Esoteric DV-50: Any cdp's Significantly better?

Tom, I often I remember saying that. I would predict that in less than two years the APL will be long gone. I too cannot imagine anything better than the Exemplar 3910, but already there is talk about the Denon 5910. Especially on digital forever is about 6 to 8 months.

Jayctoy

You are exactly right. I bought my APL 3910 as the result of this thread and the experience of those on it. It was a crapshoot except for the information received here. That was a lot. There will always be hype for any product, but much less here than the manufacturers. For the most part I found most people's intentions here to be clean. That was to find the best CDP they could. I'm not sure anyone could go wrong with most of the products mentioned on this thread. Except of course for the unmodded DV-50 (too expensive for what I now know exist). That was my only listening comparison. I can tell you this, I told my wife (for the 1st time ever) this piece will always remain. Even if I put together a whole new system, it will be around the APL 3910 That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
Tom

Tbg I totally agree with you, anyone who want to buy
a cdp, they should do the best, they can to audition it, in their own system, and in their own listening room.This is
the way to go.But how about those who dont have access
with this cdp? Can you tell me,what is the most practical
way for them to audition one? Like Eric stated in his
post, Modifiers wont send you a cdp for us to hear it.
In my case, I call the guy who own the sonymodwright.
And did a lot a research.I have been very happy with my
player.This thread will help someone to make decisions,
One example is Jose21 He bought the APL, and He thank
711 for his thought about the APL,He is a happy APL
owner,Dolfan according to him, He read AVguru's post
after the first shootout, He thinks the the way to go
is the SonyModwright, He is also very happy with his
Sonymod.This thread would help someone to at least get
a good idea,its a little bit of gamble.Peter is also
a happy Sonymodwright owner,1Markr is still trying
to burn in his player, He will post, when the burn
in period is done.

Those of you who expected that the shootout would result in one unit standing have seen too many westerns. Having heard the TEAC DV-50 several times against first the Exemplar 2900 and more recently the Exemplar 3910, I cannot imagine how anyone could find it competitive, but many love it. That is what make horse races.

It is unfortunate that dealers have all but vanished denying us the opportunity to compare before we buy, but anyone buying these various units considered is going to get a good sounding unit. It may not be the unit you would have bought had you been able to compare all of them. This is the same with your car, your dog, and dare I say it your wife or husband. Be happy and enjoy. This thread is not going to tell you what to buy.

Thanks Lazarus! My last posting yesterday was more reflective of how my day was developing than anything else. Your method of choosing equipment would be the ideal one, and in the greatest majority of circumstances the most enjoyable one. I would opt for it in an eyeblink, except for. . . WAF! Sometimes I feel I am a 'closet audiophile'. Isn't that a horrible thing?

Reading Ehfm's post of 2/8 about different warm-up times, I'm curious about what controls were in place for the comparisions. Seems to me the fewer things controlled for, the less meaningful/accurate any diffences you noted would be. Did the group control for level? Why not for warm-up? Were only certain other things plugged in as a control? Did people stand in different places in the room for different players? I'm honestly curious. I don't mean to disparage anyone.

guido - sarcasm aside, these aren't certainties - that's part of my whole point. i'm not trying to be condescending or rude. like i said, this is merely my opinion and you can take it or leave it. that's all. i have no problem if you disagree or find my suggestions impractical. i respect the opinions of those in the shootout and every other poster here, whether or not i agree.

like i said, i'm just posting because i felt the particular viewpoint *i* have wasn't being expressed, and i wanted it to be. so those who read this thread have more options of viewpoint. more options is generally a good thing, no?

so, i do apologize if i come off as condescending. i truly don't mean to. and i don't necessarily feel that the way i do things is any better than anyone else's in an absolute sense. it's just better for *me*. whatever works for you is cool.

take care,

Hey Jayctoy, maybe in the middle of having fun you forgot I'm a dealer, too. :-)

Spoke with 711 today, who kindly called to say he found my CD that was left in his player by accident. We'll see if he has anything to say here.

Brian

Lazarus28, Thank you for providing us with your certainties on the best way to enjoy this hobby. If I could share them, and perhaps extend them to the rest of my existance, my life would in fact be a lot simpler.
Alas no, I have to contend with uncertainty, limitations, opinions, half truths, contraddictions, and the rest of the miserable mess that make things just inperfect and routine. But thank you for trying to enlighten us.

