Well, one thing good came of this thread I started. Recognition that 12 Angry Men is a great movie.
Who likes The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance? I thing that’s another great movie that has clear relevance to this thread. How? Liberty’s silver handled whip vs Ranse’s gold watch. Merits of silver vs gold, of course.
I've watched that movie so many times. It never gets old. Lee Marvin was so deliciously evil in it and Strother Martin was so creepy as one of his henchmen, along with a young Lee Van Cleef.
John Wayne had more emotional range back in those days and used it to portray some darker sides to his characters. He was even better in The Searchers. And let's not forget good old Jimmy Stewart. From a timid practicing lawyer to the one who stole Wayne's girl (though she never saw it that way) only to become the Senator who owed it all to The Duke. Great movie.
Sorry about going off on tangent but if you like that one, check out Donovan's Reef. It's in a lighter vein but has Wayne and Marvin in one of the best pairings Hollywood has ever done.
I talked with a software engineer who also had a masters degree in electrical engineering. He said, "Let me look at it."
About an hour later he came to me and said, "I've found the problem, let me show you." He had found a 250 kHz signal modulated onto the power sine wave.
You said it all buckhorn_cortez He as an engineer measured and he found. There's non of that going on here with the pro side of fuses can sound better, also when they are reversed.
georgehifi "I talked with a software engineer who also had a masters degree in electrical engineering. He said, "Let me look at it.""
About an hour later he came to me and said, "I’ve found the problem, let me show you." He had found a 250 kHz signal modulated onto the power sine wave. You said it all buckhorn_cortez
He as an engineer measured and he found. There’s non of that going on here with the pro side of fuses can sound better, also when they are reversed.
Cheers George
Are you feeling a little groggy this morning, George? Of course engineers have measured fuses. Don't tell me you didn't get the memo. You can go back to sleep now.
Lee J. Cobb who played Juror #10 (the last holdout) was also great of course in On the Waterfront as mob boss Johnny Friendly. Also as Willy Loman in Death of a Salesman.
georgehifi Of course engineers have measured fuses.
Not in the way you promote them, they wouldn’t be stupid enough.
Cheers George
>>>>>If you’re pretending to be dense you’re doing an excellent job. ( Juror #2 from 12 Angry Men)
Who do you think measured the directionality of fuses that are shown in the HiFi Tuning data sheets? Engineers. And they measured fuses in EXACTLY the way I promote them. I.e., conductivity is better in one direction than the other. Duh!
Time for a fuse measurements recap. Interpretation of measurements. All aboard!
INTERPRETATION OF MEASUREMENTS (HiFi Tuning data sheets)
(verbatim)
There is a measurable difference in directivity of fuses. Mostly that will be due to the way the melting wire is manufactured. The difference is in the range of 5 % . That is in the range of variations due to the factoring process, but the difference is measurable with all types of fuses.
The resistance of the fuse itself is dependent on the length and thickness of the melting wire. At pure DC- resistance measurements, of the commercial available fuses, the solder type with leads gives the best results. Worst results gives the fuse with a glass tube and spiral shaped melting wire.
The high end fuses all give better results in conductivity, the cryogenically treated fuses from HiFi-Tuning give the best results, while the rhodium coated fuse from Padis gives the highest DC- resistance.
For DC applications it ́s recommended to use the solder type fuse or the cryogenically treated fuses from HiFi-Tuning Germany.
The drop in resistance up to the factor of 8 is clearly measurable and also could be detected in listening test.
Fuses with a glass tube and a spiral shaped melting wire are additionally by a factor of 20 more sensitive to micro phonic effects. Fuses with a glass tube and a straight wire still by a factor of 5.
Modjeski tested the resistance of the Hi-Fi tuning fuses in both directions, and found a difference of 0.038 milliohms. I don't know about 5%, but 0.038 milliohms is an EXTREMELY small difference. I have no doubt that fuse directionality proponents will say the difference in sound is due to other factors. Like what? Oh yeah, wire directionality ;-).
Roger called and talked to both the Hi-Fi Tuning fuse U.S. distributor, and the fuses German designer. Neither knew what the term "high breaking capacity" means. Roger strongly advises against putting a Hi-Fi Tuning Fuse in a DC circuit (tubes run on DC), as a fuse lacking hbc will not protect an amp---by blowing, when a tube goes bad---as they all eventually do. Even a new tube with a short will blow a fuse capable of performing that function, which the HFTF in a DC circuit is not.
