Funny how streaming/digital still chases that analog benchmark.
Funny how manufacturers of streaming and digital gear continues to chase that elusive analog sound. I thought digital was better?
Before you all get your panties in a wad I enjoy both Digital and Analog but much rather listen to an analog source than digital.
So today I see Innuos Introduces The PhoenixNET – A Network Switch For Audiophiles @ only $3500.00
Guess I do not see the point you can get superior sound for say $2500 or less with a decent turntable cartridge combo and phono stage. Hell Clear Audio has an all in one for $2500.
I can't understand why audiophiles spend so much money on a turn table, cartridge and vinyl? I hear often a lot of noise with the needle is tracking on a record. Andy, you have to get up, wash the record you want to listen to and spend all that money on vinyl. I prefer to stream music through my BlueSound Node 2i. I can sit in comfort and never have to get up and select music from a huge Tidal library. I must be deaf because I don't hear that much difference other the noise from the needle tracking on a record groove. I also think there must be a reason why Tidal offered MQA Master recordings. It is my understanding MQA offers the original recording that has not been remixed or tampered with. However, what if the original recording was not a very high quality recording to begin with. I also preferred the sound of my BlueSound without adding the DAC I purchased. The bass sounded thin. However, it was nice to view what the bit rates and degree of hi-res the recording was.
You all know more than I do, as I am just learning and I am not as wealthy as those in the group to buy such expensive systems. Besides, my wife would kill me anyway. We use the living room that was only used 3 times per year to watch movies and to listen to music. My speakers, REL S2 subwoofers and cabinet look beautiful as well.
I ended up buying a pair of Paradigm Prestige 85F towers and I still wonder if I should have purchase a pair of Focal 948 towers. When I listened to the Focal's I didn't think they produced enough bass extension. However, perhaps I should have considered adding the REL subwoofers at the time of purchase to fill in the lows. However, it would have been difficult to get my wife to accept the price tag of adding the REL's. Another concern I had was the size of the Focal 948's.
I find it remarkable that
records sound as good as they do given the obsolete technology.
Perhaps the analog LP technology is not nearly as obsolete as you think. Obsolescence probably applies more rightfully to CDs, although I think they are also going to be around for a long time.
My 18 year old has his own music studio with some great kit - some beautiful monitors his grandfather made the cabinets for out of cherry; some 9x2 line arrays so his band can hear themselves well; two subs to fill things out; Mac mini server; nice DAC, room treatment, DSP profile to correct what the treatment can’t; and from what I hear through the walls a taste for all the genres and generations of music I’ve heard of and far far more. He writes, plays and records his own music of broadcast quality. He’s off to a music academy in September.
He’s interested in vinyl like he is interested in 35mm film cameras, clocks with pendulums, telephones with dials, paper maps, stick shift cars, encyclopaedias, lending libraries, department stores, V8 engines, coal fired power stations, police officers on horses, the postal service, and trains. It doesn’t matter how often I say “but a V8 has soul”. He will say “a Tesla is faster, cheaper, greener, smoother, quieter, smarter, safer, more considerate, and exciting.” We are both right. To his credit he doesn’t say I’m wrong.
And yet another assumption by Goopson.....your blinders at your age are remarkable... More insults no meat....we’re not talking about how good headphones are ..... which by the way.. The old relics of the seventies for headphones were quite good...just somewhat less portable and less likely to be fed over compressed hs....... So your so in tune with 17 year olds eh...Goopson....wonder why that is... funny you still use insults to respond back to the sarcasm, sent in reply to your own insults...predictable. .... But no metric on the context forwarded....you can’t see the question till you move your self bias out of the answer..... So what amazingly produced music are 17 year olds listening to these days....Since you seem to know....I’d ask my 4 kids or their six kids....but you seem to have assumed you and you alone are all knowing...... Which is actually impossible when your being so dismissive. .... in fact so much so....you still can’t see the context or the appreciation I alluded to.....are you 17.... that would explain a lot...or just so in tune you beleive your above us all....that also would explain more and much more plausable. ...... No wonder all those true knowledgeable guys that once flourished here don’t post anymore.....I mean with guys like you....why would they...
