@shtr74sims before you think he is too helpful, you might find it relevant @audphile1 understanding of Ethernet is that he thinks it is a paper smeared with peanut butter, dipped in sand and then crumbled. 

I found this video explaining switches. I hope it helps everyone as much as it has helped me. We are hopefully all here to help each other so there is no need to give each other a hard time. 
 

https://youtu.be/BHPwPRLxDWc

Apply a good filter when listening to ASR reviews. Amir is very experienced from the EE standpoint but you need to always remember he does these videos to get views and the audience he caters to have certain expectations. Usually they love him trashing all high end equipment, they favor specs and measurements and don’t bother listening. They feel great knowing that their $99 DAC measures better than a $7,000 cd player. That’s pretty much what ASR is all about. The cult and following is pretty amazing though. 

@audphile1 fair point, I saw they were not happy with the AQ Niagara 1200. I am very content with mine. There is zero background noise coming though my speakers when the music is off and the volume cranked up. 

Yup. But in your case your Pass Labs gear as well as the Bricasti are so low noise and quiet. I would run the X250.8 straight from the wall outlet using a good power cord. The M3 will benefit from power conditioning and so will the XP-12 but make sure the power cord feeding the power conditioner is on the level with the rest of the stuff. But I digress…back to ethernet…keep us posted on your progress. 

@fredrik222 Linus takes the Aqvox audiophile switch apart and the difference between the two apparently is they sanded the part # off a chip and glued a crystal on top of some of the chips.   Not a crystal oscillator, a crystal.

Oh yes, they glued the screws in.

That's funny stuff.

@audphile1 lol, you are funny. You know absolute 0 about networking, and yet you hand out advice. And then you rag on an electrical engineer who actually know a thing or two. Funny stuff! Sad that people listen you and people like you, but people wake up when what you tell them turns out to be crap, as always!

@tomrk yep! It is sad however that this is where the industry is at.

shtr,

Some good suggestions here. In case you end up going the route of an affordable but high quality ethernet cable, these are really good. $122 for an 8 meter cable

https://www.ebay.com/itm/155235053320?hash=item2424baef08:g:5UwAAOSwB4NW07FZ&amdata=enc%3AAQAIAAAAwJ%2FlgZG7Gbg%2Fl2ZoNmbd0tDEJmtMF%2FFLfYNEZYKhzPNyrWjXm1lzfbHwnGt9arnnup762L0VTX9%2BtLiilegdBlHvLoClizUo1dbniWWGdFUOTx0XzMbVJTYEgWxi4IPqNl5%2BKfihqBTIGnS78iLN02oR6RjyLlzxnCBIontX4GLtb%2BS%2B9RpVoc%2Bp%2BsGeUQK6MRq2JnukJ%2Fm%2BaH1koOng8Dka75sVfNFiTP3sVMwXs9D%2B%2BpStu%2BIaIltEV4bL4fHEqg%3D%3D%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR4jdyvf7YQ

They are my second best ethernet cables, oddly slightly behind the Audioquest Vodka which are my reference....but closer than you might suspect

@vthokie83 +1 on Supra CAT8! I had it and it’s pretty good. I also tried the version with Telegartner connectors which is better than the stock Supra. As good as the Supra is, and it’s a really good value for the money, it falls slightly short of the performance I hear from my Purist Audio CAT7 ethernet cable or the Network Acoustics Eno Streaming System. The Supra would be nice for a long run between the router and the switch or filter, with the last leg using something like the AQ Vodka into the streamer.

I alternate between the Purist and the Eno just to enjoy the different ways these cables make my system sound. The Purist is slightly more dynamic. The Eno is sweeter, slightly more silky and relaxed sounding in a nice way. Pretty cool to be able to switch between the two once in a while and appreciate the difference.