Roger Modjeski characterized the Hi-Fi Tuning Fuse as "junk". But then he's delusional ;-).
Geoffkait 7-16-2017 (quoting the HiFi Tuning paper) There is a measurable difference in directivity of fuses. Mostly that
will be due to the way the melting wire is manufactured. The difference
is in the range of 5 % . That is in the range of variations due to the
factoring process, but the difference is measurable with all types of
fuses.
From the threads I linked to in my post above dated 7-13-2017:
Almarg
In fact, all or nearly all of the directional differences in resistance
were vastly smaller than 5%, with the exception of the "standard glass
fuse." However, even in that case, if per my comment and Roger's
comments the OVERALL resistance for both directions is insignificant,
the DIFFERENCE in resistance between the two orientations will certainly
be insignificant.
Roger Modjeski
From the Tuning Fuse data sheet their 2 amp slow blow 5x20 fuse has a
resistance of 24.077 milliohms in one direction and 24.115 in the other
direction and 26.257 in the holder. If a butterfly flew by while the
measurements were taking place we might see a bigger difference than the
0.038 milliohm difference in direction. Of course it might depend on
which direction the butterfly was flying. But never mind, the direction
measurements were made with DC and we are using these fuses in AC
circuits. Perhaps if the butterfly flies clockwise vs counterclockwise
there will be a difference.
Sorry I just had to put that in to keep up with all the humor that has been presented here.
[Note: 0.038 milliohms is 0.000038 ohms]
Almarg
Regarding the measurements described in the HFT paper ... which purport to support the notion of fuse directionality:
IMO those numbers are so miniscule as to be:
(a)Laughable.
(b)Very
possibly attributable to changes in the voltage of the battery in the
measurement meter, from measurement to measurement (each measurement
imposing a slight drain on the battery), and from minute to minute. Or
if the meter was AC powered, to the very slight differences in AC line
voltage that may occur from minute to minute, as various loads are
turned on and off at nearby locations.
(c)Very possibly
attributable to differences in contact pressure and contact area between
the meter’s probe tips and the contacts on the fuse. The paper presents
separate measurements of fuse resistance as measured in a fuseholder
(for just one direction), indicating that the direction-related
measurements were performed by touching the meter leads directly to the
contacts on the fuse.
(d)Perhaps even contributed to by
differences in the resistance of the measurer’s body, that would have
been paralleled with the resistance of the fuse if he or she had fingers
on the probe tips and/or the fuse contacts while the measurements were
being taken.
(e)If Geoff’s comments about all wires being
significantly directional are to be believed, then these differences
would be totally swamped by both the resistances and the alleged
direction-related resistance differences of the vastly longer associated
wiring. In the case of mains fuses, that would include the power
transformer and the power wiring in the component, as well as the power
cord and the AC wiring in and outside of the house....
.... Yet despite all that, and despite similar comments about the HiFi Tuning
measurements that have been provided in numerous other posts going all
the way back to the "Fuses that Matter" thread that began in 2012, Geoff
continues to assert that the HiFi Tuning measurements support the
notion that fuses are inherently directional.
bdp24 - Well, if I can be so bold at least we now know Roger Modjeski must be deaf if he can’t hear the difference in fuses. He’s deaf and stubborn. Amp manufacturers! Harumph! Uh, Mr. Smarty Pants - Why should there be ANY difference whatsoever in measured resistance if fuses are not directional? They should measure exactly equal. He’ll-loo! None of you Barko Lounger experts have figured that one out, eh? Besides, HiFi Tuning acknowledges the differences in measured resistance don't compor entirely with the sonic differences. It's a Strawman argument on your part to put words in anyone's mouth that anyone thinks there must be some other, as yet unexplained, reason for the sometimes great difference in the sound between fuses and between directions.
Geoffkait 7-16-2017
Mr. Smarty Pants - Why should there be any difference whatsoever in
measured resistance if fuses are not directional? They should measure
exactly equal. He’ll-loo! None of you Barko Lounger experts have figured
that one out, eh?
If you are addressing me, Geoff, one of the quotes in my post just above clearly states three possible reasons, all of them related to sources of imprecision in the measurement process. The measured differences in directionality that were reported in the HFT paper were so miniscule that any or all of those reasons become legitimate possibilities.