EARS,
OH MY GOD, here you go again ranting and raving about the Onkyo DV-SP1000.
Get a life man.
Are you trying to tell me that my system does not have enough resolution, and my hearing is not good enough to tell that the Linn Unidisc and Esoteric are CLEARLY sonically better than the 1000 on all formats?
Get it through your hard head...THERE ARE BETTER UNIVERSAL PLAYERS OUT THERE THAN THE ONKYO DV-SP1000!!!STOCK and modified!!!
Daltonlanny is a believer! I met him this afternoon. He only lives a town away from me! What are great, fun, honest, and knowlegeable guy! He is a blast to be around.
He said my system was absolutely awesome and to-die-for. He said he has never heard such a complete and detailed system in his life.
[Makes me feel good that all my hard work and auditioning tons of components finally paid off!]
He also said that he could not believe how much better my Linn Unidisc was sonically on ALL FORMATS than his FORMER Onkyo DV-SP1000.
He said if he had the money, he would buy the Unidisc without hesitation or a second thought.
Granted we did agree that the Onkyo has a better picture, and is built like a tank. But that is as far as it goes!
If you think the Onkyo is so good, take Tgun5 up on his offer above. I think you would change your mind rather quickly!
Nice to meet you, daltonlanny!

Ears if indeed your dealer is very understanding,and
willing to accept what you dont like, that to me is
wonderful,BUT I HAVE NOT FOUND ONE YET, Ive been
in this hobby for 17 years.Most of them they get upset
when you decide you are not buying.
I prefer the Shootout compare to listening on the dealers
room,no pressure.This last shootout we did is fun,and
everybody enjoyed it,I did not include my opinion,
because I wasnt in the best seat,and I am busy putting
the cd, and adjusting volumes.I trusted the group on
their opinion.

To All - thanks for the results from the shoot out. Its been eagerly anticipated. I for one, have purchsed the APL 3910 and it is a fantastic unit. I have not heard the others, but eagerly await the chance.

Thanks again for all of the info provided over the last months. Learning never stops!!!!

S.

Where is 711? We are all anxious to hear your thoughts...

An open invitation. Anyone that wants to compare the modified DV-50 and their unit, come to my home. I welcome anyone with any player. Bring cables, isolation, or whatever, but the comparison will be with the same products on both machines.

Stock DV-50's, two-box units, or whatever. If someone has a APL 3910, that would be great, otherwise I anxiously await the APL demo unit. I'm always willing to spend the time to hear new things.

This will be my last post to this forum, so if you are willing to visit Sandusky, Ohio, email me direct.

guido - i'll say that auditioning at a store is just as poor of a guide. i stand by the fact that you have to listen to something for a long period of time, in a system you know to really offer a definitive opinion on the matter. and i post this because i want readers of the shootout results to keep perspective of this. there has been some megalomaniacal sentiment concerning some involved with the shootout, who believe that the results are somehow infallible and universally true. i am just trying to balance it out and hopefully help people keep perspective.

luckily for me when i buy new gear, i know my audio dealer's system very well because he's a friend. so i can spend as long as i like listening to it. and, like he always says "you're not gonna hurt *my* feelings if you don't like it."

and the best part is that he means it. i've told him when i wasn't as fond of something, and he really doesn't get upset. he doesn't want to sell you something you don't like. so, it's completely no-pressure.

the other option, and the one i utilise the most is to buy used. when you buy used, you can hear a lot of equipment, keep it in your system, and sell it for what you bought it for. (more or less) the only thing you're out is shipping costs.

Dbld,
You obviously must have a personal problem after reading your statements above.
You newbie members are getting a bit out of control with your exaggeration on differences between players imo.

Audio girl, the difference you suggest between these players is not very realistic.
One of the players compared to the 1000 in my set up was my Modwright signature 9000es with the more expensive Jensen caps, bybees ect.
This player would be considered by some to be at least somewhat better than the DV-50.
The reality is that it was sold and the 1000 remains.
Yes it was slightly better at redbook, but no better for sa-cd to speak of.
None of these other players are as good with video.... so overall, the 1000 was the better player.

This is the same basis for these review comparison results were the 1000 beat the DV-50 as a whole package.
I don't consider these reviews any more biased than a G98 owner saying things like there not in the same leauge ect.

