for streaming why not computer/galvanic isolation/DAC clock?

streamers cheaper than a Mac sound better to me. Minis were tried 10 years ago and rejected for dedicated streamers. And some single ended connections sound better to me than galv isolated ones.

Do what you’re gonna do. Listen to no one. Discover truth for yourself.

Given your system, I would recommend you borrow a purpose built streamer. It may not answer why a streamer sounds better, but it will resolve any doubts that it does and by a good margin.

There are two issues you should think about when using a PC/laptop as a source.  Galvanic isolation for the signal which I assume is USB, and the noise in the power supply.

You can solve the power supply noise issue by putting the PC on a different AC circuit, but then that causes digital ground loops and sometimes even audible hum via ground loops.  If it's digital only it can cause excess jitter

Some DACs have excellent galvanic isolation on the USB port, some do not.  Either way the solutions are cheap.

The big issue IMHO tends to be the power supply noise, which is of course is also the ground loop issue.

So, yes, get an inexpensive USB isolator but also be aware of where you plug the PC power into.  If at all possible put it on a different circuit, and under no circumstances should you put it on the "clean" side of your power conditioners.

Forgot to mention that I have the power amp on one dedicated circuit, the DAC and pre on another. Computer is plugged into a regular wall outlet. Using a Panamax power conditioner on the outlet with the DAC and Pre. No ground loops that I can hear. 

Amazingly when I plug anything into the “high current” outlet on the Panamax I get all sorts of noise coming out of the components, revealed by the sniffer. Even if I put in a simple floor lamp with no bulb in the socket, the noise appears, with lamp turned off. Completely silent when I use only the low current outlets. The components that become noisy are plugged into those low current outlets. 

Antenna?

DeKay

If antenna why only on the high current input? I think your explanation makes sense, but what do I know. . The main point of the post it’s to understand why a galvanicallu isolated computer into an independent clock can be improved upon (in terms of SQ). I guess I am clouding it with other questions. 
 

Yeah, this whole high-end streamer thing is a total sham to separate you from your money.  There’s clearly nothing to it.  Just keep rocking that Mac Mini cause it ain’t gonna get better than that.  For you.  Sad.

PS - USB cables can have a ground loop that isn’t audible as hum. Sometimes it’s just significantly higher jitter. In my case though I’ve definitely had the audible kind when using a very long USB cable from a remote PC.

Normally I use a Pi as my streamer with an iFi power adapter to eliminate noise being fed into my AC.

If you are using a laptop, you can test this somewhat by unplugging the power adapter from the wall while listening.  No difference means you don't have a problem.

Love those colorful comments!

I am not trying to debate whether purpose built streamers are better-  there are plenty of other threads on that. I am asking WHY they are better. Certainly the software and handling of music is important, but in terms of SQ what are they doing besides noise reduction and  reclocking? Noise is reduced by their internal layout, type of power supply etc, but can't the noise be handled by a bridge or some other kind of galvanic isolation?

Good advice to just borrow one and try it.

Appreciate the useful tips.

It has been awhile since I had a Mac mini but couldn't the OP set up the Mac mini at a location away from his audio system room, connect it to his network, use it as a server for music file storage (on a SSD), and then use a separate streamer located in his audio system room and connected to his DAC?  If using Roon, I believe the mini can operate Roon Core and the streamer as a Roon Ready endpoint.  There are good sounding streamer options that include on-board femto clocks and LPSs for as little as $1-2K.  If desired, he could isolate the streamer by fiber or by using another type of Ethernet isolator such as those offered by Network Acoustics. 

OP:

If we are asking about whether to use a separate streamer or not, I think the answer is in which DAC do you want, and how badly do you want it?

That is, the separates vs. integrated issue is really as much about being able to pick and chose each component separately. In my case I really liked the Mytek Brooklyn (original) and got a separate streamer which handled Roon. My next move, if I ever stop talking about it, is really going to be based not on technical theories but on the sound of the DAC. If I can find an affordable all-in-one streamer DAC then that will probably be the way I go. If I fall in love with a DAC that does nto have Roon built in then I’ll go that route instead.

Honestly though I may give it all up and just go with a single HT processor with built in streaming and leave this all behind, mostly based on how many cables and wires and devices I have to have working in order to listen to music or movies.

It will however be a very very long time before anyone convinces me I need a kilobuck streamer alone to upgrade my sound experience. 