I have tried a lot of this streaming add-on stuff and my suggestion would be to simply hardwire an Ethernet cable to your streamer and then listen for a while and think about whether the sound meets your expectations.  There is always more stuff to try but, in my system, none of it has come anywhere close to the level of sound improvement I have achieved by improving my streamer and/or DAC.  Some thoughts:

• I have not heard noticeable differences in Ethernet cables so I went with a generic CAT 8 cable from Amazon because the CAT 8 is better shielded than the lower CAT numbers but, as has been said here, any CAT cable will likely work fine.  
• You could think about running your signal using fiber, instead of using Ethernet .  Fiber cables are very inexpensive, and the fiber provides isolation,  but you would need a converter at the router and another at your endpoint, near your system.  I have tried my 45-foot run both ways and cannot say I reliably hear a difference between Ethernet and fiber.  I am set up with fiber currently.
• You could also keep adding stuff, like:
  • a linear power supply on the fiber converter nearest your system, or at both converters (which is what I am doing)
  • a switch at your system, at the Ethernet endpoint or, just following the fiber converter, and then you have the option to run a shorter length of a higher quality Ethernet cable, or simply a very short cable, from the switch into your server (I am using two of the Bonn switches)
  • If you choose to run Ethernet and not fiber, you could consider optical isolation using something like the GigaFOILv4 INLINE Ethernet Filter (I have tried this)
  • some sort of isolation filter prior to your server, such as one of the Network Acoustics models, eno, muon, or muon Pro, which probably work best coming out of a switch with their own Ethernet cable into the filter and then the slaved, short network cable from the filter to the server  (I am using the muon system currently)
  • You can try different connectors between your server and DAC but some here will say those cables make no difference (muon USB in my system)
  • There are a bunch of other add-ons you can read about in these forums and try such as the EtherREGEN

You can spend a lot of money and time on this stuff so my suggestion is to go slow, research how others like the changes you are considering, and make sure you like each improvement before you move on.

Good luck

@mitch2 thank you for the suggestions. That’s the most informative so far. My DAC is hardwired at the moment and I am going to leave it what way for a bit. If anything I may get a blue Jean cable for a while, they are in spec and aren’t expensive. Part of the fun is trying different things to see what works and how the sound can change. I still can’t get over the new system from the old setup. The old one does not even compare and I had it for 15+ years. My wife even loves this setup, prob as much as I do at this point. 

You are welcome.  Just sharing my experiences. Two of the things I like most about a streamer/server set-up are how easy it is to operate and the wide range of music available that I wouldn't have otherwise found out about.  Just yesterday, I learned about three artists I was previously unaware of who are creating music that is similar to other artists I listen to. 

Regarding your hard-wired connection, that is for sure the best way to go, IME.  I have both fiber and Ethernet available over my 45-foot run so I can easily switch between them.  I have done so several times over the past couple of years, and I cannot reliably say I hear a difference - at least to the point where I would be comfortable saying I could tell one from the other based on a blind listening session.  

Regarding mesh networks, in my experience with residential applications, they are generally preferable to a single router when needed to provide internet over longer distances and they are certainly preferable to using boosters.  My outdoor system, which is set up in the garage, is connected to an Orbi mesh satellite, which has Ethernet jacks for hardwiring so, the signal travels wirelessly from my base router over the mesh network to the satellite and then over a short Ethernet cable to a Roon endpoint that feeds a DAC.  That set-up has been great functionally but I cannot comment on whether there are any sound quality differences compared to a hardwired connection directly from the base router, which I what I have always done for my main system. 

@fredrik222 my post letting everyone know that you don't understand streaming was removed.  If a moderator has a problem with that statement, please let me know what rule it violates.

You are spreading misinformation.  Streaming is not bitperfect as you are trying to convince people it is.

Jerry

Audphile1,

Yes as you point out, Supra cables are really good for the money, and there are better cables than the Supra cables. I think it’s important to highlight high quality cables at a more affordable price, as everyone deserves the benefit of good cables regardless of price point, or as important, good cables for a lower cost system.

I’ve found really good sound from Supra Cables (I have the Cat 8 Ethernet, Excalibur USB, 2.1 8K HDMI, and the same can be said for DH Labs, Zavfino, and Oyaide Neo.

All the best

@carlsbad2 It is not true to start with. 

Of course streaming is bit perfect, and on top of that it is not streaming from Qobuz, Tidal and others. It's a download. You can educate yourself on the Qobuz and Tidal support sites like I previously mentioned. 

So, again, you don't know what you are talking about. 

But I'll humor you. How is it not bit perfect given encryption, DRM, and the TCP/IP stack? 

And as a side note, here's where things break down, asking people who know nothing to explain, and they start the name calling when you debunk every single argument with facts. @audphile1  ring any bells?

fredrik222

Of course streaming is bit perfect, and on top of that it is not streaming from Qobuz, Tidal and others. It's a download.

No. Streaming and downloading are  two different things. It's rather odd that you keep insisting they are the same.

