I think good sound obviously combines both equipment selection and appropriate room set up. It cannot be all one thing or the other. Crappy low fi souces, amplification and speakers that sound bad will sound bad no matter what room they are in. That said, the best gear and speakers cannot sound good in an echo chamber of a room.
The op's set up limitations necesitate the best possible arrangement of speakers and room treatments that minmize whatever problems that need to be addressed. I reccomend setting up the speakers according to the best approximation to the Cardas triangle. Then use movable room treatments/sound traps to minimize reflections etc. Then start getting to the matter of buying equipment that satifies the your tastes. That part, like the room optimization, will require trial and error. It is the usual method we seem to use it is reiterative. Buy your equip,ment after hearing it at a store or show, or if need be by reputation and suggestion, see if it suites you. If is sucks sell it. If you have the money you can buy several pieces at once as a system. The same cabling and other tweaks and repeat until done. This may take several years and a lot of money. It took about 7 years in my case. (I have never really totaled the bill. I got side tracked with things like tube collecting.) |
From the pro side, anyone recording music knows that rooms are what its all about. The sound of so many great records was the sound of the room it was recorded in. You cannot divorce the sound of microphone from the room it's in anymore than you can divorce the reverse, a speaker, from the room it's in.
Live sound same thing....the great opera halls and PAC's sound good due to a lot of effort on the room.
No gear in the world can make a bad room sound good. No DSP, no room eq, nothing. You can improve it, from bad to better, but never from bad to great.
Brad |
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Ok Spaz I will bite. I have heard a great system in an untreated room. I have heard a great system in a room treated with very little. I have heard very expensive systems in treated rooms that I hated. I threw out 80% of my room treatments and my system was great. Go figure?
It depends on the room..........that you happen to be in and the furniture you have and the speaker placement you have and that is the truth of the matter. I least I think so. |
It seems that you chose all products of the lowest denominator. You need at least one item to push the envelope. If you like Classe, the "15" is a good one to have. Change both speaker cables to 8TC. Search for an SFL-2 and get a better source. |
I always go back to a room at Overture audio in Delaware.No matter what system I hear in this room ,it's great. |
Ok Spaz I will bite. I have heard a great system in an untreated room. I have heard a great system in a room treated with very little. I have heard very expensive systems in treated rooms that I hated. I threw out 80% of my room treatments and my system was great. Go figure?
It depends on the room..........that you happen to be in and the furniture you have and the speaker placement you have and that is the truth of the matter. I least I think so. |
That's a beautiful room and system Spaz. I have a hard time beliving it "stinks".....
Shakey |
In most real world conditions obtaining a world class room is out".Every great sounding system I heard over the past 25 years had this going for them "a decent room"I know in my room over the last 8 years I've tried 4 different amps,5 different speakers,5 preamps,6 cd players,all kinds of wire,all with similar outcomes.yea some sound much better then the other and so on,but it's still ain't right.One of the biggest changes is when I put in treatments.3 days ago I did an experiment .I took out almost all my treatments and tried to listen.My session lasted about 1 hour before I couldn't take it.So I put the treatments back in and it sounded much better.Is it still right, NO..My room stinks..But with treatments and a good room everything else is a lot easier.If anyone disagrees with this you haven't heard a OK system in a great room.. |
Although I have a transport, digital transmission interface, and DAC; I hardly ever use them, I'm strictly computer. Let us know if a computer based system will suit you. |
Another suggestion. Move your listening seat forward in increments of 3-4 inches until the sound locks in. I think you are sitting too far away. Sit as close as you can until you lose the coherence of the drivers, then back up just a little. The closer you can sit, the more you remove the room from the equation. Ideally, I think you should be about 1 ft. closer to the speakers.
Shakey |
Good for you! No specific recommendations, however FWIW, I'll pass on a couple of things that helped me find the 'music' in digital, and to find a benchmark set of IC's and speaker cable, i.e. cost vs performances.