And Dave, enough with the drama as there is nothing wrong whith posting about this comparison which was not done by myself to begin whith, and I clearly stated...don't kill the messenger.

I seem to remember you posting a very defensive post on another board defending the DV-50, when nobody even mentioned the dv-50.

Relax people....there just players for god's sake.

Lazarus28, deciding to prefer a player over another after a brief afternoon shootout is in fact somewhat less remarkable than deciding to purchase the same after an audition in a store. In the store it is only you and the consultant. In the shootout you are in a friendly audience with whom you can exchange views, and where noone has an obvious financial vested interest. Not a bad environment at all to make a decision.

I am not a fan of the "shootout" term. However I do like the concept albeit limited in scope, and I like knowing that others too suffer from DAC.

Perhaps you cannot pick the more/most preferable player because of many of the reasons listed above. Nevertheless, if a player is clearly inferior, hopefully, this would be noticed.

Regardless, I like hearing different people's observations, and look forward to more "shootouts" and even hearing some of these player for myself sometime.

It seems there was not a "clearly inferior" machine at the last meeting. At least we know some folks had fun. Oh well, the search continues...as if that was going to change after a "shootout!"

Daltonlanny
I was not comparing for the sake of comparing the modded dv-50. I was simply comparing the DV-50 stock as the intial thread asked for. I have no idea what the modded DV-50 sounds like.
Tom

"Let me put it another way: If someone said here is a check for $7000, you can purchase just one of these players and if money is left over you must return it, I would pick the Modwright 9000ES."

so, you can make a definitive statement like that, without hesitation, after listening to the player for such a short period of time? you really think that you fully know all the nuances of that player well enough after, what, 1 hour MAX of listening to it in an unfamiliar system? beyond that, you're so sure that you understand and know all the nuances of all the *other* cd players there, played in an unfamiliar system, after only having heard a few test tracks on them?

remarkable.

Carmantom and others:
Just a reminder, the Esoteric DV-50 used in the shoot-out at Mr.Walshes was NOT a stock unit. It had a few mods from Reference Audio Mods. So it is not fair to compare a stock DV-50 to it.

There were meaningful differences in this listenting session between each of the three players, I can assure you of that.

It was easiest to compare the APL unit against the Modwright because they each excel in different areas. The DV-50 sort of trailed behind, or was in between the sonic strengths and weaknesses of the other two units.

Alex, I like your sense of humor. Maybe I can speak with you or meet you sometime. Your unit excelled in certain respects.

BTW - we didn't all agree to agree. I've stated my preference and I'm sticking to it. I respectfully disagree with Tom. The other units were not universally "warmer" -- certainly not the APL. And if the Sony unit was "warmer" it was just a tad.

As far as conditions, the DV-50 had the longest warm up time of any unit; Steve walked in and just plugged his unit in and was ready to go. Bon arrived later.

Brian asked ahead of time if anyone needed a balanced setup. I know that Tom thinks the DV-50 would have done better running balanced interconnects, but oh well.

Let me put it another way: If someone said here is a check for $7000, you can purchase just one of these players and if money is left over you must return it, I would pick the Modwright 9000ES.

As Tom stated, he came to the audition prepared to purchase another player if his unit was blown away in his opinion. I thought similarly -- before spending my money I would like to compare. So, to me, the admittedly short afternoon had value.

I admit, my ears may be leaden, take what I say with a teaspoon of salt. But I don't own any of these modified players and I am not beholden to their owners or the people that modified them.

If the EMM gear had shown up, or the Kern 777ES, and had either wiped the floor with the other units, I would say so. Last Saturday, I found the Modwright unit to be the most enjoyable unit in the room.

