynamic shadings are more readily revealed, unleashing enhanced detail and offering enhanced perception of physical and emotional involvement." |
Ok, first off, that quote from Stereo Times stretches the limits of credibility. "Transparency to die for"? Really? Come on. Second, your interpretation of my last post is odd, to put it politely. I was NOT saying that the results of every fuse listening test are ambiguous. I was saying that there is ambiguity present in every A/B listening test WHEN YOU ARE UNABLE TO DISCERN A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A AND B. If that was not obvious from the sentence you quoted, it should have been obvious from the very next sentence... In other words, WHEN YOU FAIL TO HEAR A DIFFERENCE DURING AN A/B, there are always three possible interpretations... [emphasis added] I suspect, of all the people following this thread, your uncharitable interpretation of my post is unique. That should tell you something. Oh, and one other thing. Your mischaracterization of my comments falls into a category you have a particular affection for... It is a Straw Man. Bryon |
Bryon said, "That occurred to me, Geoff. But that ambiguity is present in EVERY listening test.
That's weird...all the reviews of Hi Fi Tuning and Isoclean Fuses in all of the major audio magazines are anything but ambiguous. For example, below find the conclusion of the Stereo Times review of Hi Fi Tuning fuses:
Conclusion
My time spent with both, the Ultra Systems HiFi-Tuning Fuses and Supreme Fuses over the years has equated to a audio life-changing experience. ItÂ’s impossible to tell if you will experience the same effects that I have since all systems are different, and my taste in music may be different from yours. However, I have not heard of anyone whoÂ’s tried these fuses utter anything but high praise. All I have heard were accolades expressing pure amazement as to how their systems have transformed with more focus, clarity, enhanced soundstage and transparency to die for. |
That occurred to me, Geoff. But that ambiguity is present in EVERY listening test. In other words, when you fail to hear a difference during an A/B, there are ALWAYS three possible interpretations...
1. There is no difference between A and B.
2. The system is not sufficiently resolving to hear the difference between A and B.
3. Your brain is not sufficiently resolving to hear the difference between A and B.
If your A/B testing is limited to a single system, then it is literally impossible to know which interpretation is correct. The only way around this is to (a) change an element of your system and test again, or (b) listen to the reports of others who have performed similar tests on their systems. I tend to do both.
But I dread the idea of another fuse test. I think I will just leave in the fancy fuses. After all, they look pretty.
Bryon |
Bryon said,
"Then I decided to clean and apply Progold to every contact in the system, including the contacts on the power cords and IEC inlets. Now THAT was audible."
Well, I hate to judge before all the facts are in but I suppose there is some possibility that the unclean contacts masked the results of the fuse tests.
:-) |
Meditation or medication??? |
"hen I decided to clean and apply Progold to every contact in the system, including the contacts on the power cords and IEC inlets. Now THAT was audible. "
When it comes to electronics, especially contacts, clean/conductive is always good. Nothing crazy there! |
Ok, this time I'm serious...
In addition to the Pass amp I used for my fuse experiment, I have a Parasound Halo amp that I use for home theater. Yesterday I opened the Parasound and removed all the fuses, 6 in total. First I cleaned the endcaps with Cardas contact cleaner and then I polished them with Progold. I reinstalled the suckers and fired things up. I thought I noticed a slight improvement, though I may have been imagining it.
Then I decided to clean and apply Progold to every contact in the system, including the contacts on the power cords and IEC inlets. Now THAT was audible.
Bryon |
In the words of the immortal Dr. Zachary Smith:
" Oh dear! We're doomed! Doomed, I say!" |
Bryon,
Hopefully the meditation headset has a reliable and good sounding fuse in it! :-)
Cheers! |
In the past in exchange for my own personal insanity I purchased a Mood Ring off Ebay for my wife Gloria Like fuses I was somewhat skeptical the ring would do anything but it really really works When she is in a good mood it glows Emerald Green and when she is in a bad mood it leaves a Red Mark in the middle of my forehead ;-( Oh No What Are THESES |
Come to think of it, for the past couple years, she's been giving me pills every morning at breakfast. For vitamins, they sure do make me feel funny. Time to go. The orderly says it's time for daily meditation. bc |
"Time comes when design engineer has to be shot so that design can be released to production"
I like that!
The fact is that in the real world, designs have target dates and/or deadlines so product can be brought to market and designers move on to the next big issue.