A tubed CDP! What a difference this can make! And you can roll tubes 'til you get the tone your want. For the price the Raysonic 128 is great! Great dynamics and warm tone but still retaining clear/clean highs.
I had settled on some Cardas IC's and speaker wire after having Nordost, Kimber, etc. Well out of curiosity, based on recommendations of others on this forum, I needed some long runs so I bought some Canare Quad 4S11 speaker and some Blue Jean IC. Very inexpensive stuff and I had no great expectations. I sub'd out the Cardas stuff. Considering the price I was amazed, but I get a much more neutral and effortless sound with out the excessive brightness or tone control introduced by the more expensive stuff. Who knew........Now I use the Cardas when I want tone adjustments. :-)
If you feel you must replace your speakers, of which I have no knowledge, be sure to consider that the sound of any speaker is the result of its electronic interface with your amp. Some speakers need good SS amps to drive them properly, others love tubes. And if your lucky, speakers with a flat impedance curve of (or close to) 8 ohms has the potential to sound good with either.
Lastly, considering the nulls/nodes you experience (I assume from the room dimensions that they exist, you might like to pick up a SPL meter (Radio Shack) and a test CD with pre-recorded test tones from 20 hz to 20k hz. It will help you find the optimum positions for your listening chair and speakers, at least to the extent that you can avoid the most severe nulls/nodes.
Keep it up................ |
I thought I would give you some updates in terms of what I have been trying. Based on your input I moved around the room. The speakers are now centered on a wall, about 3 feet off the back wall and about 9 feet apart. The listening position is stil about 12 feet from the speakers. I had to remove the Kimber speaker wire from the mix. I used a single run of Tara Labs Prism Klara speaker wire (really inexpensive). I also changed the tube in the SFL-1 Sig to a Dutch Amperex SQ 12AT7. It has always been my favorite tube in this preamp...gold pins and pinched waist.
Finally I messed with the sub settings(cross over, volume and polarity) and also unplugged the ports on the speakers. The designer had advised me to plug the ports if mating with a sub.
The sound has imroved and opened up significantly. Not there yet, but a real step in the right direction. I still believe I have two challenges. First the digital front end is quite old and probably outdated, and then secondly the speakers are not a great fit. Prior to these speakers I had a pair of Monitor Audio MA-700 monitors. They were great speakers and I only replaced them because one of the woofers went bad. I still miss those speakers.
Anyway, thanks for all the input and help....very much appreciated. |
Take all the equipment out of your listening room and bring it all to another room that has proper dimensions and allows for symmetrical placement. Otherwise you are just wasting your time and money. Don't spend a dime until you do this. |
Having had the MSB Link III, Kimber 8TC, and Kimber Silver Streak, these components can definitely sound strident and hard. I highly recommend a tube DAC -- MHDT Paradisea is a GREAT choice for offering warm, natural, relaxed sound at < $400 used. MHDT Havana is even better, about $700 used.
If you want to use up more of that $2k budget the Calyx 24/192 DAC is amazing value at $1500 new. Trust me, going from an MSB Link to one of these DACs will make a huge difference.
PNF or MAC are good budget choices for cables that exhibit these qualities as well. Audience AU24 (e) even better at a higher price point. Cardas Cross I didn't care for. JPS may be a little vivid for your system as well, depending on how polite you like your sound.
Your amplification should not be factors in that type of fatiguing sound. Speakers I am not familiar with. |
01-24-12: Turboglo
I'm not sure I understand the contentious debate between those focussing on placement/treatment issues and those focussing on equipment issues. It seems pretty obvious that neither good equipment set-up poorly, nor bad equipment set-up optimally, is going to shine. This sounds strangely like our government! Throw in some tube vs. ss and some cable arguments, and we might have enough to run some Audiogon elections :^) |
As Mike60 tried to say what I did, you people need to re-read the OPs equipment. I as well as others have attested to owning some items in his list and all of us have identified problems with somewhere on that list. Those screaming to treat the room are doing so apparently without understanding the gear. Much of that gear is very old and when it was new, at least I never got the best sound from it, despite my room. I had always been able to hear discernable changes, all for the better, when upgrading and leaving the room completely ALONE.