- Eric

I have followed this thread for quite some time now. I was led here as a result of being a DV-50 owner. I wanted to research things on Agon about my CDP that other owners had experienced. As I continued to follow, I realized there might be something even better out there.
After input from many people I have come to respect in their opinions I decided to call Alex. After a couple of chats with him, it was easy to understand I was talking to someone who was several levels higher than most in know the technology of audio. I even discussed the possibilty of modding my DV-50. Once again the more I discussed this with Alex it seemed clearer to me that APL 3910 would be a superior machine.
I do not claim to have the "audiophile experience" that many have here. Nor can I use the fancy language that so many subscibe to.. I have however been involved with music for over 40 years as a musician and singer.
It is only now in my 50s that I have made a decision to build and buy the 2 channel system of my dreams. I have only been working on this for a couple of years now and bought and sold tens of thousands of equipment.
Sorry for the long-winded preface but these are my observations of my DV-50 vs. the APL 3910
The DV-50 wasn't even close.
It was as if a blanket was lifted off the soundstage. I think this means the APL was much more transpaent. I listen often to female vocals. Natalie Merchant, Amanda Mcbroom, and many more were now performing for me live. The space where the notes end and the space starts were nothing less than breathtaking. Each pause between notes were as meant to be, as important as the notes. I think you guys call this blackness. The bloat in the bass I found in the Esoteric was gone in the APL 3910. The pace and speed of the 3910 was lively and body involving. I think that is referred to as "musicality" . there was a sterility to the DV-50 I could never understand. Almost like a sound built in a lab.
The odd thing of all of this is that up until I received my APL 3910 there was not a finer cd player in my book than the DV-50. It did all the things right as far as I knew.
My purchase of the DV-50 was the best I had ever heard. That made it the best as far as I was concerned, until I heard the APL 3910.
I guess the real question is how many things are out there that might be better, and it is me that don't know it, because I haven't heard it yet.
The question is , "Is it enough to know to ourselves that our unit is great sounding to our ears in our own home?"
It's quite probable that we are all right, given different systems,ears,musical tastes and budgets.

Esoteric DV-50: Any cdp's Significantly better?
To me YES! The APL 3910
Tom

OK, I guess my efforts to focus on the music went for not...

However, we all have to thank Audio Girl for tonights object lesson:

"DO NOT PUT ALL YOUR FAITH IN REVIEWS!"

Unfortunately, the same must be said for shootouts, and the axiom holds even more truth for those well-meaning endeavours. #;)>

A digression if I might:

In my opinion, the hallmarks of a good audio review have always included the following elements:

1) A known baseline of comparison (reference system/partnering components and software

2) An accurate description of the component's sonic attributes, preferably in more than one system or at least with different ancilliary components. Ideally (although rarely) compared against said reference/baseline components.

3) Devoid of adjectives such as as or 'best' or 'ultimate' or when they are used, they are used in the context of elements 1) and 2)and occasionally in the context of the reviewers own musical priorities (some of you may remember the "golden years" of TAS in the early 90s when the magazine regularly published articles featuring one of their reviewers system(s), listening room(s) and listening biases)

Now back to our regularly scheduled program:

Shootouts introduce so many additional variables into the 'reviewing' equation that drawing meaningful conclusions is virtually, if not completely impossible.

Indeed, in this most recent shootout, the participants themselves are finding it hard to find meaningful differences between source components that have as different a pedigree as Dobermans and Chihuahuas. Each unit had a different transport, DAC chipsets, Power supplies, and analog output stages and yet they 'sounded more similar than different'.

Personally, I find it very hard to believe. Perhaps there was, as some have suggested, an overriding characteristic in the system that negated or minimized the differences that, based on my (admittedly extrapolated) experience, almost certainly existed.

Where does the excercise leave us?? Yet again, the quest to find a foolproof method of auditioning by proxy reaches its ultimate, and preordained conclusion.

Say Good Night Gracie....

With the exception of a few slurs from the pig pen, the comments from the shootout have been entertaining and rewarding. I too would have preferred a blind test but, I do like the 10 category 5 point scorecard approach. I hope to be seeing more of these shootouts in the future. Even hope to participate is some.

I should also mention that successful entrepreneurs always exhude plenty of confidence in their product. It's expected. Here Alex deserves a complement. I certainly hope his enthusiasm, confidence and colorful opinions in his own products and handiwork never wans. And, the same goes for other vendors, modifiers, etc., out there. It is this enthusiasm that drives them for higher goals. I just wish the Ram and Modwright fellows would also chime in from time to time. Shill and hype keep the audio business thriving so for goodness sakes let's not loose it.

I would also encourage vendors and modifiers, and all for that matter, to disrespect any slurring and invective behavior by merely not responding or disregarding the post(s). To respond is like getting in a pig pen with pigs. Things will just get nasty and dirty and the pigs - well they don't care.

