Ethernet opinions

@jerrybj thank you, much appreciated. 

@cleeds  Ok, now I see the problem. You never read what I posted. 

They call it a streaming service, yes, that is a fact. Also a fact, they actually don't have a continuous stream, your streamer/player download each song individually then play it back. That is how the technology works. Why do they do this? Quality. Lots of things can happen on the internet during a 4 minute song, very little happens on a local network during 4 minutes.

fredrik222

They call it a streaming service, yes, that is a fact.

We've made progress if you now accept that streaming and downloading are two different things. If, however, you are going to continue with your word salad and conflate streaming, caching, and downloading as all being the same thing, then you are just being argumentative. The facts here are clear, and you've acknowledged them. Let's move on.

@clearthink factually flawed, how so? let’s dig into the technology and show me why it is factually flawed.

Let me start you off:

Jitter - since it's an actual download, jitter means nothing.

Noise from RFI/EMI - Somehow analogue noise is imbedded into the download? Nope, not how it works, the download would fail all sorts of checks, including DRM.

Clock - again, it's a download so it doesn't mean anything, and even it wasn't, all switches has clocks tuned to the speed of the network interface cards. 

@cleeds  you are confusing the name of the service with how the technology works. Nothing has changed.

You can name it whatever you want, but that doesn’t mean anything for how the technology works. You still download the songs from a technology perspective when you are using a streaming service. Again, why? Because it improves the user experience.

fredrik222

You can name it whatever you want, but that doesn’t mean anything for how the technology works.

Exactly. You can call a stream a download or a horse a zebra. But that says nothing about how they work. Some people enjoy such word games and serving up word salad. Suit yourself.

@fredrik222 

Your irrelevance to the discussion continues to inexpicably decline. Quit while you are behind….you remain off-topic.

@ghasley  you are wrong. You started out saying no caching, and when to everyone caches! So you learned something. That's a win. 

@fredrik222 I don’t recall saying anything about “no cacheing”…you’ve still yet to point to where I called you a name. Your continuous, irrelevant posts are really cute though…

Caching streamers save the track to cache, whether that is ram only (ie, innuous pulse mini uses 2gb Ram for this when playing from a service, or a streamer that uses a local drive for caching, ie, an ssd or a card to save the cached track to “offline content” which is configured in the app.  Where there is no local storage for the app, qobuzz/tidal to use, you cannot save the cached stream long term as offline content.

Where there IS local storage (playing on phone or ipad, uses that device’s storage for “offline content”), of whatever type, to use, there is a setting to save streamed content locally as offline content.  That content is exclusive to the app.  Or you can just download tracks as files that can be played through the streamer itself then through the dac.

So a service such as tidal/qobuzz can do one of three things, caching to ram, saving cached to ram track out to disk as offline content, OR saving a downloaded file out to generic storage where any app that can read the format can use it. (For example stuff downloaded from, ie hdtracks.. I have yet to try the qobuzz download to see if those are only allowed to be played by qobuzz app)

The error checking for “streaming” happens against the incoming data that assembles into the track in cache.  If there are too many errors, the track “buffers”, ie the system requests that portion of the track that failed error correction, to be re-sent and wats for an error free response.  If that happens with too many parts of the track, or there is a continuous, short term, issue with the connection, the entire track is requested to be sent again.

This is evident on an unstable internet connection when requesting a service’s app to play a track.  The download will start, and possibly start to play, then the bar showing the track’s progression will start again, playin the track either a few seconds for a few attempts, then it will start from the beginning, lr it just resets and tries to re-transmit the entire track.

If the track is not able to be completely cached, error free, after a set number of tries, the app will end its attempts to play that track.  If you have another track request queued, the app gives up on the first and moves on to the next queued track, else it just stops attempting to play anything.

Enough with arguing jargon already, please.  Whatever the precise terms are, this is what I observe in real life as a rural customer with crappy internet.  Whether you want to refer to the saved tracks in the “offline content”  for the app as “saved stream”, “saved cache” or “downloaded” doesn’t matter to me.  Purchased and downloaded tracks serve me better for hires tracks, since I can get an entire file, and use with any playback system that can read flac, eventually, without the streaming app deciding there have been too many failed attempts and quitting on the track.  Successful streaming for me is usually limited to cd quality, except on days when even that is failing.