I again will recommend an amp and cable change as I mentioned above. The Forte from Mike60 is a Nelson Pass design and in the same veign as my recommendation for an older Aleph3 or 30.
Again, as others have said, rooms can make a difference but in my experience have always served as tweaks to refine the sound, not totally change the sound. I too have bass busters and corner busters now sitting in my closet as I found no change in the sound. I actually wonder if the OP is getting any benefit from these posts or if this is more a room vs. gear debate?
If anyone wants to buy my bass busters or corner busters send me a note. There appears to be enough room fanatics on this thread someone must need them. |
Room placement costs nothing and could be all that the problem is. Buying new gear may or may not solve the problem and would be $$$ down the drain if that is the case.
I know I can make my system sound very detailed and bright but rather clinical and cold... or I can make it sound warm and organic and natural, depending where in the room I place the speakers and listening position. It's such a difference that you wouldn't believe they were the same speakers.
Once you learn to measure the room's response, these differences begin to make sense and you can see what is going on and why.
The best gear in the world would still sound bad if poorly integrated into a room. Learning to get the best sound possible out of the gear you already have will reveal if you do indeed still need new gear... and when you do get new gear... that you will get the best out of it. |
I'm not sure I understand the contentious debate between those focussing on placement/treatment issues and those focussing on equipment issues. It seems pretty obvious that neither good equipment set-up poorly, nor bad equipment set-up optimally, is going to shine. |
Throw the bums out and spend more dough before taking the room out of the equation by a nearfield set-up to see? This cost nothing and should be very telling if it is the room or system synergy and is the FIRST thing that should be done, come on guys why spend money on a hit or miss crapshoot, it doesn't make sense at this point. |
That Rotel is the first thing that needs replacing. Mine is gathering dust. |
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To add to my post, i disagree with much of the advice above and suspect it is one or more of your components and have had a bad experience with the same model Rotel player myself which i used in different systems and even moving to a new house and room. Of course it could be a different cause in your case but i suggest you borrow a Marantz 6004 which i have heard and like, or one of the new Cambridge or NADs (many choices) and bypass the DAC before trying the other suggestions. |
I once had the Rotel 965 and i remember it well for having a hard and fatigueing sound exactly as you describe. You are using a DAC so I am wondering if the transport itself can cause this. I suggest you borrow a different player to start with which will narrow down the cause. |
Replace the Classe 10. I've had a few Classe' amps over the years and found them both muddy in the lower mids and glarey in the upper mids.
Suggest a Forte or similar. |
Hi all ! It is very easy to take some large pillows or heavy blankets and put them at the first reflection points, etc...just to see if it helps . Either that or get on the equipment merry-go-round and start spending a bunch of money . When re-reading your OP I see you comment on your system being fatiguing and perhaps strident . Maybe something as simple as those felt rings which go around the tweeters would be another option ? |
Rrog, You may be right, but nothing ventured nothing gained. Someone had to tell him the unvarnished truth. What he does with the information is his business. Telling him to put thin band-aids on a serious wound accomplishes nothing other than getting one's name in print. If he was foolish enough to take much of this advise he would be all the poorer and not more satisfied. Placebo effect not withstanding. IMHO!
I know nothing about the state of his knowledge despite his allusions about what he knows, and assumed nothing about the state of his knowledge, or the level of his interest in actually doing the work necessary to achieve some quality sound and I'll be dammed if I'm going to tell him to buy new equipment, or commercial acoustic materiel, or any tweaks, until I can see a set up where they might actually, audibly, improve something. The only thing I did assume about the OP was that he cared enough about his audio system enough to seek help. Why not try? Didn't cost me anything. |
My thoughts are the room, and the quality of your power. The room has two identical dimensions, and one that is a multiple. This is very bad news for getting a smooth frequency response. As far as power goes, I'm afraid the only real way to know would be to get a very good power conditioner. Unfortunately, the good ones are expensive. You might want to try to audition (borrow, buy with return privilege, etc) a conditioner to see if this impacts your problem significantly.