... here's where things break down, asking people who know nothing to explain ...

Ad hominem.  It's a logical fallacy that those challenging you "know nothing."

How about everyone put in their top 3 cables they have found work well ? No fighting now…. 

@shtr74sims here are my top picks from what I had tried…

1. Network Acoustics Eno Streaming System

2. Purist Audio Design CAT7 (I wouldn’t say it’s worse than Eno, just different but a good way)

3. Supra CAT8 with Telegartner connectors

4. Supra CAT8 with stock Supra ends

5. Amazon CAT8 is a really great cable for the money

Yellow and Blue ethernet cables work but they don’t sound as good as the ones on my list above.

@cleeds i never said that they are the same thing. I said that “streaming” from Qobuz, Tidal and others are not true streaming. You download the song in its entirety, and then playback from a cache. That is why simply why everything that “improves” Ethernet just doesn’t, and cannot do. Even OP said that the manufacturer said it doesn’t do anything. if you don’t believe me, look at their support sites and you will see what they say for yourself.

No one “challenges”, they just put a bunch of garbage out there that is not true. And then you give them enough rope to hang themselves… it is very sad that this is the state of the industry.

@audphile1 

5. Amazon CAT8 is a really great cable for the money

I agree, it seems well constructed.  That is what I use, and what I was pointing the OP to in my earlier post.  If I were starting, I would be happy with that for Ethernet cabling and would spend any additional money elsewhere.

fredrik222

i never said that they are the same thing. I said that “streaming” from Qobuz, Tidal and others are not true streaming. You download the song in its entirety, and then playback from a cache ...

No, that is mistaken. "Streaming" and "downloading" are two different things. A entire song does not "download" before streaming begins. In fact, it does not "download" at all, unless you choose to purchase the track and download it. For some reason, you seem intent on conflating streaming and downloading. I’m not sure why, but your insistence only makes your "debate" sillier. Just because there is a cache (extremely common in computing, by the way) does not mean a "download" is underway.

@fredrik222 

To test your theory, press play on a new (not previously played or downloaded) Tidal/Qobuz track and then immediately disconnect your ethernet cable from your streamer. Then please report back.

@cleeds that is how the Qobuz and Tidal work, through song download. Streaming is a continues stream however, that is not what Qobuz and Tidal does.. Don’t blame me, and go check your  cache settings. What do you think a cache is for, just curious? 
 

@ghasley there is a difference there, DRM check needs to happen still. You would have to force the music offline to do that.

Tip of the week from Naim: ““Tip of the week: Does your music sometimes get stuck or randomly skips to the next track? The likely cause is a cache issue.
The Qobuz app stores songs in its internal cache when you stream them. Occasionally incompletely cached tracks don’t clear out automatically.”

https://community.naimaudio.com/t/top-tip-for-qobuz-users/15990
 

From Qobuz: 
https://help.qobuz.com/en/articles/10143-how-much-music-can-i-listen-to-and-manage-offline

“Regarding cached music - the music that gets stored on your application while you listen - you can decide how much space to allocate for this, or choose to deactivate this function entirely, in your app’s settings. Please note: it is not possible to deactivate the cache functionality on PC/Mac.”
 

and this is what I mean, you give people enough rope to hang themselves, and they just jump straight in neck first without doing any research.

@carlsbad2  ok, so they deleted my response to you. Of course streaming and downloads are bit perfect, or it wouldn’t play. Which, in the case when you have high packet loss in true stream, is why experience a drop out, not something like a faint radio station would introduce, noise. 
 

But go ahead and explain, how is tcp/ip not bit perfect?

@fredrik222 No one serious about their music quality uses the Qobuz/Tidal app and I have heard qualitative differences between ethernet cables. Now, STFU and finish cutting Carlsbad's lawn, Cleeds is waiting on you as well.

More:” See an example of that in the attached graph from my Roon core playing 96/24 from Qobuz as a track ends and the next starts: a steady send rate to the playing endpoint, and a big burst receiving the next track. It’s all on 1Gb wired local network to the router, so that 140 Mbps burst is no problem.”

https://community.roonlabs.com/t/qobuz-192-not-working-despite-over-100-mbps/165568/8

@ghasley bam! Name calling, as predicted! 
 

Do you think Naim is serious equipment? What about Roon? Hifi Rose? You have not published your system so I can’t give you a link to your streamer of choice.

fredrik222

@cleeds that is how the Qobuz and Tidal work, through song download ...

