Very true. Also, stereo subs matter, 2 are much better than 1 positioned L and R.
Finally Learned: Subs serve much larger role than adding more low bass
I sold my older powered sub a while back. reasons-
1. It did not integrate well.
2. I was pretty satisfied with my 2 speakers bass output.
3. Was big, heavy and ugly.
After traveling around the counrty and listening to home systems put together by people who know their way around the industry I realized they all have something I did not. A well integrated bass array.
So what does a bass array add to a 2.0 system?
This is where words fail but I will try:
-Increased Involvement in the listening experience
-More enjoayble sound stage
So if you are like I was, a sub denier, I suggest you try one small
sub, as I did, and see what you experience. My $500 REL T5x experience
did it for me. Now I will buy a second one.
74 responses Add your response
My main speakers don't benefit as much from subs as they are good to 20 Hz on their own. Obviously the limitation there is that you are locked into the manufacturers set up as the low bass isn't independently adjustable as it is with separate subs. I also operate an audio system that incorporates my main speakers plus a pair of powered subs that are 3 dB down at 16 Hz and so of course had the opportunity to try my stereo set up along with the subs. Other than slightly boosting really low bass - which matters if you are into organ music - there wasn't much advantage to adding the subs over without subs. Another system I have is one I'd really like to integrate a sub into - ML CLS, but electrostatics are a bitch to blend with subs especially with a smaller room. Can't recall if anyone combined Quad ESLs really successfully with subs.... |
At Deer Creek Audio, we believe adding a subwoofer to your system is one of the most powerful ways to increase clarity, imaging, dynamics and all the attributes audiophiles associate with a high fidelity full range system. A primary reason is that excessive energy and driver excursion is eliminated in the range speakers, resulting in better utilization of amplifier power and reduced Doppler distortion. Proper subwoofer integration and calibration are the keys to success. Following are some highlights. Crossover Setting The crossover between the main speakers and subwoofer(s) is a skill that goes beyond applying the symmetrical textbook high and low pass filter. We have found the asymmetrical filter slopes and shapes can produce significantly enhanced results. See image below for an example of a crossover we use with JBL 4349s and a high power 12-inch subwoofer.
Delay Setting Next, delay needs to be adjusted so that the gross arrival time between the subs and the mains is aligned to achieve the tightest non-interfering response. Time Domain Correction The Dirac room correction process attempts to improve the impulse response of the combined main speaker and subwoofer system. When properly performed, a Dirac project results in the seamless integration between the subwoofer and the main speakers, allowing the system to achieve the bottom octave of music without the undesirable effects of an untuned subwoofer installation. Here's a graphic example of impulse response optimization.
It's an amazing high fidelity musical experience when you seamlessly add the last octave. Feel free to contact us at Deer Creek Audio if you'd like to discuss these concepts further.
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Hi Folks, Not much to add that hasn't been stated in adding refined, deep bass. I lived with good monitors in many rooms, discovering the added benefits of quick, sealed subs later in the journey. My solution in a small dedicated studio is a pair of monitors atop a pair of subs, digging down into the 20's. I have Auralex isolation platforms to float the subs and IsoAcoustics monitor stands separating the monitors and subs. I split the incoming signal with a Focusrite Pro DAC which removes the heavy lifting of bass from my main tube amp to the monitors, letting the active sealed subs do their thing from 80Hz down. This results in a large, deep, full stage, the disappearing act of great monitors and the heft of full range without limitation to genre nor volume levels. I have nearby friends with astounding, full systems in large rooms. I'm never sad to come home. More Peace, and Happy Holidays. Pin |
My first experience with subs was memorable. I got a used pair of Vandersteen 4’s, large 4-way speakers with a powerful integrated sub built into the base of each speaker. Each sub (located in its own enclosure with a slotted port) consisted of 2 x 12" metal cone woofers linked together with a steel bar. That design produced the best bass I ever heard from floorstanders. And FWIW, I would never have a modern ported sub in my system now, but those Vandy ported subs sounded incredibly musical. Years later my audio system is desktop, all crammed into a 13’ x 13’ home office; the speakers are nearfield. I’ve learned to go with all sealed/acoustic suspension speakers & subs here. I can only fit 1 sub: currently it’s the excellent JL Audio e110, a powerful 10" design. The mains are vintage KEF 103.2s, 2-ways with a strong low end courtesy of the 8" woofers. I have the sub crossed over slightly above where the mains start dropping off. It sounds like one big pair of speakers. I’d never want to be without a sub... |