Good luck ! |
Hi Ron (Rrog),
I agree, and I did notice the OP's statement that you quoted. However, it seems to me, and per Newbee's suggestion, that step 1 is to identify as precisely as possible the predominant contributor(s) to the problem. And moving the speakers way out into the room and listening from a closer distance, as an experiment, could very likely facilitate that process.
It seems very conceivable to me that the end result of those experiments could be a conclusion that the particular speakers are simply not suitable for the listening arrangement that has to be used. If so, replacing the speakers might end up being a course of action that would allow the OP to avoid a lot of unnecessary time and expense pursuing the myriad other suggestions that have been offered.
Best regards,
-- Al |
Stuartbmw3'..All the info on the cardas site is great and very useful,but try there method first.I tried it several days ago with my speakers and it didn't work.The calculations for there speaker placement put my speakers 4 ' from the side wall with only 6' between them.I gave it a try and it sounded horrible with my setup.Theres a lot of audiophiles that use this method with great success though.I think it's essential to creat a uniform triangle for you final setup to proper imaging.. |
Spaz, Newbee, Almarg, We all know about the room and how important it is. We also know about speaker placement. Read the OP's second post. "I know the speaker placement is probably not ideal, but I do have some constraints based on room layout and aesthetics." Something tells me it's not going to happen. |
I am a novice audiophile, but I would try one thing, it is simple and easy. If you are running all this on standard outlets as is normally wired into a house when built, most electricians will run 8 to 12 outlets on one 15amp breaker and if you are plugging all this into a few of these outlets but also have lamps and other "items" in the house plugged into this circuit also, you could be on the edge of your amp load and so I would run a dedicated 15 or 20 amp service line on a new breaker so that you are running all your equipment on its own circuit so all the juice is dedicated to just your system. Use hospital grade receptacles and you can try isolated ground receptacles as well. Seems to me you have nice enough equipment, could be a simple matter of current starvation? Easy enough to test.
carry on. |
Stuartbmw3, I won't cheat you out of the pleasure of finding the Cardas methodology on line, but I would like to say that it is more applicable in concept than any particular specificity. I haven't read it in years but as I recall for box speakers in rectangular rooms it places the speakers about 1/3d of the length of the room away from the wall behind them, 1/3d of the width of the sidewalls away from the side walls. It places the listening chair at the apex of an equilateral triangle.
When I first used it I ended up using 1/5th in place of 1/3d and it worked well. Then I spent a few years fine tuning it! :-)
Another tip. Try toeing in your speakers once you have reset them until the axis of the speakers crosses well in front of your listening chair. Assuming your speakers are hot on axis this not only reduces high end energy, it minimizes 1st reflections off the closest wall and directs them off the opposite wall thus creating a long delay before they finally reach your ears. It has a similar effect with the signal bouncing off the ceiling. You can much more longer delayed signal related to the shorter delayed signal. For different reasons this can also increase the width of the sweet spot for listening.