ALL Streamers “cache” or buffer each “streaming content” object and perform error checking on the incoming packets. Period.  What they do with that successfully received track in buffer or cache, and the process for error check fails, is a function of the service and what configs you set/can set, for the hardware running the interface to the service.

Downloaded tracks don’t buffer or cache as they are not “streaming content” but whole files and are not, usually, tied to a specific service to be able to play back and have a more robust, seemingly, process for getting a whole, error free, file.

@shtr74sims 

Once you sort out the 25 FT long LAN cable quandary, read up on posts by @audphile1, @grannyring and few others who are using Network Acoustics Muon Pro Kit for next level improvements with your network. There are many other tweaks that provides ethernet noise filtering but none can quite match the performance upgrade from both ENO and Muon passive filtering kits. And they come with 30 days no questions asked money back guarantee. 
https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/network-acoustics-muon-ethernet-filtering-system-improving-streaming?page=2
 

@lalitk thank you, audphile1 sent me a private message yesterday. 🙂

I’ve actually gone back and forth the last few days between the Purist and Eno. The Eno just has this silkiness and results in a presentation that is less “digital” and more natural especially in the vocals sibilance without taking away resolution and details. It relaxes it all just enough to not impact musicality and engagement.

These differences aren’t night and day between these two very good cables, but enough for the Eno to stay in the system pretty much most of the time. I just can’t un-hear it. Time after time, the results are consistent.
Again, I just want to make sure that we’re all on the same page….it’s what I hear in my system with my ears and is based on my perception of good sound. System synergy, resolution, room acoustics…everything comes into play. I can totally believe that some won’t hear any difference in their system in their rooms with their ears…there are many reasons as to why that could be the case. Keep your mind and ears open!

Sorry for your loss.  Been there.  I spent a year exploring and implementing that whole digital delivery side....ended up with piggy backed switches, SOtM dbcl Cat6 cables between tem and to my Lumin server.....but to your situation.  I had to use a 20 meter cable from one switch to the other.  Supra Cat8 does a great job here without breaking the bank.  Some great reviews on "Audiobacon"

Good luck!

Either you ethernet cable is so bad it causes packet loss, or it doesn't. Any cable that will carry your TCP packets across will be equivalent. Buying any kind of "high-end" ethernet cable to pull across a room is a complete waste of money and anyone telling you differently don't know what they are talking about. Don't spend money on expensive Cat cables from some voodoo audio shop. I is a complete scam.

nevada_matt

If the track is not able to be completely cached, error free, after a set number of tries, the app will end its attempts to play that track.  

That is not how Qobuz works, at least in my system with a Bryston BDP-3 and the internet speed you see here. To test this, I selected a track in Qobuz and immediately disconnected the ethernet connection as soon as the music started. I got about 3 minutes of music before the playing stopped.

The notion that a track is perfectly stored to cache - or "downloaded" as one user here insists - is simply mistaken.

You can easily prove this for yourself but here's a word of caution: the BDP-3 didn't take kindly to the ethernet disconnect. I had to reboot it to regain function. I also rebooted the DAC, so I'm not sure which (or both) accounted for the problem.

Ethernet is Ethernet you’ll have zero gain if you use an expensive cable. As long as your cable is well made, not a cast away from a data center. You’re at as good as it gets. Ethernet packets don’t care what copper they run on, it’s basically 3 parts with actual data in the middle, if it arrives missing, it’s sent again. That happens too fast for you to notice. I stream a lot via Roon to a Trinnov AL16 over CAT6, a whole box of CAT6 @ 1000’ feet is around 200.00. My company does IT consulting. I know data and packets. 

@adsell I don’t use castaway cables from my data center. They periodically yell out “Wilson!!!” And that distracts my speakers.

@audphile1 LOL.