And then a fourth possibility would be the butterfly that Mr. Modjeski referred to :-)
Sorry, Al, I wasn’t addressing you specifically, though now that I think about it.... My response to your (silly) argument concerning precision of measurements, answer me this: why do the (small) measured differences ALWAYS correlate with the listening tests? It there was an issue with precision that would not be the case. Follow? It can’t be the fuse holders since the HiFi Tuning data didn’t measure the fuses in their holders. If they (and Roger Modjeski) HAD measured them in their holders, and came up with what you call insignificant differences or differences that are not precise that clearly means that your and Atmasphere’s theory of the fuse holders causing the differences must be wrong. Very wrong. Or did Atmasphere somehow measure more precisely than the Germans? Really?Assuming he actually did, which I'm now not so sure of. You can’t have it both ways. Capish? Another question: you haven’t really read the HiFi Tuning data sheets very carefully, have you? 😛
Al, are you making a run for this year's Nobel for Patience? Just wanted to warn you, I think that they retired it and gave it to Ralph in perpetuity. But good luck, anyhow.
... you haven’t really read the HiFi Tuning data sheets very carefully, have you? 😛
The answer to that should be clear to those who have read one of my posts that I referenced here on 7-13-2017. That being the first of my posts dated 5-14-2012 in the "Fuses That Matter" thread, which appears near the middle of this page.
My response to your (silly) argument concerning precision of
measurements, answer me this: why do the (small) measured differences
ALWAYS correlate with the listening tests?
0.000038 ohms doesn't correlate with anything (except perhaps for Mr. Modjeski's butterfly), and furthermore would be completely swamped by countless other factors, one of which I alluded to in item (e) of my post earlier today. I don't mean to be insulting, but anyone with a basic understanding of electronic design knows that.
Regards, -- Al
P.S: Thanks, Terry. No problem if they've given the award to Ralph in perpetuity. He's definitely earned it, over many years.
I’ve already wrapped up the Nobel Prize for Patience. Al might be in the running for the Density prize however. That one’s a very close race, though, Al and Atmosphere are neck and neck. Listen, all kidding aside, this is not rocket science. If you doubt small differences in resistance for fuses are audible, then I suggest you roll up your sleeves and get to work on something you might understand better than fuses - cables. That’s right cables.
Since all wire is directional, cable are directional, too, right? As far as I can tell no one has signed in and refuted that so I guessing one of the usual jokers must be thinking to himself, gee, I don’t know, what if he’s right? All you need to do is measure the difference in resistance of any unshielded cable, measuring from end A to end B and then vice versa - speaker cable, interconnect, whatever. Could be Radio Shack, I don't care. Anti Cables speaker cables would be a good candidate since they’re something everyone can understand and everyone can see, since they’re not shielded or covered with a jacket. See how simple I’m making it? Now, you tell me, is there a difference in resistance one way to the other. Final exam: what does that difference mean? Extra credit: are the Arrows on Anti Cables there just to lure gullible audiophiles?
Yeah, Roger Modjeski (and Ralph Karsten) are deaf. Amazing how they can, in spite of that, design and build such good sounding electronics (and in the case of Modjeski, ESL loudspeakers). Beethoven incarnate! And you, Geoff, you have designed and built what amplification circuits? Such hubris!
bdp242,496 postsYeah, Roger Modjeski (and Ralph Karsten) are deaf. Amazing how they can, in spite of that, design and build such good sounding electronics (and in the case of Modjeski, ESL loudspeakers). Beethoven incarnate! And you, Geoff, you have designed and built what amplification circuits? Such hubris!
+5,000
bdp24 had to look it up though
hubrisˈhjuːbrɪs/noun
"synonyms:arrogance, conceit, conceitedness, haughtiness, pride, vanity, self-importance, self-conceit, pomposity, superciliousness, feeling of superiority; hauteur; informaluppitiness, big-headedness"the self-assuring hubris among economists was shaken in the late 1960s"
bdp24 and reubent - sorry, fellers, you’re following the wrong sheep. Exhibit A, the page on wire directionality on the Audioquest website, is linked below. Read em and weep.