Of course, nobody ever said that audiophiles reside in anything even slightly resembling the real world, so whatever turns you on! |
I suspect along with the suggestion of a dedicated room, diffusion panels, etc would be substituted for nice full soft rubber walls. The best part is that you would get special audiophile listening attire... those nice white jackets that tie in the back.....
oh, she's good alright! |
Bryon, It is natural to keep searching and testing, but
"Time comes when design engineer has to be shot so that design can be released to production" |
Iso - When I married my wife, who at the time was already a doctor of considerable clinical experience, I naturally assumed she would cure me of my audionervosa. In spite of several years of marital contentment, she has failed utterly in that endeavor.
In fact, she never initiated any treatment whatsoever. At times when I've demanded medical attention, which medical ethics compels her to provide, she uses strange phrases like "I'm respecting boundaries" or "It's your decision" or "Have fun, honey." Once, she even suggested that we take equity out of the house so I could build a dedicated listening room behind the garage.
So, in fact, I believe I am beyond hope.
Leave me here. Save yourselves.
Bryon |
Bryoncunningham, I have probably thirty unused special fuses around here. Most are here for a device that I once had. Most 1 amp 20 mm fuses are used, but 1 amp longer fuses or now unused. I also have quite a few 10 amp long fuses lying around. Look at it this ways-having fuses lying around is cheaper than having amps lying around. |
Bryon, I applaud your efforts in seeking self-help by going so far as to marry a mental health professional. If that didn't do it you may be beyond hope, my friend. |
SOMEONE - PLEASE - HELP - ME - STOP
I just bought another fuse. |
--Report...
--Measured line voltage on dedicated line powering entire audio system...
--Reproduced conditions similar to fuse test...
--Result: 120.0 V (On the dot. Meter ranged from 119.9 to 120.1, within the meter's +/-)...
--End Report.
Submitted by: Corky the Cockroach.
Stay alert and beware of traps! |
Just lift the metal bar Geoff.
You can slither out again. |
Did someone forget to put out the cockroach traps? |
>>You've been accused of many things, Geoff, but being dumb isn't one of them. <<
Au contraries.
That is precisely my opinion. |
Bryon, Perhaps your hands were too slow to keep same direction 60 times a second? |
Bryon, Ooops, I had forgotten you changed direction of the fuses.
Geoff |
05-21-12: Geoffkait
Hmmmm...one wonders if Bryon Cunningham installed some of the fuses incorrectly during his recent testing of aftermarket fuses. If so, that might explain his less than stellar results... I could not have been clearer in my post on 5/18 that I did in fact test fuse direction during my experiment. In the METHOD section, I said... --Fuse direction was noted during every swap.
-- 3 auditions of each fuse in each direction And in my RESULTS section, I said... I could not hear any differences when changing direction for any of the fuses. Make of that what you will. Bad system. Bad ears. Bad method. Bad attitude. I just didn't hear it. That should clear that up. As far as your comment that... I have lost faith in ANY tests of fuses unless the person performing the tests is already familiar with the difference in sound fuse direction makes... ...you can't possibly mean what that appears to mean, namely that, in order to hear differences among fuses, you must have ALREADY HEARD differences among fuses. That would mean that no one could possibly hear differences among fuses FOR THE FIRST TIME. That is dumb. You've been accused of many things, Geoff, but being dumb isn't one of them. So you must have meant something else. Bryon |
I'm with Lacee here. If it makes a difference it makes a difference. You can read the white paper later.
There is a curtain amount of "voicing" a system that comes from small tweaks which when all added together can bring a refinement you would otherwise have missed. Fuses are in this catagory to me along with power outlets.
The question is where to start? Tube amps & preamps are a no brainer for fuse replacement in my experience, as long as you have paid attention to cabling & power supply too.
Which manufacturer of fuse is another question. Hifi tuning are not a bad place to start. |
Tmsorosk, what with directionality being an issue (except in the mind of skeptical couch potatoes) I have lost faith in ANY tests of fuses unless the person performing the tests is already familiar with the difference in sound fuse direction makes and unless he goes through the laborious procedure of trying each fuse in both directions as he proceeds. Not to mention the unplugging and re-plugging the power cord thing. There is a right way and a wrong way to get to the bottom of this thing. |
Bryon did not demo the newest Supreme fuse that I found considerable better than there first two efforts. There were some measurement tests on fuses on one of the zine sites that were very interesting and enlightening, don't recall which one. What was interesting was they all measured quite different. |
Tbg said,
"As good as I thought the HiFi Tuning Supremes were, they are now much better. I had relied on the information I got from my amps' (BMC M1s) imported about the direction to be used as well as that of the HiFi Tuning importer on how to install the fuse. Friday I did an A/B direction testing. I had it in wrong."