Audio_girl, I completely agree with you regarding the SP1000. I owned the Integra version for some time and your observation is dead-on-the-money (I can't describe these things myself...but I know when something's missing). Ears, however, is a die-hard SP1000 fanatic. The last time I criticized the SP1000/DPS 10.5's sound (in the AVS forum) he accused me of bragging about how much money I spent on other players for comparison.

I agree that the SP1000 is a great player for its price range and has excellent build quality. But its sound is so far off the DV-50 and the Meridian level (even the Krell and Lexicon level), it is not even funny. I couldn't even imagine comparing it to the Linn, but I have never heard the Linn.

Ears won't give up though. I am glad he is happy with his unit. But he gets very offended by those who do not share his opinion.

i don't see why anybody feels insulted. if they'd had my cd player there and trashed it, i sure wouldn't give a damn. think of it like this - who has to listen to the damn thing - you or them? if you're happy with it, what else matters?

beyond that, do any of you actually feel that there's *ANY* validity to this supposed shootout? do you *know* these people? what reason do we have to trust their ears? (and please, i'm not trying to insult anybody at the shootout - you shouldn't trust my ears any more than i should trust yours) and who honestly believes you can achieve definitive understanding of a player's attributes, even with amazing aural abilities, after hearing but a few tracks played on it?

even the magazine reviewers live with a piece of equipment for a few weeks to a month before they write their review. and even then, how can you make a judgement based on one opinion?

and alex is right - can't stand the "fact," audiogirl? the fact that you can seriously take any of this as "fact" is disturbing.

once again, folks - keep this fun and keep ego out of it. make your own decisions and take everybody else's opinion with a grain of salt. (especially mine - as i stated earlier, i'm notoriously stupid)

the only valid view is your own.

Might I reiterate once again my surprise at the results of the test. I have been using the so called most 'radical step forward in cd redbook sound reply' unit in the shape of the Reimyo DAP 777. This was used with the Marantz DV8400 highly modded transport. Yet Alex's older APL -SACD 1000,was superior by a large margin in every possible way. Now either that unit has been hyped by the press (that includes numerous magazines on line and in paper format), or the APL unit is something very special. That is not to say that the other units in the shootout might not have been special.

How much better could the DV-50 have been with the clock upgrade? if it is considered to be not quite up with the best in terms of its cd redbook replay in standard form.

Please dont shoot me down, as I have not heard the DV50, i am going on what others have said in the press and on this thread.

Something just doesnot smell right. I could be wrong though.

Alex, I'm certainly willing to take you up on that offer. In return, you will receive a fair and concise evaluation between just the two players in a different environment. There are at least two other seasoned audiophiles here that would be willing to post their thoughts after hearing it in my system as well. If you could make the demo with balanced outs, that would be helpful, but not absolutely necessary.

Audio_girl, unless you have heard the "slightly modded DV-50" and the "full blown" Denon 3910 in your own system or under FAIR conditions, your posts do not make much sense.

I can not stand the "fact"? You must be kidding...:-)

Regards,
Alex

Now that that's over..........
Which component will the Chicago Group be evaluating next?

Tom,

…….As far as the Denon 3910, it is a completely redesigned unit that you put your “name” on. The DV-50 is something you modify if you have to. If this is not true, you could have stepped up at any point in this thread to say otherwise.…….

>>> My DV-50 mod is complete re-design similar to the one in the Denon. It incorporates new clock, new DACs, power supply upgrades and new analog stage. Please read this: http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?ddgtl&1099737755&openflup&736&4#736



…. The power cables used were different on each player. There was no isolation or bases used. The DV-50 was listened to single-ended instead of balanced, giving it a disadvantage. Some may consider that significant. If you want me to take the differences that I heard to the typical audiophile level, the facts are that the DV-50 was clearly superior. It excelled in bass definition, inner detail, and timing & pace. Even though the tube units were “warmer”, the DV-50 was more musical. It was equal to the other players in every other category. Are you all happy now? In my opinion, the owners shouldn’t have voted anyway…..

>>> The above justifies unfair comparison. “The tube units were warmer, but the DV-50 was more musical”?.....strange.

I believe we all agreed to agree that day not only because it was difficult to choose a clear winner, but because we were having a great time. This is what the hobby is all about anyway. I really don’t care whether you, Alex, believe it was close or not.

>>> It is not about belief; it is about knowledge and experience.