Streamers are just expensive computers. Mini Mac does a great job. I use Audirvana (highly recommended) to bypass the computers internal sound card using Exclusive mode. Works great!

I have a late model M1 Macmini streaming into an RME ADI2 and it sounds pretty darn good. As @ghdprentice suggests the only way to know if it can get better is to sub in a high level streamer, but I think you could be at a level where it will be hard to discern any difference.  The M1 mini is much more efficient and quiet than earlier ones. You've got some very nice equipment, try to let go of your FOMO and enjoy the music.

PS- you might have more to gain by playing around with room acoustics or even going for an entirely different type of speaker, just for the variety it offers. Have fun!

FOMO is a real threat. I am getting into DIY. The next goal is to find a good high efficiency speaker and build SET amplifiers - lot to learn. This post is more about trying to understand what is happening, and how these things are engineered. I think working with tube amps that sound good by virtue of their simplicity would be a good place to go. I agree that being happy now with the big thing in the living room is great advice. Even my wife likes it now - just asked for written instructions on turning on and off. Now that is rare and lucky.

They are better because they a engineered for audio, not computing.

So simple it evades you? Apple has shown to be cavalier about SQ.

If it’s good enough enjoy.

I listened to computer/DAC sound for many years before moving on. If something is better, only an engineer/designer should care why. To tell the truth I don’t give a rat’s ass.

When I use WiFi rather than an ethernet connection there are no dropouts;  I assume that is better than bringing in noise from ethernte.

No.  Just, no.  You are hugely mistaken.

a mac mini is not cheap, but costs far less than high end streamers. Do people pay for the file management etc, or is the SQ better with a dedicated streamer?

A Mac Mini is cheap, and yeah, there’s a reason there are expensive streamers out there.  Just try one and you’ll see/hear why a streamer matters.

Thanks. All my stuff downstream of DAC bought used and broken over last few years.  Good way to afford stuff and find synergy. Found that for the set up I described galvanic isolation in usb between computer and dac mattered. Couldn’t discern any difference between wireless and ethernet connection.  Putting in dedicated line helped a lot, especially during the day. 

I have been trying to figure out how to best stream to my set up and looked at many alternatives, all the conflicting posts etc etc. I just wonder why one cannot use a computer with a device for good galvanic isolation, and rely on the clock within the DAC to eliminate issues of jitter.

You can. I do, I use an Intel NUC, home made Linear power supply, isolation on the digital link, Since its USB the DAC will read to buffer and re-clock anything - need it or not (well, in that case it needs it). The jitter will be exactly as good as the DAC - almost guaranteed better than any streamer, once recovered from a signal (which is imprecise and is a known challenge in super high frequency digital signals (like 100s of times faster that these silly ~ 1.5 Mbps links)

IO have an extraordinarily resolving system in the bog picture and get fantastic sound - subject ot the recording of course.

I run Roon on an older Windows 10 laptop. The sound is indistinguishable from that produced by a streamer of any make. I do use a power conditioner for the laptop, the DAC and the pre-amp. An Ethernet connection is preferable, but I use WiFi with no apparent loss of sound quality (although I do lose the internet signal occasionally).

@arhgef FOMO is a real threat. I am getting into DIY. The next goal is to find a good high efficiency speaker and build SET amplifiers - lot to learn. This post is more about trying to understand what is happening, and how these things are engineered. I think working with tube amps that sound good by virtue of their simplicity would be a good place to go.

You seem to be on a similar path as me, DIY is great. Fun ,satisfying, educational and economical. May I recommend considering a foray into a open baffle speaker using a Lii Audio full range driver such as the F6, if you dont want to risk much or the F15 if your wallet is a bit fatter. No Crossover, direct wire to amp. You can supplement bass to taste with subwoofers. Unique open airy sound with great imaging, but you do lose something on the top and bottom end.

In the amp area Decware sells the printed circuit board for their 2 watt Zen amp for $45 with instructions and parts list but you have to order the parts and transformers on your own. All in $6-700 roughly. I built it and it is a lot of fun with true SET sound. If you never built a kit before and would like all the parts delivered with a nice case look at Nelson Pass's Amp Camp kit. 8 watts per channel and a sound very like a tube amp, but solid state.  That is what I started with and glad I did. Hope this might be of help to you or someone else pursuing this sort of path.