Yes, you may choose to download tracks from Tidal and Qobuz. Many people choose to do that. Personally, I use Qobuz for streaming. Yes, that involves a cache but a cache is not a download any more than a stream is a download. Downloads cost $$$, so I don’t do it often.

The computer I’m working on now is a desktop running Windows 11 and actually has multiple caches. It’s how computers work, but that doesn’t mean it’s downloading.

Qobuzz and tidal “stream” the audio file to your player if you do not have a local copy.

some streamers do NOT provide any local storage, so you never get the cached track: it is going to stream the track every time.

If playing through a phone, a pad or a pc, or your streamer has storage to allocate, (or a nas to use) the apps will use local storage to cache your previously streamed, and saved/cached, track.

So qobuzz and tidal APPS CAN save a local copy IF there is storage they can use.  Otherwise you are strictly streaming.

There is some level of error recovery that can allow the track to play with some errors.  Too many errors and the track buffers or even just stops and tries to restart the stream.

I live with this everyday.. at least I will until I find time to fix my nas and assign a connection to it in the innuos pulse mini… then see if it will use that to cache anyway.  Otherwise, it will be  downloads and then point innuos to the nas to play downloaded tracks.

Though, I have to try attaching a usb drive to the pulse mini.. that might solve my local caching problem.

By the way, I had ethernet from router to pulse then short usb to dac.

Had a really high frequency hissing present.  I got my fibre media connectors yesterday and replaced the ethernet from router to pulse mini with an optical run. Convert ethernet to fibre->fibre to media converter to ethernet->short, shielded ethernet to pulse.  High frequency hissing went away.

So yes, ethernet to fibre and back does “clean up” noise.

@fredrik222 

You have not published your system so I can’t give you a link to your streamer of choice.

Fred, since you asked I use Grimm MU1 streamer-server/DCS Apex dac/Audio Note Jinro amp/Devore speaker setup at home. I have a Roon Nucleus+/Hifi Rose 150b/Sugden IA4 amp/Devore speaker setup at the office for background music.

Frederic, why do you even frequent Audiogon? You claim there is absolutely no difference between digital cables and yet most who experience the difference, good and bad, take your insistence and inflexibility as a clear mark of ignorance. Your repeated insistence only cements those opinions. 

@ghasley  there you go. Roon download per already posted link above. Hifi rose says in their support that you cannot turn off cache for Qobuz.

it invalidates the entire argument that cables or switches can make a difference. That is why it matters. If it isn’t a stream, how can a cable make a continuous improvement. Answer, it can’t. 

@fredrik222 

If it isn’t a stream, how can a cable make a continuous improvement. 

Frederik, you have me mixed up with someone else...I'm not trying to convince you of anything. I KNOW what I hear and I know that cable A sounds better than cable B and cable B sounds substantially better than a popular generic cable touted in this very thread. Given your deep dive into how all is cached and they are bit perfect.... then if they sound different from one another it must be the cable if all else is constant. With that said, you don't have to go to any trouble writing a reply because I can't think of anyone who wants your opinion here. Certainly not me.

@ghasley you jumped right in, neck first, and as predicted went to name calling.

the issue I have is when  people genuinely wants to learn are told a bunch of lies and then spend money they don’t have to. There is so much snake oil in this industry, and this is literally a binary thing, yet people want to attach analog properties to a digital protocol, and when proven wrong, the name calling starts. 

@fredrik222

I havent called you any names. Point to it please. I did make a sarcastic inference that your time might be better spent cutting the lawn...for which I am not in the least regretful.

The most important point you make is you seem to believe that someone asked you to protect them from something...if they did, it wasn’t me. I believe what I hear, the differences aren’t subtle and when they are, I say it. I’m not trying to sell anything or tout one method over another. That’s for the individual to decide. Many of us here have formed relationships and when we have experience with something and they ask, we chime in. Its the way a community works. If you don’t agree, cool, if you disagree, cool.

You seem to think that because you work in networking that it will change some minds. It might, just not mine. I was bullheaded and inflexible before I experienced it myself. In fact, I sold a successful IT company many years ago and understood digital prior to you reaching puberty. Ones and zeroes.....I sang from the same hymnal....until I experienced otherwise. There is literally nothing you can offer that will change my mind but dont take it personally. It isnt personal but if your sole purpose for being on Audiogon is to convert the masses to the cult of ASR then you are wasting your not so precious time.