Seriously, if you knew the distance the lowly packet has traveled over the untold number of switches and converters from and to fiber and Ethernet over copper, Your 25' of expensive cable is meaningless. The Data is the data; it’s not analog or a waveform that can be made purer via magic copper braid or sending it through a switch one more time just before it enters your player. It’s like saying my web browser and pages are more precise when I use name-brand audiophile Ethernet cables to surf the web. A bad cable will cause all kinds of havoc in a network, or a bad network card can be chatty and cause network-wide slowdowns, or malware, for that matter.

If you are interested in how ethernet works:

Ethernet Packets

Also, if you would like to see what it takes to get a packet from Qobuz.com to your home, open a command prompt (Dos prompt, etc.) (type CMD in the run command or search on the Windows machine of your choice.

Perform a "trace route" on qobuz.com or tidal.com or whatever music service you like: C:\tracert qobuz.com   (type TRACERT at whatever prompt your says, then type in the name of whatever you want to test. Do google.com if you like. It will show how many hops your data request goes through before arriving at your desktop or music server. You might see that some hops time out, and your request is rerouted to the next hop.

@adsell I’m glad you appreciated the joke. I’ll leave it at that as far as our discussion is concerned. 

@adsell nice system!

Lots of advice, some good some meh.

Here's more.  Isolating your system from ethernet noise is your goal.  First an audiophile switch just before your system with a LPS and second an ethernet cable with filter like the ENO.

Don't believe the knuckle-heads that tell you non audiophile cables and switches are just as good.

I have English Electric, EtherRegen and SOtM switches in that order with LPS's.  Two is better than one and three is better than two.  I have the ENO Ag and 3 SOtM Ethernet cables with filters.  And the EtherRegen and SOtM are clocked and while clocking locks the sound in you can achieve a lot with just one switch and filter in front of your system.

I just recently bought 3 nordost replica's ethernet cables. I filter them through a paramax 5300pm and 2 DX Engineering ISO-PLUS Ethernet RF Filter. So I connect the 3 ethernet cables with the 2 iso-plus filters to my pc onto my dac. It is amazing how much better it sounds, and I already had a better than stock cable that I replaced a supra patch cable which isn't to shabby in its own right. And for what it cost it out ways any guilty conscious I might have for buying them from aliepress.

@grh1958 Indeed, there are gains to be had optimizing the ethernet stream. Many won’t agree, however, with the idea that a counterfeit versus a close copy is an option.

As far as cables are concerned the best ethernet cable I've experienced in my system is the Omega Micro Ebony. It also happens to be one of the least expensive. Under $100 for 3ft.

shtr74sims

My condolences for your loss. I can relate on the Lung CA front. How is your Cable search going?

Happy Listening!

@jafant thank you, the search is on hold at the moment. I just finished training with the military and I am leaving at the end of the week to go to Mexico to visit my wife’s family. I will receive my butcher block tonight from ikea and I had a friend install brass inserts so I can use the iso bands from butcher block acoustics for my DAC. 🙂

shtr74sims

Outstanding! Thank You for your Service.

Happy Listening!

@jafant thanks for the support. I am probably going to do acoustic panels first. I will get more out on everything that way too. I have talked to GIK a bit as well as @audphile1 about them. Just need the time to sit down and decide what I want to get at this point. 

AudioQuest is known for producing higher-end cables, including their Vodka series. These cables are designed with specific construction and materials that are claimed to improve performance. However, whether the improvement in sound quality justifies the higher cost is subjective and depends on personal preferences and priorities.

Blue Jeans Cable is another popular brand that offers Ethernet cables at a lower price point. Their focus is on providing cables that meet the necessary specifications while maintaining affordability. Many users have reported great results with Blue Jeans Cable and have found them to be a cost effective option.

Ultimately, the decision to invest in a high-end cable like AudioQuest or a more affordable alternative like Blue Jeans Cable depends on personal preference, budgetary considerations, and the importance you place on potential sound quality improvements. It's worth noting that in some cases, the differences between cables may be imperceptible and inconspicuous in a given setup.