……I’ve been involved in hundreds of listening sessions and shootouts, many of which provide a clear outcome. FOR WHATEVER REASON this one was more complicated. In actuality, there was a larger improvement when Brian applied Optix and Nordost Eco to one of 711 smilins CDs. This difference was bigger than the differences between players – seriously……

>>> I like that - “For whatever reason”….:-) I can not comment on your DV-50, but I’ve heard Dan’s Sony 9000ES here in my system on two occasions. I am sure that many would like the sound of the Sony, but the difference in musical presentation was HUGE, actually night and day. There is no way in the world you can come up with similar ratings for these machines. If you do, then it is not “for whatever reason”, it is a problem somewhere in the system you have used for the shootout. It might be just a cable, but it is enough to “pinch the hose” in a way that everything sounds similar. I’ve heard this before and I thought you might be aware of it as well. With the experience you claim to have, don’t you think that it is a little strange all of these COMPLETELY DIFFERENT machines to sound similar?

Tom, I did not mean to offend you. I do not blame you either. I heard you have Maggies at home which I can trust as they are linear (uncolored) speakers. I am going to soon complete one demo unit because many are interested to hear it. It would be really great and fair if you are willing to listen to the Denon in YOUR system for 3 days and then come back and tell us the outcome.

Regards,
Alex

AMEN TGUN!
Way to go!
Alex, you just can't stand the fact that a SLIGHTLY modded Esoteric DV-50 by a DIFFERENT modder than YOURSELF, sounded equal or better than YOUR FULL-BLOWN Denon 3910!
EARS, sorry to burst your bubble, but the Onkyo DV-SP1000 isn't even in the same league as the Esoteric DV-50 or Linn Unidisc audiowise!
One of my friends DID own a Onkyo DV-SP1000, and another one owns a DV-50. When we installed the Onkyo in our systems, it wasn't even close! The Onkyo sounded muted, overly warm, distant, and rolled off in the highs in comparison!
Lesson: DO NOT PUT ALL YOUR FAITH IN REVIEWS!
Have a good rest of the day, guys.

The only true shootout is a blind one with different components being switched in and out without the participants knowing what is playing at any particular moment. Once a person knows that which player is playing he is going to be biased. That is why I had suggested a switcher. Maybe next time.

Word!!!

i didn't read alex's post as being sarcastic at all. keep in mind that i have been known to be notoriously stupid, though.

Don't shoot the messenger.. but the October 04 edition of What HiFi compared the Merdian G-98,DV-50 and the Onkyo DV-SP 1000 which sells for 1600.00 in the states.
The Merdian and Onkyo both pased up the DV-50.
The Onkyo was rated 5 and called the"real star"of the three
The merdian was rated 5
The DV-50 was rated 4.5
The Onkyo was said to have an edge for video and the Merdian, an edge for audio.

The Onkyo was compared to these other players as opposed to what they called "lower tier players" like the Denon 3910 and Pioneer 59avi in there comparisons.

DV-50 owners should not be too insulted as the Onkyo was compared as comparable to an 11K Linn Unidisk in a German rag also, much to my suprise.

Daltonlanny,
I am a female audiophile. Anything wrong with that?
Hey Jwells, the last insulting remarks that 711 made toward AVGURU were only a few days ago. Read the posts.
Still waiting on a response from 711???
In all honesty, I think we need to forget about this thread and go on enjoying our hobby and choosing equipment that makes us PERSONALLY happy!
That is my goal. I buy to suit my own personal tastes and enjoyment. To hell with what others may think about my system or individual components!
Have a great one, GUYS!
Angela

Alex, your post is sarcastic and demeaning. I played fair with you by emailing about your thoughts on the two players before going to the shootout. The contents of that email have and will remain confidential as promised. My trip to Chicago was two-fold. First, I went expecting yours to be a clearly superior player. I was fully prepared to buy your unit if the difference was as dramatic as the hype. Secondly, I wanted to hear the Blowtorch preamp and Soundlabs.

I also believe I have been gracious about the outcome. I even went as far as complimenting all of the designers/modifiers for raising the level. This was not an attempt to stroke you, but something I feel sincere about.

