Boy oh boy, people really get upset when someone disagrees with them. If you don't like my suggestions simply ignore them. People pushing room correction devices and the like is snake oil in my opinion. It does not matter how perfect the room is, if the gear is inadequate the overall sound will be inadequate no matter what room you put it in.
This is a forum for ideas for the original poster, take these comments as such. That is the point of all of this, no?
Why not relax and provide the poster some ideas on how he can fix his problem instead of pushing a single-minded agenda? |
Shakeydeal, The room does not always contribute 75-80% of the end result. That sounds like advertising by someone who makes or sells acoustical treatment. A recommendation for room treatment is ridiculous without knowing anything about the OP's room or how the system is set up. If the OP's room is 30'x20' and the speakers and listening position are arranged for near field listening would you still say the room is contributing 75-80% and room treatment will solve the OP's problems? |
Bradluke0, I disagree. Furniture, window treatment (drapes), bookcases, etc. are in fact very effective room treatment. Compare an empty room to a furnished room and hear the difference while clapping your hands.
David Manley, the founder of VTL and Manley Labs, designed a studio for his ViTaL recordings. The studio was designed of wood with specific angles and notches in the walls to control the room's sound. There was no commercial acoustical treatment at all.
Room treatment is necessary at times, but lately it seems to be highly overrated and in many cases used as a band aid to overcome problems within the system. Throwing more and more money at a system is not always the answer to achieving good sound. |
Arbuckle,
Your statement is ridiculous considering the room contributes maybe 75-80% of the end result.
Shakey |
Hi all ! Rrog......If he has no real room treatments how can treating the room be ridiculous ? Regular curtains , pictures , etc most times do nothing to tame the room . If they did nobody would make or use real room treatments , either commercial or DYI . |
I don't believe anyone has recommended that the OP treat his room without first ascertaining if it's going to help. Testing a room's response simply allows one to have a baseline of understanding as to what degree the room is contributing to or inhibiting good sound. As to the "lipstick on a pig" comment, I know in the past I've never been able to get anything resembling great sound out of an untreated bad room. The room IS an integral component in the audio chain and the most overlooked IMO. I'm lucky enough to have a good room in my present residence and adding minimal room treatments was every bit the equal of upgrading components and it positively affected the sorts of problems the OP mentions. Again, I'm not saying the room IS the problem. However, spending less than $100 on the test meter and test cd will quickly allow one to have objective knowledge about the possible causes of the problem. It is admittedly sometimes difficult to know how to interpret and act upon the insight such testing gives without knowledge of acoustics. At the very least, it allows one to see whether or not moving speakers this way and that is smoothing out or exacerbating room nodes. |
I think Rrog makes a good point to simplify your system.
Also, the only time I heard Classe I did not care for it, it really lacked micro dynamics compared with Rowland gear that we were comparing it to. |
Earrings on a monkey could look quite nice, I can imagine. But earrings on a pig..no, no good, better lipstick. |
Arbuckle, Is lipstick on a pig like earrings on a monkey? |
You have quite a conglomeration of components and cables going on there. The fact that you are unhappy with the sound is a perfect example of buying recommended components without knowing how they will work together. This is why, when in doubt, it is better to stay with like brands of various components since they are designed to work together. Your SFL-1 is known to be on the forward/thin side and I have no idea how it mates with the Classe, but the Classe amps I have heard after the DR series sounded less then full bodied to me.
For starters I recommend trimming your system down to locate the problem. Take the subwoofer and DAC out of the system and just work with the basic system. Try a warmer tube in your preamp and experiment with different cables before changing components.
Without knowing a single thing about the room or how the system is set up in the room a recommendation for room treatment is absolutely rediculous. |
It took me many iterations, time and money to get the sound quality I was looking for from my system. I found one key issue is the mains wiring, and in particular power supply grounding i.e. are all components grounded or should only the preamp and/or amplifier be grounded. However do be careful in removing the earth connection to a component - first check the manual whether this is a potential safety risk.
The other issue may be the loudspeakers - in particular the tweeter. I don't know what drive units you using, but it took decent and pricey loudspeakers for me to get the combination of detail, air and smoothness I was looking for in the highs.
So my suggestion for debugging your problem is to borrow a recent released good modest CD player (e.g. Marantz or Cambridge Audio), a good integrated amplifier (ditto) and a decent loudspeaker (that is relatively easy to drive from modest integrated amplifier). Ideally you should hear these components perform in a different system to the level you expect. Then swap out these with your system one at a time until your find the problem.