Just something to play with. Have fun. |
01-23-12: Newbee
IMHO the OP need to think out side the box by discarding for the moment what won't practically or esthetically work for him ... set his system up in a very near-field set up well away from the boundries to see what his system really sounds like without room boundary reinforcement and reflections. IMO Newbee's suggestion is excellent and is definitely the place to start. You need to get a handle on what your system really sounds like, while minimizing the presence of reverberant energy that undoubtedly comprises a great deal of what you are hearing, particularly given the listening distance and room dimensions you have described. I would suggest that when you do this you try a variety of toe-in angles, including no toe-in. I see that your speakers have been designed to provide essentially ruler-flat frequency response from 45 Hz to 22 kHz, as shown in the graph about 1/3 of the way from the top of this page. That kind of response can be very unforgiving of non-optimal placement, listening position, and room acoustics, and IME can sound hard and excessively bright if not set up optimally. Regards, -- Al |
Guys(figuratively), I really appreciate all the lively discussion. I will have the house to myself for the majority of the week, so I will experiment with speaker placement and listening position. There is a wealth of information from you and you are really making me think hard on solving this. I will keep you posted. Any one care to give me a little info on the "Cardas method". |
I am one of those that believe a room, that is a particular space, regardless of set-up and components can contribute in no small way to poor sound or conversely, great sound. I have personally experienced it and in my particular case tried every possible set-up making wholesale changes to the system including 3 speakers. The final solution? I ended up abandoning the room after my wife and I had a serious talk about rearranging our living space. I do agree about treatments though, they can be taken too far and there are other means to achieve good results including plants, window treatment and furniture placement. First and foremost as Newbee notes is speaker placement relative to listening position and wall boundaries and go from there. Last thing is recommending component changes until it is determined if there is a fundamental problem with the room regardless of set-up. Some rooms just don't work. |
>Given your handle is "Shakeydeal" I think we can all read into your intents. Putting together a perfect room with $300 in gear should do it right? Let's dump all of our money into room tweaks and forget about what we have hooked up, hell the room is 80% of the sound right? What a moron.<
I wondered when the name calling would start, what took you so long?
To even speculate about a 300.00 system on this site is laughable. But I won't stop you from showing your ignorance once again.
Nobody in this thread is advocating a cheap system in a 10K treated room. Use that lump on your shoulders for something other than a hat rack......
Shakey |
Spaz you are spot on. And before I get mega flamed again, it's not ONLY the room treatment that I am talking about. You have to start with a decent room. Not a closet, and not an open floor plan with 16 ft. vaulted ceilings. You only need to browse through the virtual systems on this site to view some of the nightmarish listening rooms and speaker placement. Some are better suited for headphone listening,
Shakey |
I'm convinced the room is everything.Get this right and your halfway there..I think alot of audiophiles leave this out of the equation .Or just don't want to admit it. |
Newbee, The OP states the speakers are almost placed across a corner. I take that to mean diagonal placement. If that is the case the majority of your post regarding speaker placement does not apply. The same is true of the Cardas program which does not work for the majority of people.
The OP knows the speaker placement is not ideal, but has constraints based on room layout and aesthetics. |
I think there is a fatal flaw in trying to get good sound from this system, apart from the sonic's of the equipment which I agree may not approach optimum.
The OP sez that the speakers are 5ft apart and he listens to them from 12 feet back. The speakers are only 2ft off the back wall and are not symmetrical to any of the walls in his 18x18x9ft room, not good room dimensions as we all know, and the excessive nulls and nodes which will defy correction, will all be too apparent. The room will have more reflections than just the important 1st reflections to deal with. But with a lot of work via experimentation with set up he should be able to get something reasonable.
The OP complains of harshness which could be from excessive 1st and 2nd reflections off the walls, as well as reflections off the ceiling. He wants more 'air' but in my humble opinion he hasn't even approached the height/width sound stage available let alone the sense of depth and 'air'. In fact even if he is listening in a triangulated seat/speaker placement, he still isn't getting much more than expanded mono and the attendant congestion caused by having speakers too close together.
IMHO the OP need to think out side the box by discarding for the moment what won't practically or esthetically work for him and play with setting the speakers up in a classic manner (starting with the Cardas methodology) and also set his system up in a very near-field set up well away from the boundries to see what his system really sounds like without room boundary reinforcement and reflections. He should also be mindful of the benefits of proper toe in used to minimize 1st reflections as well as optimize speaker focus without getting a hot treble (which depends on the speakers driver's designs on and off axis.
He should also realize that, as he has already been told, there is no cure for his problem without a lot of experimentation. You can't buy what he needs other than some good books on all things audio, especially rooms, set up, and managing reflections appropriately.