@ bluemood
I can relate. I have a daughter into vinyl as well. I also learn from her and my others the newest forms and ways. I agree we can learn from them.... but I must also concede....it seems more a rarity in general now to observe it.....sadly....
@Larry
If you can hear the needle tracking from your seated listening position....their is nothing wrong with your ears... Now your ability to properly set up and play vinyl without the noise. ...thats on you... Digital is good so is convenience....but dismissing something you didn't master isn't quite the same argument. Its just reassuring yourself on why you chose digital....and that's a reasonable choice... Too many of us have very quiet playing analog front ends to make your experience the norm... The important thing is, choice. That's what is so good about this Era.
As with many things in life, it's not that black and white (vinyl vs. digital and which is best). If you had an unlimited system budget and >= $20K for your source component budget and assuming high quality material then vinyl (IME) can be superior under these conditions. But, for the vast majority of us where your source budget is 2 - 3 $ figures digital is superior. Reason being that digital has had less than half the time vinyl has had to develop and mature so the best of the best remains vinyl however digital is catching up. Also, notice how I said vinyl and not analog since the best R2R beats the best vinyl (IME). Ultimately, it's nice to have so many choices in formats with tons of new and remastered music available, a great time to be an audiophile!
Skypunk.....nice house. I had a thorens td150 until the motor died. My speakers are audio nirvana super 15 alnico full range drivers in ported bass reflex cabs almost as big as I am. I haven't heard anything yet that tops them and I am including Wilson audio..lol. My forever speakers.
But a well designed streaming system does something that neither LP’s or CD’s can do alone. Namely it allows me to quickly and easily enjoy the music on many other levels. I can for example: 1) read notes on the album 2) read a biography of the musician(s) 3)find out what other albums they have out, who they were influenced mostly by and who followed them. 4) explore related artists. 5) skip over to allmusic.com or anywhere else on the internet to enrich my experience and understanding of the music 6) tag things I want to revisit or skip or reorder my listening etc. etc. This is why streaming will replace both the LP and the CD
. First, You have a very good vinyl playback system. I suspect your digital is among the same quality. But when I see all your distractions to listening to music it is no doubt why you prefer digital. I have both which are quite good. But when I want to do such things as you have posted, I too prefer digital. But I don't consider that listening. IMO, that is hearing music. There is a difference.
@golfmd2
When it’s our time the vast majority of us will have our record collections old at estate sale for a fraction of their cost,
Like many I disposed of my vinyl in the 80's for cd's. When I got back into vinyl in the mid 90's, I paid $0.10- $1.00 apiece. I have amassed 4K. I have only bought a few since the vinyl resurgence. I've actually thought about selling mine because I'm sure I can make a large profit. But I doubt that will happen. My point is that there are quite a few that could do the same. But I agree with you at normal purchase price. Oh, BTW. 98% of those 4K are VG+ & NM
@midareff1
If you chose to thi8nk your clicks and pops sound better and like spending time cleaning vinyl and refiling it be my guest.....
This is the absolute give away that you and all the others who say things like "clicks and pops" are really clueless about what a good vinyl system sounds like. As to the other aspects of maintenance, you are right. Digital is convenient which is why many people like it. But it used to be standard procedure for us vinylphiles to tell those who wanted to start into vinyl, that , if they didn't like the ritual (the dance) they would NOT like vinyl.
@bluemoodriver
To his credit he doesn’t say I’m wrong. Some of us could learn a lot from our teenagers
I had the great privilege of teaching teens many yrs ago. I DID learn a lot from them. Their idealism often will shock the older generation who's had that beaten out of them by life's experience. But they lack experience and can only call on theory. IMO Ideals and theory is the only way to really teach in a classroom setting. Unfortunately, when experience meets theory, its often not quite as straight forward as theory had taught them. My son struggled with this about a year after HS. Don't know how I came up with this idea about wisdom, theory & idealism but maybe it will be helpful if your son experiences the same type dilemma. He sounds like a food guy. Too bad that so many people take themselves so serious and don't know how to agree to disagree, especially about such a highly subjective issue.