What I have changed my mind about is the fact that designers, dealers, and manufacturers can post to this forum. Many dealers refrain from this because of the potential for bias. In the case of someone actually designing and producing the products, there is even MORE potential for bias. After all, you have made a component that to your ears is superior. As far as the Denon 3910, it is a completely redesigned unit that you put your “name” on. The DV-50 is something you modify if you have to. If this is not true, you could have stepped up at any point in this thread to say otherwise. The other problem is that the outcome of reviews can affect you monetarily. These issues clearly are a good reason you should not post.

As far as my background, I have been an audiophile since 1972 until now and a high-end dealer from 1980-1992. I have sold and owned more equipment than most get the opportunity to. The drive to Chicago was nothing as I’ve logged more miles for this hobby than I care to count. My ears are insured by Lloyds of London – just kidding. Vie been involved in hundreds of listening sessions and shootouts, many of which provide a clear outcome.

I’ve heard all the hype before, but this thread and your sincerity had me interested in the APL Denon. The shootout just DIDN’T prove that one player CLEARLY was THE BEST. Yes, we all heard differences and the scores were close because the outcome was close. As I said previously, each owner thought their player was the best, but we all agreed that day that the outcome was closer than we all expected.

I also said previously that I had NO problem with the way the competition was handled. This is because with the space, proximity of outlets, number of cables, and amount of people and equipment in the room, there was no way to get things perfect. If you want to “split hairs” the DV50 was listened to last (which I thought was unfair to the others) giving it a slight edge as being the most recent heard. Each of six music selections were listened to entirely on each player before moving on. Normally, I would prefer a single selection played on each player before moving to the next. The power cables used were different on each player. There was no isolation or bases used. The DV-50 was listened to single-ended instead of balanced, giving it a disadvantage. Some may consider that significant. If you want me to take the differences that I heard to the typical audiophile level, the facts are that the DV-50 was clearly superior. It excelled in bass definition, inner detail, and timing & pace. Even though the tube units were “warmer”, the DV-50 was more musical. It was equal to the other players in every other category. Are you all happy now? In my opinion, the owners shouldn’t have voted anyway.

Everyone is now pushing for more information, score cards, etc. This thread has become bigger than life, and the subject tarnished. I won’t give the scores on each item because it really doesn’t matter. These will just become more ammunition for the thread to continue and continue with no real meaning. Is anyone really using this information to purchase one of these players? I doubt it.

I believe we all agreed to agree that day not only because it was difficult to choose a clear winner, but because we were having a great time. This is what the hobby is all about anyway. I really don’t care whether you, Alex, believe it was close or not.

I’ve been involved in hundreds of listening sessions and shootouts, many of which provide a clear outcome. FOR WHATEVER REASON this one was more complicated. In actuality, there was a larger improvement when Brian applied Optix and Nordost Eco to one of 711 smilins CDs. This difference was bigger than the differences between players – seriously.

I think the Chicago group took the high road on this subject and I wish for this issue to now end.

Tom Roberts

Lets not all forget that some machines can give their best in certain set ups, we do not know for sure the compatibility of the system used in the review for any of the machines. Indeed if the results were close might I boldly suggest that the system may have had some influence here. I feel these comments are warranted, because previous shootouts with apl and modwrights in particular have been decidedly close in terms of overall quality but I got the impression different in their overall presentation.

For me ideally I would have wanted to know which sounded overall the most enjoyable and realistic.

Furthermore, We have to take into account here listener experience and skill in judging hifi equipment during a sitting. As we all know most high end units can sound similar but to the highly trained, experienced and critically astute ears, these can sound like 'huge' differences. I am not trying to have a go at anyone who was at the listening session, I am just throwing this up in the air for people to relect on.

I have started many messages that I was intending to post, but I deleted them.

You are right; slightly modded DV-50 is as good as or better than my Denon. Same applies about any stock, slightly or extensively modified digital player available on the market today. The difference between these is so subtle, so there is actually almost no difference – just a matter of 1 or 2 points. I am sure that if the guy with the Meitner DAC6e and CDSD showed at this “shootout”, he would be really close in scores to all of these completely different sounding players (IMO) as well. Actually, the slightly modded DV-50 might be on the top of it as well.

Regards,

Alex

Daltonlanny,

you're absolutely correct! at this level of performance, it's not often that any player will blow another away.

To the folks who made this comparison possible,

Thanks so much for your efforts!