Hmmmm...one wonders if Bryon Cunningham installed some of the fuses incorrectly during his recent testing of aftermarket fuses. If so, that might explain his less than stellar results. I suspect it would certainly help to know what an incorrectly installed fuse sounds like - noticeably harsher and more "electronic". |
I never was one to seek out scientific proof about how any piece of my gear sounds.
I either like it or I don't.
It's an improvement or it's not and I won't try and tell anyone it's 2% or 20% or 200% better.
Night and day differences for me have all been in the past.
It's all shadings now, once you get past entry level gear.
It's also cumulative.
For the folks who like to grade system tweaks, the more 1% improvements you make eventually they add up to a 20% improvement or more.
Science hasn't yet given us all the answers to everything outside of this hobby either.
Neither do reviews give us all the answers, they are specific to who is doing the review and the gear is specific to them.
I can say that the Supreme fuses improve my sound, in my system, but I can't say they will do it yours, or that you could hear the difference in my system.Or that something is wrong with you if you can't.
Some folks make a big point out of the fact that they don't trust their ears,that the ears can be tricked(and provide the scientific proof of such claims, when provoked)so that for them to get a handle on things like fuses, they need proof in the form of a scientific white paper.
I've often thought that these types of audiophiles don't need to even buy audio gear,all they should need for musical enjoyment would be the sheet music.
I've always only had my ears to rely on, and I've been fortunate to have had some friends who were able to indulge in some very costly systems, that did in fact deliver on the goods.It was an education.
They didn't get their money by being fools, they didn't spend their money like fools and they weren't foolish enough to think that out of the box and into the wall was the only way to go.
The more you dable in this hobby and the more experience you have with being able to pick up on subtle as well as profound changes, the more things like fuses should make sense.
What I find so intriguing is that even at 100 bucks a pop,an upgraded fuse in a well tweeked system is about as cheap as it gets, and is so simple that anyone can "mod" their gear this way.
Scientific proof?
I don't need any,to me it's as simple as replacing a burned out light bulb, I know that works, don't care how.
I can see it with my own eyes.
Replace a stock fuse with a Supreme and I can hear the improvement.Don't care how it works.
I can hear it with my own ears. |
Lacee, I entirely endorse what you say about the IsoClean fuses. I probably used them in fifteen different components in the last five years. The HiFi Tuning Supremes in my present system all replaced IsoClean fuses.
Your question about why fuses sound different is beyond established scientific knowledge at this time and probably will remain there as few researching scientists would bother with the issue. |
I should add this bit of news,the HiFi Supreme fuses will do the job of protecting your gear and they can be destroyed just like any other fuse,I know this from painful experience.
A 500 ma fuse will self destruct when inserted into a 5 amp holder.
The 5 amp fuse was fine in the .5 amp spot.
So much for worries about reliabilty and protection issues concerning the HiFi Supreme fuses.
They do what they are supposed to and sound better in the process. |
Whether HiFi Supremes are better than the Iso Cleans,I can't say.I have no experience with any of the other HiFI fuses in the test and I have no expereince with the gear they were used in.I appreciate the effort and respect the findings.How could I argue with them?I wasn't there.
What I can state is that the IsoCleans bettered the stock fuse in the following components, Classe Dr 8 mono blocks,
power conditioner from Foundation research,a Cary SET 300B,and an EAD DVD player.
And the HiFi Supremes have improved the sound in a Manley Steelhead and a pair of Acoustat tube servo amps over their stock fuses.
All gear had to be turned off then on and off again,so that I could start with stock fuse, then Supreme, then back to stock and then Supreme.
I listened to the exact same music track and focused on background detail and the cymbal work.
My observations were that the initial impression of going to the Supreme fuse was favourable, every time. Listening without it less so and then back to satisfactory on the final insertion of the Supreme fuse.
I feel that the degradations of plugging and unplugging were evenly split in this manner.
I also listened with the Supremes in after a few days of play and also noticed a further refinement in the sound.
Well known music used for comparison purposes over years of gear swaps, exposed the increase in detail and body that the Supreme fuses were now providing.
I re-state that I didn't have any other types of fuses to compare the Supremes to, just the stock fuses,other fuses may or may not be better at any price points.
The important thing is that a fuse does affect the sound of what it's used in.
It's just as important as anything else. Because fuses can be constructed differently, like tubes and wires are made up of different materials,why is it hard to understand that they can also sound different from one another?
Cardas products are constructed differently than Nordost, and you can hear the difference and it's your choice what sound you like.