I recommend an integrated amplifier because that limits the power supply connections. Also I recommend that CD player and amplifier are from the same company so that you minimise risk of incompatible power supply grounding.
If none of these solve the issue, then look at the mains quality and then the room acoustics.
BTW, I have previously successfully used Kimber 8TC - they are unlikely to be the cause of hard stringent sound. |
The speaker is what everything plays through. Chances are, if you get a speaker to your liking, the system will be easier to build.
If you like the Maggie sound, I think buying a pair of Maggies is a step in the right direction.
Also, be sure to get out and listen to equipment when you can. I try to make two or three outings a year to different cities to hear new offerings. You obviously have to decide. |
Arbuckle,
You aren't on board with what is considered axiomatic in hifi circles:
A GREAT system is a poor room is outgunned by an OK system in a GREAT room? |
I disagree with all the room comments. Yes room can make a difference, but you cant put lipstick on a pig. I would not give it that much weight for performance improvement based on what you said. The next place I would check is the amplifier. Not sure your budget, but you probably need something newer and a lot more resolving to get your "air" while at the same time being smoother on top that would not be so irritating. Try an older Musical Fidelity A3CR, Pass Aleph3 or Aleph 30 and dump those Kimbers for whatever you can afford at Morrow Audio. |
I used to have th ekimber 4tc/8tc biwire. When I switched to something newer the music played and the space opened up. I thought they were good cables but only realized how poor they were when trying something new. |
Room setup can make a huge difference. You could have two different people set up the same gear in the same room and end up with two totally different sounding systems.
I have found TrueRTA to be the easiest way to measure a room to see what is going on. After a year of using a meter and a CD of tones manually... TrueRTA is a godsend! |
Take a look at my system.looks good too,right.Well I'm going through the same thing..It 's the room,I guarantee it's the room.You have nice gear and It should sound better then a IPod.. |
All the advice about treating the room is the most important. you do need a test cd like the Stereophile disc and a radio shack meter. print tbe Rives graph and plot your graph. you do need to move your speakers. advice from my audio buddies really helped. i too have a square room and have 15 sound panels, 2 diffusers,and 4 bass traps. it has taken 2 years to get it dialed in. i replaced the Rotel cdp with a Sony 5400 and that helped. get help before you spend the money. |
Seems like Gcdm01's advice about getting an inexpensive meter and test tone cd would be helpful in at least some respects as Stuartbmw3's room dimensions are pretty much a worst case scenario. Not sure how far up into the midrange an 18x18x9 room's nodes will get pushed, but he has a less than ideal acoustic situation. (Rives Acoustics sells a test tone cd that has it's test tone levels adjusted for the Radio Shack meter's departures from linearity.) |
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Are the tweeters pointed right at your ears? If so, that might be an issue with your speakers. Try no toe in at all and pointed straight ahead. If possible, separate them at least 7-8 feet apart. |
IMO, you have alot of "issue" gear.I would start with your source ,the Rotel.I had one years ago and its really not worth messing with.Next the speakers...but for someone to tell you to "switch to vinyl" is just stupid... |
Thanks for the input so far....I really appreciate it. My room is 18 X 18 with 9 foot ceiling. Double french doors on on wall (usually open), triple windows with blinds on another wall, and a sofa, chair and desk in the room. THe floor is carpeted and there are several pictures on the walls.The speakers are somewhat off center, almost placed across a corner and less than two feet off the wall. They are about 5 feet apart. Listening position is either about 12 feet from the speakers, or off axis to the right at my desk. I know the speaker placement is probably not ideal, but I do have some constraints based on room layout and aesthetics.
I do have a little of a hard time believing that placement could be the primary culprit, but I have been wrong before. I do appreciate the advice of not blindly buy a respected/well reviewed, but somehwat random product and think it would solve my frustration. I apprciate the wisdom. At the end of the day the only piece that I would really hesitate in replacing is the SFL-1 Signature preamp. |
The room might contribute, but I don't think it is the main issue here. I would probably keep the preamp, sell the rest and build a new system.
I have the Grado that you use. You say that they actually sound more satisfying than your stereo, that means that the stereo is really bad.