Excerpt:
"In one direction, the music will sound relatively flat and a little grainy, as though being forced through a screen door. In the opposite direction, the obstruction is removed and music will be communicated with a natural ease, depth, and an open invitation to pleasure. When presented with a cable whose conductors have been controlled for the correct low-noise directionality, a listener feels a sense of comfort and relief: Ahh…Music!"
Not to make too fine a point of it, but has anyone here noticed that I have confirmed by measurement that if you place the fuse in backwards that you may indeed hear a difference?
Those that say otherwise raise their hands:
Take another look at my posts on this topic. In all of them you will see that I confirm that what is being claimed as heard could be real and that it can backed up by measurement. The thing that seems to be tripping y’all up is that the measurement confirms what you hear and at the same time shows that the phenomena is **not** due to a fuse being directional but instead just simply the resistance across the fuse is different.
Note that they list different resistances depending on direction. But also note that the resistance is stated in ’mOhms’. Its unclear what the small ’m’ is for, but if that is ’milli’Ohms then their measurements are a mile off.
On the HiFi Tuning fuses we have here, they measure about the same as the leads of the meter do shorted together, about 0.1 ohm. In milli-ohms that would be 100 milli-ohms (but we know that the probes are that much already, so the fuse is much less), so my guess is that by the ’m’ they are probably trying to say ’micro’ (which is normally expressed with a ’u’ which is as close as a keyboard can get to the Greek symbol Mu).
I’m not sure how you would measure that accurately, but one thing is certain and that is the meter and probes used for the test plus minor resistances across the contact of the device itself are likely responsible for any differences seen. Heck, if you simply took the same measurement twice with a meter with that resolution (which is a very expensive meter) you would likely find larger differences without reversing the direction!
So I think we can see that the idea of the manufacturer’s PDF as suggesting directionality is completely false. A better interpretation is that the *average* resistance of the fuse is going to be in that ballpark. I think they have done a mis-service as these numbers, when so obviously misinterpreted, spark a lot of useless debate.
Now I’ve already shown why there is directionality and that its not something within the fuse. This is confirmed by the numbers I’m seeing on the HiFi Tuning PDF- the latter are far too small to play an influence in the voltage drops I’ve measured!
So again: reversing the fuse can be audible, even though the fuse itself is not directional. So the people that hear this and find it repeatable are probably hearing it (unless they are experiencing expectation bias) and those that don’t may not be hearing it (unless they are experiencing expectation bias).
Yeah I read it Ralph and am mystified why Geoff didn’t acknowledge it in his explanation which completely avoided it. It is a truism in audio that MANY things can affect sound, often in quite subtle ways, some more profound, of that i’m a witness . Unfortunately it is often taken as a monetary opportunity for some that make their livelihood by exploiting for profit, sometimes substantial, the differences. Geoff wouldn’t you agree that Audioquest has a vested interested in promoting "truthful hyperbole"? It’s all about marketing savvy and understanding the customer. Hundred dollar fuses, really?😂
Reminds me of a very wise man I knew many years back and a saying he had that never left me,, "you’very got a buck, how do I get it". So WHAT is the "magic" in a hundred buck fuse that makes it cost what it does Geoff, must be marketing costs, right? Or is it literally just worth more than it's weight in gold, or at least close to it.
I’ve been assuming that the "m" in the HFT paper stands for "milli." If in fact it stands for "micro" then the 0.000038 ohm figure that has been cited to illustrate how miniscule the differences are in their measurements for the two directions would actually be 0.000000038 ohms!
Although I’m thinking that "milli" may actually be the correct interpretation. For example this Littelfuse datasheet lists for their 3AG Series 313 glass-bodied 6.3 x 32 mm slow blow 2 amp 250 volt fuse a "cold" resistance of 116.9 milliohms. Which is very close to the numbers shown in the HFT paper for a T 2 amp 6.3 x 32 mm "standard glass fuse" if "m" is interpreted as milli and the commas in their numbers are interpreted as decimal points.
Fuses having significantly higher current ratings have much lower resistances, of course, with the resistance of the 10 amp Littelfuse in that datasheet indicated as 8.3 milliohms, which seems consistent with HFT’s measurements of their own fuses having relatively high current ratings. (Their paper doesn’t provide measurements of standard glass fuses rated above 3.15 amps).