I am not sure if you have noticed it, but you have been insulting me in virtually every post you have posted and multiple times in each of those posts. It does not look good. Do not embarass your grandchildren.
"So what amazingly produced music are 17 year olds listening to these days....Since you seem to know...."
I did not mention amazingly produced music. I was mentioning the possibility that the sound the age group you implied is clueless listens to may be better than what you listened to when you were 17.
"...or just so in tune you beleive your above us all...."
I do not think I am above all of you, not at all. However, you are making me reconsider such thoughts when applied to some.
Some digital may attempt to emulate the sound of analog/vinyl. That is digital aimed at certain demographics. A little past their prime, who grew up listening to records, currently have enough disposable income to be extracted from them under the "sounds like analog" idea, and maybe a few more determinants. That seems like a wise and very common business approach. Give people what they want. Just check all the "extra bass" signs on earphones.
The rest of digital, I suspect, is perfectly content being digital and better and better as time goes by. It does not chase dreams of the times past.
It may be that, as the number of people enamored with the sound of records decreases due to natural forces, in relatively near future nobody would think of attempting to make anything sound like a record, much less to advertise it that way.
Here is my 2 cents - the goal of my system is to reproduce a ‘live performance’ - not the vinyl recording! I love live jazz - I have access to one of the best Jazz Clubs in the USA - the Jazz Corner in Hilton Head Island, SC. That is my goal - I retired my Thornes Turntable and SME tonearm years ago. I am all in with my LUMIN streaming Tidal MQA.
I have an 15 ips TASCAM, a clear audio innovation with an Air Tight pc1 supreme and a lumin streamer (I use TIDAL) all running through the same system (boulder pre amp, pass 250.8 amp and TAD CR-1s). They all have their place in my life. the epitome of high fidelity is clearly 1st generation 15 ips tapes. Frankly anyone who has listen to my gear is blown away. But streaming through the system sounds pretty darn good as well. And no one can beat reminiscing down memory lane recalling music I listened to 50 years ago and streaming it while just sitting down....
It all has a place, it all has its pro’s and con’s. And while there is no doubt that listening to Vanessa Fernandez covering Kasmire on R2R hits a high fidelity zenith, there is nothing better than streaming obscure songs of my youth effortlessly (Dr. Hook and the medicine show anyone?)
Midriff if you have pops and clicks then you really need to clean your vinyl dude. Playing dirty vinyl is like loving a woman who isn't clean. Sure you can do it, but you won't like the outcome.
Getting very mellow (blitzed) off of a bottle of a spirit distilled by the countrymen of my forefathers....Irish whiskey. Please excuse any out of the ordinary pontificating on my part.
Dirty vinyl and unclean women do hold true though....some things you can't leave in Vegas bro. You just can't.
"I am not sure if you have noticed it, but you have been insulting me in virtually every post you have posted and multiple times in each of those posts....."
You get what you give goopson. Its amazing your ability to twist and now you want to play victim . Your first post directed at me was insulting and I hadn't even referenced or acknowledged you...you get what you give.. And using grandkids to bolster you as victim and me as the bad guy....glad to see your wearing your skirt again...
Has-been... get'em dude... make him wear the skirt.... a frilly little tartan thing. Lots of rouge cut the sailors like that sort of thing...
Audio shouldn't be a competition. Listen to what you like. If digital totally totes your goats then so be it. If analog gets your motor running, and it should because its the best in the world, then fine. Just don't make assumptions based on what you read written by someone else. Buy the equipment, do your own UNBIASED tests, then sell that digital cap and upgrade your phono cartridge.
Glupson I read your post a few years in the thread. If you want to hear totally fine ana.og vinyl, then PLEASE come to my house. Seriously the offer is open to you. I don't h a very the best listening room or the most confy chair, but I am willing to let you listen to the best that I can reproduce. I am totally willing to put my money where my mouth is because I believe strongly enough that vinyl is enough to stand on it own
Thanks for the offer although I do not know where you are located.
I am aware of analog (mostly vinyl in my case) as I have bought more records than CDs over the last, let's say, year. In another thread, I bought one of those White Hot Stampers and am awaiting delivery. I have very pedestrian set-up and am aware that better things sound better. I have heard some.