Everything does something to the sound,to state that the fuse can have no impact on sound quality lumps it into the realm of all amps sound the same.
I would presume that most folks on this site could be able to discerne the sonic traits of an EL 34, 300B or 6550 tube, and never state that they all sound the same.
So why should the fuse be different?
|
As good as I thought the HiFi Tuning Supremes were, they are now much better. I had relied on the information I got from my amps' (BMC M1s) imported about the direction to be used as well as that of the HiFi Tuning importer on how to install the fuse. Friday I did an A/B direction testing. I had it in wrong.
To not offend doubters' sensibilities, I will just say that such an A/B testing to get it right is absolutely necessary. |
Hey Chad - Believe me, I dream of Duelund caps. But wow are they pricey. If I could just stop buying fuses, I'd be well on my way!
bc |
Byron,
A semblance of a life? How could you possibly get on with your life when there are more fuses to test? What happend to that steely determination?lol.
BTW you mentioned mundorf caps. I like the silver in oils and the silver gold in oil too, but you must try the duelund caps... Image density, naturalness and depth all await you in droves! Forget a life, decend further into the audiophile madness. Life can wait. |
Liquid fuses. Cause that's what I want next to my electricity -- liquid.
Wait a second. Just looked them up. Audio Magic's liquid fuses also get their proprietary "NANO Stream Treatment." Impressive.
But not as impressive as my proprietary "PICO Stream Treatment," which I'm offering for the Dark Energy Electron Regulator. You see, NANO is 10 to the minus 9. PICO is 10 to the minus 12. That makes my treatment 1000 times more effective. It's simple math.
bc |
Bryon,
Next go round try the liquid fuses that i have seen advertised here of late.
Just be sure to not spring a leak.
If you can't hear much difference with that one then i would punt for sure. I would expect a sound that is more, how to describe, well liquid. Duh!
Or not. :-) |
Thanks Kijanki, Al, and Mapman. I appreciate your support throughout this largely absurd endeavor. 05-18-12: Almarg
One piece of data that I think might be worthwhile appending to your report would be what your line voltage is, for the conditions under which you ran the tests (time of day, things turned off, etc.). That's a good idea, Al. I will test it and report back. 05-18-12: Tmsorosk
...too bad you weren't able to test the High Fi tuning Supreme fuses, they really did make a difference and you don't need to listen very closely like you do with other fuse comparisons. NOOOO!!!! You are tempting me to buy YET ANOTHER fuse! I don't know if I can bring myself to do it. Am I really that stupid? Maybe. It's additionally tempting because the Hifi Supreme fuses are designed in collaboration with Mundorf, and I've been very happy with the Mundorf caps (both Supreme and Silver/oil) I've used in the crossovers I built for my speakers. Hmm. 05-18-12: Geoffkait
...whatever happened to the word Terrific you used when you couldn't resist replacing the fuse in the preamp a few days ago? I was all set for a rave review. My expectations were the same as yours, Geoff. The Isoclean fuse WAS perceptibly better than the stock fuse, but not by as large a margin as I was expecting, given my experience the other day. Don't know what to make of that. I still say wait a few days and re-evaluate the sound after the power cords break back in. I agree that long term listening often reveals things that you can't hear during A/B tests. But I can't bring myself to devote a week to testing each fuse. I must try to have some semblance of a life. :-) Bryon |
Bryon, whatever happened to the word Terrific you used when you couldn't resist replacing the fuse in the preamp a few days ago? I was all set for a rave review. :-(. I still say wait a few days and re-evaluate the sound after the power cords break back in.
Geoff |
Bryon,
I nominate you for the next nobel fuse prize! :-)
Nice job. |
Bryoncunningham, to bad you weren't able to test the High Fi tuning Supreme fuses, they really did make a difference and you don't need to listen very closely like you do with other fuse comparisons. I've tried most, It's the first one I would indorse. |
Very nicely done, Bryon. Your disciplined and thorough methodology, and your carefully stated description of the results, in my mind makes your conclusions more persuasive than just about any other fuse comparison I can recall seeing.
And as far as the conclusions themselves are concerned, as you probably suspect I don't find anything about them to be surprising.
One piece of data that I think might be worthwhile appending to your report would be what your line voltage is, for the conditions under which you ran the tests (time of day, things turned off, etc.). While unlikely, it seems conceivable to me that if future reports by others were to include that information some sort of correlation might become apparent.
Best,
-- Al |
Good test, good method, good attitude, good system, good to know.
I realize subjective nature of this test but my ears and my gear are not better than yours while we're not subjectively evaluating change if there is none (or almost none). Great job! |