Either way, though, I of course agree with everything else in your post, and it is consistent with and further emphasizes what I, some other members, and others who like yourself are designers of highly respected audio electronics have said here in various fuse-related threads.
tubegroover Yeah I read it Ralph and am mystified why Geoff didn’t acknowledge it in his explanation which completely avoided it. It is a truism in audio that MANY things can affect sound, often in quite subtle ways, some more profound, of that i’m a witness . Unfortunately it is often taken as a monetary opportunity for some that make their livelihood by exploiting for profit, sometimes substantial, the differences. Geoff wouldn’t you agree that Audioquest has a vested interested in promoting "truthful hyperbole"? It’s all about marketing savvy and understanding the customer. Hundred dollar fuses, really?😂
That’s got to be the dumbest thing anyone said so far. What possible financial motive would Audioquest have in promoting cable and wire directionality? Heck, most audiophiles are like you and don’t believe it anyway, and wouldn’t buy it because you think it’s a scam. But to further destroy your silly argument Audioquest is by no means the only cable manufacturer selling directional cables. In fact any cable manufacturer that wants to compete for audiophile dollars must certainly be aware of directionality and actually mark their cables accordingly. Anti Cables obviously, Goertz, and I’m sure many others. Not only that almost all high end cable manufacturers cryogenically treat their cables. Why? To be able to compete. So what have we learned here. It’s performance that drives the market of cables not hyperbole. Duh!
On the data sheets they use m for milli, as in when they write m Amp. One assumes the commas are just the convention in Germany. You know, HiFi Tuning is German.
Now, correct me if I’m wrong but in the interpretation of measurements section on the HiFi Tuning data sheets that I posted the other day the statement is made that the differences in resistance between one direction and another of fuses is generally around 5%. I’m not seeing that; what I’m actually seeing is almost an order of magnitude less than 5%. Agree/disagree? Talk amongst yourselves. Smoke if ya got em.
Geoff, regarding your question just above, in one of my posts here yesterday I had quoted the following statement I made in an earlier fuse-related discussion:
... all or nearly all of the directional differences in resistance
were vastly smaller than 5%, with the exception of the "standard glass
fuse."
However, note that what the paper says is "the difference is in the range of 5%," not "generally around 5%." Differences that are "vastly smaller than 5%" are WITHin the range of 5%. So their statement is arguably accurate, although highly misleading.
atmasphere Not to make too fine a point of it, but has anyone here noticed that I have confirmed by measurement that if you place the fuse in backwards that you may indeed hear a difference?
>>>Let me help you out. What we are actually saying is that not only is there a difference between one way and the other but that it’s PREDICTABLE which way will sound better than the other - when you control the manufacturing process. There is no backwards or forwards! Didn’t you read the Audioquest paper? That’s why we say fuses are directional. That’s why we say ALL WIRE is directional. It’s because of the wire manufacturing process that the wire becomes "directional." So, it’s not just that it SOUNDS DIFFERENT, it SOUNDS BETTER one way than the other. and it's predictable if you control the process. That’s the whole point. We don’t even have to get into the atomic physics of why that’s true. Does that help?
Now, cable manufacturers who mark their cables with arrows obviously control the manufacturing process. Not so sure fuse manufacturers control the process of fuse manufacture, which is not really a problem since the user can simply try any fuse both ways and pick the direction that sounds best. And for cables and interconnects that aren’t marked with arrows then obviously the user should try both directions and see which one is best.
What possible financial motive would Audioquest have in promoting cable and wire directionality?
Cables can be built in such a way that they can be directional. The classic from of this is of course an interconnect with XLR terminations. It can only be plugged in one way.
But RCA cables can be built so that the shield is only tied at one end. Often this type of cable can express a directionality depending on how well the equipment in the system is grounded.
So there is a very practical reason for Audioquest to promote such a thing; hard to say if its financial but that is your speculation not mine.
Now let's entertain for a moment that raw wire and fuses are directional. Let's further say that you put them all in the same orientation in the equipment. The result would be high distortion, as the wire and fuse(s) would act like a diode, and thus rectify the audio signal. This is one way in which fuzzboxes (an electric guitar effect pedal) operate. Fuzzboxes are called that because of the sort of distortion they make.
As you can see, in the right hands a fuzzbox can really be a nice effect:
But it does not work for hifi even though it sounds cool on a guitar. Its exactly the opposite of hifi: Distortion!