FWIW. |
Oh, and be sure to install the Zobel networks if you try the Goertz cables. |
Over the years, I have posted several questions about possible things I might be able to do to improve my sound quality. Some questions were about speakers, some about amps, and so on. On almost every thread, advice was strongly given to treat the room. Well, the other day, I put about a 4' by 4' section of insulation on the right wall in my bedroom system, at the first reflection point. This fairly well sucked the life out of the sound. This is not to advocate against room treatments, and I think a smaller panel might be the ticket. But, apparently, it is very easy to do too much treatment.
Now, I would also recommend trying different speaker cables. The biggest recent improvement I have made in the aforementioned bedroom system(Monitor Audio Silver 9i speakers) was going to a set of Goertz MI-2 speaker cables(I had tried them years before in a different system and were in storage). Before that, I had been using some Morrow SP2 cables which I thought were pretty good on the highs, but I wasn't getting much bass out of the speakers. With the MI-2, however, I now have much more and better bass, great attack on transients, and really clear dialog on movies and vocals. YRMV, of course. |
Original Poster,
I wasn't planning on another post because I still stand by what I originally said in my first post. After reading through some of the above recommendations, well meaning as they may be, I want to make just a couple of quick points that may help you out. Of all the posts on this thread, not one person, myself included, knows what is wrong with your system. That should be apparent. From what I can see, the only fix that wasn't mentioned yet, is to just bulldoze your house down and start over using audiophile building materials and room dimensions. Don't worry though; if you decide to go this route, I'm sure that we can all give you some construction advice. Aside from that, you should also realize that this is a problem that you are going to have to fix yourself. I don't deny that it may take some time and patience but if you use you head and make some careful decisions, you will get it right. (You'll also gain a lot of knowledge and experience that you can share with others just like we are all doing on this post. Another opinion is always needed.) |
The last few posts reminded me of something I read on the Polk forum the other day. Check this out............ I plan to soundproof and treat for acoustics before I bring anything in. The room shares a wall with the bedroom so I need to get this right or I'll be shopping for headphones in no time! I need to do it on the cheap, though. I'm leaning towards a case of 12 heavy moving blankets so I can cover the ceiling as well.
-Is this overkill?
-Is it possible to overdampen a room this small given the distance from ear-to-driver (3' for each)?
I was thinking I would also put cheap pillows in the tricorners and hope I don't need further bass reducers in the corners.
-Would those round pool toy foam noodles work for this? |
Rrog is spot on. Come on folks. I tore down all those ugly room treatments that I messed with for 2 years only to find my music came back to life again. Place your speakers properly and use drapes, carpet, common sense, a little reading on proper speaker set-up and furniture and be done with it.
I think a couple of well placed panels are fine, but let's not go overboard with this room stuff. Goodness I have spent a good amount of money and time on treatments only to find my 3 panel treated room sounds best. |
You guys are crackin' me up. There are times when room treatment is obviously needed like when the listening position is backed up to a wall. Treating the wall behind you is a must to eliminate reflections off that wall. However, lately it seems whenever someone is not satisfied with the sound of their system room treatment becomes the hot topic. Honestly, looking at the OP's system I would rather have a CJ preamp than Sonic Frontiers with Classe any day and maybe that would be a good place to start. |
Shakyman:
Surely you must be referring to your own post when you say stupid blanket statement. Here it is one more time:
"Your statement is ridiculous considering the room contributes maybe 75-80% of the end result."
Given your handle is "Shakeydeal" I think we can all read into your intents. Putting together a perfect room with $300 in gear should do it right? Let's dump all of our money into room tweaks and forget about what we have hooked up, hell the room is 80% of the sound right? What a moron. |
"People pushing room correction devices and the like is snake oil in my opinion."
Another stupid blanket statement. I do not sell or manufacture anything audio related or otherwise. I am NO fan of digital room correction, but I still stand by my statement that the room is by far the most important component. Ever go to an audio show and hear six figure systems sound like crap? Throwing money at the problem, especially when it's the wrong problem, isn't always the answer.
Get the room and placement right, then work on what might be wrong with everything else.
Shakey |
Shakeydeal......really? Come on, can we keep sales pitches out of the forums and provide some honest advice. |