@ghasley  so you say without knowing anything about my experience, so who is inflexible now?

@fredrik222 I read your CV that you proudly posted a while back so I am aware that you are a computer and data networking expert. Of that I have no doubt. Not only do I not give a dog's bollocks, I find you arrogant and pushy with your knowledge. You know more about networking than I ever will and I know about what I enjoy listening to in my system than you ever will. Others feel the same way...you have few if any meaningful interactions here. Of course you are welcome to be the bird that continuously drops poo on every discussion if you like, I'm rather indifferent and others may or may not be.

The shelf life of pushing your expertise on others here as a defacto final arbiter on what other people hear in their systems and in their homes has reached the end of its relevance. 

fredrik222

... the issue I have is when  people genuinely wants to learn are told a bunch of lies and then spend money they don’t have to ...

So you've appointed yourself ... what, exactly? The arbiter of truth? A savior?

... Hifi rose says in their support that you cannot turn off cache for Qobuz ...

With apology to Tom Jones, That's Not Unusual.

If it isn’t a stream, how can a cable make a continuous improvement.

Qobuz is a streaming service. Downloads are a pay-as-you-go option, but many Qobuz users rarely if ever actually pay for downloads. They're happy to just stream along. You conflate streaming, caching, and downloading.

I have heard from someone who works for Aurender, that their streamers do cache entire songs when “streaming”

Everything caches! The OP was curious about ethernet cable options.

It is immediately obvious and apparent that there is one particular user here who is uninformed about the structure, mechanisms and "building blocks" that comprise the Internet protocols and how these protocols interact with the components in use at the receiving end and I would recommend he acquire, read and study a basic introductory text on digital communications. In particular I reference his remark "invalidates the entire argument that cables or switches can make a difference" as erroneous, misleading and misinformed as has been sufficiently and amply explained by others who have specific, relevant, applicable experience to the matters under discussion.

One problem I often and frequently observe is that those who make such claims, arguments, and assertions have a "feeling" that science and engineering should be "intuitive" but that is not usually the case until you have gained advanced knowledge, skill, and understanding and have combined those particular achievements with actual real world experience.

@shtr74sims 

I have asked the same questions as you over the last two years. Had bought a wifi extender, and then ethernet to my streamer. It was a solution, and an improvement over wifi.

Since have switched to ethernet cable (an existing 15 year old phone cable changed to RJ45).

Bought Triode Wire Labs Freedom ethernet cables. Run from from wall to switch, and then to streamer. Also a Pink Faun LAN Isolator. And a modded switch. All were improvements. Also switches and wifi router powered by Plixir LPS.

I've found Freddy22 has one message, and will argue/derail a thread. No stating his opinion and withdrawing. Continual harassment.

I think this Freddy22 should be allowed and granted sufficient time to reassess his approach which has been revealed as factually flawed and I prefer to leave questions and references to his personality out of the discussion because it is not really relevant to the technical issues that he is struggling to grasp, understand and accept lets please give him a chance. 

@jerrybj how hard was it to change the old phone jack from the wall to Ethernet ? I have one on the same side of the room as my setup ? Everything is setup and running good now. Looking for long term setup. Thank you 

@ghasley its odd how we come here to ask valid questions that benefit everyone and where the conversation goes. There is already enough negativity in the world. We come here to help each other and it finds its way here to. 

@clearthink factually flawed, how so? let’s dig into the technology and show me why it is factually flawed. Like I have said many times, once you give people enough rope to hang themselves, they do it willingly. 
 

@ghasley so first no one caches because it isn’t the purest stream, then everyone caches? Well, at least you learned something.

@cleeds even with overwhelming evidence from Roon, Naim, and Qobuz, you still chose to die on the hill of streaming. Oh well. Fun times. I mean if you don’t listen to service itself, or manufacturers, where do you get your information from?

@shtr74sims

I was unable to replace the 12m run of phone cable, as it goes through a flat roof from modem to my system. I would have done this if possible.

The cable was Cat5, so compatible. My electrician did the work. I’m sure there are videos on how to do this if you are so inclined.

Have read in a few places that your best ethernet cable should be the last in the chain to your streamer, which is what I’ve done. On the modem side I have Meicord Opal, Blue Jeans and Supra Cat8 ethernet cables.

I’m going to keep out of the argument with F2. If ignored, he might stop.