Now let's instead put all the wire and fuses in such a way that they are not all creating one series diode. In this case, the signal will still get rectified, only in a variety of different ways. This too will cause distortion.
Its pretty clear that most audiophiles would like to (and do) avoid that phenomena. To that end, non-directional wire and fuses should be sought out! If you have the pesky kind that is directional, count on it to add distortion to whatever signal is flowing through it.
What I haven't learned Geoff is why does a "simple" AC fuse sell for 100.00? Yes, I have listened to SR red and black, oh there are differences for sure but for the money there are more substantive ways to spend in my estimation. I also experimented with a gold fuse years back in may Berning's amp, it was a gift from a fellow Berning owner, marginal improvement, I think. It retailed for 40.00. Haven't personally witnessed the directional cable phenomena but did experiment years back, didn't hear differences, Stereovox, Cardas, Harmonic Tech and I'm sure a few others, it's been a while. Reversing fuses? I'll pass, I have to draw the line somewhere otherwise I'd have too little time to do what drew me to this place to begin with. Agree concerning cryogenic treatment on wires AND tubes. So you see we don't disagree on everything.
Thanks Al and Ralph for your explanations and for keeping it real.
Atmosphere, if you’re pretending to be dense you’re doing an excellent job. Don’t you get it, we’ve already eliminated all of your cable directionality causes. It's the wire itself. Nobody said there aren't other issues like shielding. As the Audioquest dude said you have to be aware of al of them and deal with them, CONTROL them, accordingly. Capish?
@tubegroover I concur. I feel that aftermarket fuse manufacturers are simply cashing in on the fuse upgrade mentality. Are there differences-Yes. Are they worth the money-YMMV B
All aftermarket fuses are not priced at $100. One is $175. So what? Don’t be a knucklehead. Some aftermarket fuses are much less? Some are $20, some are $5. So what? Of course price is not the subject of this thread. Who cares? Like anything else in the hobby prices vary. For anything you can name prices vary all over the place. So what? If you want to listen to cheap junk that’s your prerogative.
I think we've finally narrowed it down. YMMV is the final arbiter since it's up to the individual to decide how much cost for how much further enjoyment. My MPG went up considerably since I've reversed the fuses to appreciate the costs incurred almost two years ago. Money well spent as well forgotten. I've spent more on wine tastings in the meantime. 🍷🍷🍷
This is like the snake eating it's tail. Can we end this now?
I've been at this game along time, in cable manufacturing, years gone by, I've reversed many a cable to tell the difference in sound, never heard it by turning a cable over and changing direction... unless of course the cable was terminated at one end, which we did shield many interconnects, for us, unshielded always sounded better, but on this fuse debate, OK, I'll bite, I have for the first time in my life just ordered some boutique fuses....... Someone, Anyone, tell me what to measure with an VOM or LCR meter or any other way to know what direction to drop these fuses in.... I really don't want to listen to them a week each way to figure it out... If it is that obvious, someone should have figured this out... So
@geoffkait You may think that its pretty obvious, but in cable manufacturing that isn't the case.... Impedance, DC resistance, inductance, capacitance, skin effect all come into the effect of a cable.... Of course here we are speaking of a simple wire, maybe I shouldn't assume that a tasty gourmet fuse would have more than simple DC resistance as a parameter.
@atmosphere Hi Ralph, yep, read your post, it makes all the sense in the world. So understanding your own equipment will go along way in getting this right the first time. Appreciate you brother, Tim
timlub @geoffkait You may think that its pretty obvious, but in cable manufacturing that isn’t the case.... Impedance, DC resistance, inductance, capacitance, skin effect all come into the effect of a cable.... Of course here we are speaking of a simple wire, maybe I shouldn’t assume that a tasty gourmet fuse would have more than simple DC resistance as a parameter.
>>>>You might possibly be overthinking this. I never said it was that simple. Obviously other factors/parameters are involved but fuses always sound best when the resistance is minimum, I.e., conductivity is highest. You can forget about the other parameters. Were you seriously considering measuring skin effect? 😀
I think you would probably agree there are many parameters involved with testing fuses other than the fuse parameters themselves, no? Parameters involved with the test itself.
I suggest you take a gander at the data sheets for fuse measurements on the HiFi Tuning website which are linked to somewhere on this thread.
By the way, when it comes to fuses nothing makes "all the sense in the world."
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