Get yourself hi-fi. |
Chayro,
I read both of your posts and while you may have had a rough and confusing time in the past, things in the future will get a lot easier for you. The preamp is probably the most overlooked component in the chain. While there is no guarantee for success, now that you have a real understanding of how important it is component matching will be much easier. Simply put, you will be far less likely to play the tube, cables and accessors game. For example, I used to buy cables to offset things I did not like in my system; now I only need them to transfer the signal. I know it sounds very boring but I offset the boredom by listening to music. Unfortunately for the OP if this thread, I had the same exact preamp and it is an excellent piece. Unless it is broken in some way, I can't see that as the problem. |
I was in a similar situation and I simply started replacing elements of the system. This is simply reality, the way most of us do it. I doubt few were able to buy complete systems all at once. It took several years but eventually ended up with a really great system. I did belong to an audio club and got many ideas by listening to their systems. My guess is that you will end up wanting the sound of tube power amps, will change your source, and speakers. Some final tweaks to your cables and you will be all set. Don't rush and with time you will be able to afford more. |
Hi all ! Sounds to me as you probably should spend some effort treating the room . You can spend a whole lot of money and get no improvement if the room is bad . How do I know this ? Been there done that . |
Reading through your complaint, I can offer a different way to approach this problem. It's not a solution that most people will agree with, but I think its a legit way to start out in your case. You have identified something in your system that you don't like. Now the question is what to do. I say, locate the problem first, before you spend a lot of money on different components. After reading your post, it looks like you are not really sure what the problem is. That's OK; we all have situations like this at one time or another. But just guessing and buying different components is almost certain to fail. Think of it like this: If, for example, you decide to get a new CD player, think of what it is going to do. Buying a component like this is like buying an EQ with one setting. The worst part is, you do not know what the setting is until you actually plug it in and try it. I can tell you from personal experience that you will most likely fail. There is no better feeling than getting rid of your best component while leaving the problem on your shelf. Kiwi2 is suggesting a very good place to start. Get a cheap meter and a frequency sweep cd and see what is really going on. If you get some bad measurements you can take it a step further you can take it a step further and get a cheap EQ. (I got one for $40 on amazon. Behringer FQB800.) Use it to get a flat response in your listening chair. You might be surprised as to what you come up with. If you read some of the other posts from above you get: new CD player, fix the room, go analog ect. They are well meaning and any one of them might fix the problem; or none of them will. That is why I recommend a different approach. As far as your equipment goes, I have had your preamp and rotel Cd players (different models). I don't think either are the cause (the preamp is great). Also, I have had the Magnepans you mentioned. I wouldn't even think about those unless you can get a really good in home demo first. Anyway, I hope this info can help you out. |
Just to add an example of how hard to figure this stuff out without hands-on help from an expert, I was once dissatisifed with my system for what I was positive would be cured by a more powerful or "better" amplifier until it was proven to me that every sonic trait I was seeking was much better achieved by upgrading the preamp rather than the amplifier. It doesn't always work the way you think it does. Carry on. |
It would be easy to try swapping the speaker cables, I found the 8TC to be a bit thin and lacking bass in my system.
fwiw |
Stuartbmw3,
You can get superb sound from quality digital components without question. Digital or analogue systems run the spectrum from poor to sublime.
I`ve heard more than my share of bright,analytical and amusical analogue setups(believe me).
If possible audition different digital components(the front end) I`m confident you will find some that will 'substantially' improve your sound, just be patient and methodical.
Regards, |
You need to hook up with someone who knows a lot about audio to help walk you through this. A person who knows your sonic goals and can help you reach them. I know this may sound vague or simplistic, but until you find this person, you will wander through the forest of hifi perhaps never being satified. This person could be a dealer or a local audiophile with a system you like who has been through the maze and finally got to the other side. Check out local audio groups and try to get some good advice. Be warned - it's not easy and it's often more expensive than you initially thought. Best of luck. |
Switch to vinyl and your troubles will go away. Your description is exactly how I hear CDs. I would also be suspect of your kit speaker and would try to borrow something else just to see if that is an issue. |
Tell us a bit about your room and how you have gone about placing the speakers in it. Have you measured the speaker's response in the room in any way? |
Sounds like you may have poor room acoustics. Any system will sound bad in a room with poor acoustics. You could either put the system in a better room or try to work with the room you have by installing sound absorbing panels at the primary reflection points. If you still can't get no satisfaction then perhaps electronic equalization would be worth a try. Even Magnepans will sound bad in a bad room.
Best of luck to you.
Frank |