I use a computer and leave it under a bed in my guest bedroom. It is a tiny computer without a mouse | keyboard | monitor. It is directly connected to my network via Ethernet. I run ROON Core on this $500 computer. I use PowerLine Adapters to get music to my Livingroom and Ethernet for the office. I use RDP to connect into the computer. Though I rarely do that. I automatically put the computer to sleep at 2:30AM and it wakes up with ROON at 7AM.

All of this sounds like a catastrophically bad setup from many posts on A’gon. I argue that because I use fibre optic cable (which is glass) just before my DAC’s, it does not matter what is before the fibre. Who cares about electrical noise when glass cannot carry that noise.

The cleanest way to do this would be with a DAC that can directly eat the bits from the server via fibre. A Lumin X1 (about $6k used) can do this with a direct fibre connection from a cheap network switch with fibre. I had this at one time and the stream was amazing.

A slightly less optimal stream, but what I use now is the Sonore OpticalRendu that takes Fibre and converts to USB, which then goes into the DAC. That final conversion to USB is why it is not as good as the X1 but the oR also sounds great.

I control all of this with my computers, cellphones, and tablets. Each of my DACs are connected with ROON READY endpoints to make this work seamlessly. The X1 is a ROON READY endpoint as are the OpticalRendu’s.

I use the following PowerLine for my Livingroom. I recently tried 4 NetGear adapters and they were not good. I should have stuck with TP-Link.

Here is another part of what is needed for my setup.

Just for playing around, I had a Mac Mini M1 running Audirvana. I used an Aurender UT100 usb to fiber convertor plugged directly into the back of the Mini and it fed a Qutest via a quality glass fiber cable. It actually sounded quite amazing. 

The Mini is extremely energy efficient, never drawing more that 8 watts even when doing silly high oversampling, most often stayed at 6 watts. Zero heat or noise. Wifi to business class Cisco access points is 100% reliable.

What I didn't like was the lack of easy control of it. At least at the time, Audirvana didn't have a good phone/tablet app to control this.

That said, I'm not giving up my Aurender N100H as my main streamer. But there certainly can be success using computers in an audio chain.  

Lots of great options and alternatives here.

eric_squires - Makes sense that if you are combining everything into one box, especially if that includes the DAC, that  engineering and cost would make a big difference. Splitting everything apart into separates is interesting and flexible- especially being able to switch DACs. I bet separating things can also provide more SQ per dollar.

Bruce 19 - Agree on all you said re DIY! With the  high efficiency speakers you can play with designs that amateurs can understand and modify. Have found the SET sound to be really amazing, especially for my vinyl set up. SS is another world, but Nelson Pass has lots of valuable instructional things and designs on his web site. I think even some two way bookshelf speakers like used Epos could work at lower volume? They have no crossover.  Thanks a lot for those tips - this discussion is probably for a different thread. Enjoy!

I use a fanless mini PC w LPS controlled by ipad remote software into an Iris DDC for isolation and clocking to Pontus II DAC streaming Qobuz.  Sounds better to me than any streamer I’ve tried with comparable price point. PC was $300 new.  All in, approximately $2,800. 

In my starting post I said that I used Innuos for galvanic isolation. Sorry meant to say Intona. 

@arhgef - Thanks for the clarification.  I couldn't figure out which Innuos product you were using.  I believe the JCAT USB isolators are basically Intona products.  I have almost pulled the plug on an Intona isolator several times and have been curious about their performance and whether there would be any artifacts.  I have not heard noticable improvements from the several similar type products I have used (Uptone, W4S, and ifi).   I used the GigaFOILv4-INLINE Ethernet Filter for awhile but thought I was getting a bit of shrillness from it so currently using fiber for that. 

I have only tried the Intona and never heard it have a negative effect on the sound, just in some cases have no effect. I used a Qutest for a while and thought it improved the sound clearly, but didn’t do any blind a/b testing. I left it in place when I switched to the RME. Wish I could be more helpful. The Qutest is supposed to have its own galvanic isolation for usb, so I was surprised, but after a few trials decided the Intona really did help. I don’t remember this clearly,  but I believe I had to use an external power supply for the Intona with Qtest. The Intona can clean up the usb power with no external power source, and it does that for the RME, but I have read that it loses a little power in the process, maybe enough to stop the Qutest. I am not a huge fan of the measurements above all approach, but Amir likes the Intona. 

The Intona has an input where you can add power if is needed.