I am not sure what made me appear as whatever I appear as, but I got involved in this particular thread at the point of "analog is standard". That I do disagree with as virtually everything these days is, and has been for quite a while, digital. I have not even remotely attempted to claim which one is "better" (analog vs. digital) except maybe the point that everyone seems to agree with anyway (digital is way more convenient). I do not think I mentioned even that advantage here yet.
Even the part about record collections being worthless was response to "they are investment" and was only regarding that statement. It had nothing to do with "analog vs. digital quality" tug of war. That war is not interesting to me. Thinking about why someone would market their digital product as "like analog" does spark my curiosity. The answer may be more than "because analog sounds better". To me, my favorite songs sound better on SW, or at least MW, radio. At least they did while they could still be heard there.
My dear glupson I live in Durham N.C. My modest house is open to you always. We need a new board walk, a new kitchen, but what we have is open to you. We may be messy, but we are honest and true as are the Irish fron which I come. My equipment isn't the best but I can be proud of it until I can do better.
I should blame skypunk for starting this thread a year too late. I was in Durham about this time last year, right before this epidemic in the U.S.A. started. I would have stopped for a listen for sure, but you would not want me to help you with the boardwalk and kitchen. I am as remote from woodworking as it gets. I could clean the mess.
Hey Op, I know you are upset that with equally well mastered recordings that a $150 Chinese DAC blows away your $10,000 plus work of art vinyl setup, but did you really need to create a thread to vent about it?
It's amazing that one can be so arrogant about supposed aircraft knowledge but not know that the standard F18 only has 9 usable missles and the Super Hornet only has 11 in absolute maximum configuration.
@audio2design........ @audio2design........ bro you are so full of sea monkey poo its amazing .
@glubson.... might want to see the mess before offering to help clean it up my friend. The offer does stand if you are in the area. It would be nice to share my audio system with a fellow audiophile.
@audio2design........ @audio2design........ bro you are so full of sea monkey poo its amazing .
99.9% of the pontificating here have no clue what is actually being recorded. You have never heard what is coming off a microphone and what is being recording. You blather on about R-R without a clue of all the artifacts that bring what is played back away from the actual music that was played. You like the result, often, but personal preference is not an absolute and for others their preference is much different.
Properly mastered for the medium, yes that $150 Chinese DAC presents a more accurate, more honest to what was played, and if live, a more accurate rendition of the live performance than that expensive turntable or R-R you covet. Sure that room with the expensive speakers and crappy acoustics may benefit from a more centered image from the poor crosstalk of vinyl. It can help compensate for the acoustic mess. That hiss on R-R can help extract details lost in the distortion of that expensive tube gear and that compression from magnetic saturation can emulate loudness compensation at typical non realistic listening levels. But all that is just painting a pig.
I totally agree with you and you are not deaf, the ones who hear superior sound from vinyl are in denial and in nostalgia.
Vinyl by design and laws of physics, can NOT record base frequencies and hence need trickery like RIAA curve matching to get it to barely sound reasonable. The magic is always in the phono preamp & the RIAA filters.
Get one proper DAC and you are done, you can listen to the original recording 5000 miles away without losing a single bit.
Audio2design .... spoken like a pontificating want to be of EITHER analog or digital? Might we be a poor batista of questionable descent .... namely not irish? I pose to you this my questionable lad... have you ever heard a fine digital or analog system? My offer stands open to you as well....Irish or not... to hear a fine analog system. I promise to not let your irishness detract from your welcome there lad
Audiophile network switches are snake oil. A $35 netgear learning bridge will do EXACTLY the same thing. Packets whizz around at 10 Gbits/sec on these guys, you think they need to introduce anything special for 300kHz at best.
What a joke...
Before you say anything, I do work for Broadcom as a senior software engineer and we design almost 80% of the routing & bridging chips in the world, and I do know how they work.
All you need to make sure is that you keep them (especially the walwart power supply) away from sensitive phono lines, that is all.
Rita is my true Irish friend there laddy. It makes me hear the highest of highs and the lowest of lows. Actually it was a great invention of the recording industry to compensate for the drawbacks of physical vinyl. It does a great job of it too.
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