Categories:
Units: APL 3910 DV-50 ModWright 9000
Soundstage - 4 4 4
Rhythm & Pace 4 5 5
Depth of Image 5 4 4
Bass 5 5 4
Midrange 4 4 5
Treble 4 4 4
Musicality 4 4 5
Dynamics 4 4 4
Bloom 4 4 4
Inner Detail 5 4 4
Vocals 4 4 5
===================================================
47 46 48
===================================================

Some of the numbers are relative in that it would have been more accurate to award .5's to a specific player in certain categories.

In that case, the totals might change a bit, but the order would not. I had a clear preference in my own mind for #1, #2, and #3.

Of all the categories, I had some trouble with "bloom," which I decided to treat more like "palpability." Maybe that is what Bon intended, or maybe not.

Fives were awarded when something jumped out at me as being especially noteworthy (in a good way). So when you see all three players receiving fours, that's my way of noting in some cases that all three performed very well in that category and I could not distinguish a clear leader or laggard.

- Eric

Can the participants break down their scores? Please list the categories and how you scored each contestant on each category. That way each viewer can see how you scored the players on the category they consider important.

Audio_girl, speaking of uncalled for remarks, you might take a look at yours. While I had a _slight_ preference for the modded DV-50 based upon limited listening well off center, that's what it was - slight. I could happily live with any of the three. I would prefer to let the others weigh in with their opinions, as they have more experience with them.

And yes, I agree with Kerry - let's post the list of CDs and cuts played. I don't have the list but know several of you wrote them down.

Brian

I would like to make a Couple comments about what has been
said about my friend AVGURU's system.
First,I have listen to AVGURU's system on many occasions
and each time I have enjoyed myself.
Second, I thought the DV-50 sounded great in his system lots of deatil and tight bass.
Third,I am APPALLED by the name Calling of a certain Individual(you know who you are)!!!!!!!!!
This is not KINDERGARDEN!!!!!!!!!
Fourth, I think an APOLOGY should be given to AVGURU!!!
Last but not Least,Lets all sit back and ENJOY THE MUSIC!!!
Cheers,
ALPHA3

Wow,
After reading these last few posts, I myself, have lost faith in 711 smilin.
He built his up his APL modded Denon DVD-3910 like it could beat almost any player out there, and he threw some pretty insulting remarks at AVGURU and his system in this thread.
I would be EXTREMELY UPSET if such remarks were thrown at me and my system. I buy what I can afford, and if my system pleases me that is all that matters.
This shoot-out just proves what I posted in my last thread on this post. [go back and read it]. There is NO BEST SOUNDING player out there. Its all a matter of personal taste and system synergy.
AVGURU is a very nice guy and gives excellent advice. I have chatted with him via email several times and enjoyed his very detailed responses.
I commend him for starting an excellent thread and trying to keep everyone in line. Great thread, Charles!
I have gathered alot of helpful and informative information from this thread over the last 2 or 3 months.
But, after reading some of the latter remarks and insults, I agree with Audio_girl. I don't blame AVGURU for "washing his hands clean" of this thread. And I have to agree that it did seem to be too APL oriented at times.
Great shoot-out though, Brian! Bravo!
Just proves that there is no BEST player out there!
I think that all the modders out there should be commended for there excellent work and effort. Richard Kern, Dan Wright, Kyle and Doug at RAM, Walter at Underwood, Ric Shultz, Steve Nugent, and all others, should all be respected and considered for their excellent work and for making such vast improvements to stock machines. I feel that ANY of these guys could do mods to players that could make them rival, or surpass, ANY players out there, regardless of price or reputation!
Hey Audio_girl, are you a female or are you a male?
Just curious.

In defense of 711...As far as meeting him for the first time, I found him to be a cool guy. He spoke his mind ,was funny, and brought some great wine that we all enjoyed. I never heard a detrimental thing from him during the entire session. I'm sure his initial comparison between a stock DV-50 and the Denon drove the comments to AVGURU. Although I would never descibe a stock DV-50 as a toy, the difference would make you excited about receiving an APL Denon. This was evident by the shootout. Can't speak for him regarding the argument, I just didn't find him to be mean-spirited.

Bornie, and your integrated is?

Brians missing CD was one of the outstanding recordings there. It's a little hard to find in stores and I had to order mine from Amazon. It is: Nils Lofgren, Acoustic Live. One of the others that made the Soundlabs "sing" was a SACD release on Proprius, Cantate Domino. Some of the selections others are now out of print, so I won't mention them.