Added 2 REL S/5 SHO with their longbow wireless to Maggie 3.7i's. I don't have to worry about placement except for the AC power, no speaker wires to the subs. Opens up the soundstage, very clean and detailed bass. The wireless SMPS's are noisy and I had to take them off the dedicated lines as they were injecting a lot of noise. Made much worse by upgrading to iFi Power X, now I know why iFi sells DC power purifiers. |
@desktopguy I use Vandersteen 4As in my third system and the provision for low bass goes further with them than with most speakers - a separate crossover to control volume of low bass, a couple of high quality capacitors to roll the bass off from the mid/.high drivers and separate amplification - once properly set up it does work very well. Not many of those speakers out there and a great bargain today if you can find them. |
Correct on all points. I didn’t want to try to explain that stuff, which gets tricky. In conversation with Richard Vandersteen, he admitted that the electronic crossover, while sonically ideal for the subs, was less than ideal for the mid & upper drivers. I asked if he could mod mine to make it sound better, and he said, "It makes no sense for me to drop everything to mod a crossover, which would cost a lot to do anyway." I liked the direct way the man spoke... If I still had the 4s, I would get a high-quality aftermarket crossover by Marchand electronics and purchase 6 dB/octave slope frequency boards set at 80 Hz, high pass and low pass. That would be perfect. I have a different Marchand crossover in my desktop system (this model has variable frequency crossovers and uses 24 dB/octave slopes), and I can tell you it's very transparent. Anyway, that’s the way I think of it now. Back in the ’80s I ran my 4s exactly as you describe and was in love with that sound...all aspects of it were ideal for me. |
I think Richard was on the right track - roll the bass off for the mids and highs, which won't be affected by frequencies they can't reproduce well anyway, and use the electronic unit simply to adjust gain on the bass frequencies to suit the output of the mids and highs. Nice to hear of other 4 or 4A owners - pretty thin on the ground today. I've owned mine for many years and they are just too good to sell despite my having two other systems more current and also giving excellent sound. My Vandersteen system is over top 1990s vintage - amplified by a pair of PSE Studio IV monos on the bass, and twin mono Classe DR-3 VHC (at around 110 lbs each), biwired for mids and highs (with Classe DR7 preamp and Classe DAC1 D/A). A 'high Classé system ;-) |
@wspohn Wow, cool. The model 4 are getting long in the tooth and i believe no replacement drivers available. RV still use the same basic architecture of powered bass in the sub 3 and Quattro and up floor standers…because as noted it works ! Newer models include 11 bands of EQ below 120 hz. You should join us over on the Vandy owners forum…pictures of the model 4 would be a cool hit there… Best to you Jim |
@wspohn I know of a pair of PSE mono available in SoCal if needed for parts… |
Yes to all the positive replies. I was thinking my speakers are big enough(dual 15's) that I don't need them. Also running 600 watt monoblocds.... shouldn't need a sub... good bass still missing. Not the perfect system, but should give me the bass I need???? NO! |
at the end of the day all a subwoofer does is provide sub bass and some tapering bass and midbass frequencies. they are not some kind of magical atsmopheric enhancement machine. the frequencies you hear are those generated in a large concert hall environment and were previously lacking without the sub. those frequencies create the magic of the ambience and spaciousness.
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Follow-up- the T9/X arrived and it’s hell of a lot bigger than the T-zero. I’ve yet to dial it in fully but the amount of resonance generated by this thing is epic, even at low volume. I placed it on a 1.5” granite slab which helped tame it somewhat. I’m also limited to 1 spot for placement, I’m thinking I might have bitten off more than I can chew here. I’m gonna need to do some real fine tuning over the weekend. |
Besides adding some lower frequencies that your main speakers are not capable of, really the main reason for subs is to relieve the largest speakers in your main speakers of having to reproduce the lower frequencies that they can produce and allow them to focus on the midrange. If anyone is adding a sub or cranking up the bass just to get that chest thumping experience, I can almost guarantee that their music is out of balance without knowing much more. |
