Enough noise reduction?

@yage nice!

Good info, @yage

@holmz @erik_squires 

I just received a reply from Diego Estan who was recently hired to measure the equipment under review for the SoundStage Network of web sites. I asked whether or not he used special power supplies for the equipment under test. Here is his reply (edited for typos):

To answer your question, absolutely not. All devices under test, [other] than amplifiers and integrated amplifiers, are directly plugged into the same, standard 120V/15A circuit, as the Audio Precision analyzer. This is a typical circuit in a spare bedroom of my home and is shared with lighting, my home PC, etc. 

 

For amplifiers and integrated amplifiers, these are plugged into a dedicated 120V/20A circuit, and the minimum observed AC line voltages are provided in the report. Nothing else is plugged into this circuit other than the amplifier. There's only one 20A electrical outlet on this circuit, and it's a relatively short run to the electrical panel.  

 

I live in Canada, and electrical code dictates 14ga solid copper for 15A circuits, and 12ga solid copper for 20A circuits. 

 

I will also say that my home is relatively new (2012), and I have pretty stable power.

@bgpoppab check out NRG Custom Cables in Canada. Hand made to order, but won't break the bank. I have the. 1CS feeding my distribution block. It gave a nice little boost to clarity/noise floor (reduction) in my set up. 

holmz,

all I can tell you is when I switched from the round OCC power cords to the rectangular OCC wire power cords everything got much better.

what makes them better is the rectangular shape of The wire greatly reduces the skin effect,

@urbie 

But I thought that skin effect was mostly something affected high frequencies and the power cord is 50 or 60 Hz?
As we approach DC the entire conductor is in action… all the way down to its very core.

another tweak you should look at is the Townshend podiums

^This^ is happening after the electrical signal is launched into a air as an acoustical field… so is a bit outside of the electrical system noise.

holmz,

what makes them better is the rectangular shape of The wire greatly reduces the skin effect, I was using round OCC previously and after trying the rectangular stuff I can tell you it's much better not cheap though but well worth it, another tweak you should look at is the Townshend podiums, best speaker vibration isolation product on the market isolates down to three Hertz much more effective than the isoacoustic Gaia. most significant upgrade I've ever done it was like I upgraded my electronics it was that good.

if you're going to get power cords the best ones to get are the rectangular OCC single crystal wire even better than the round OCC single crystal wire.

What makes them better @urbie ?

if you're going to get power cords the best ones to get are the rectangular OCC single crystal wire even better than the round OCC single crystal wire. Neotech makes some good ones, and just so you know Neotech makes the OCC wire for all the companies that are charging an arm and a leg for it, their own line is reasonably priced and their top line is not cheap but way cheaper than the other guys that are charging double what Neotech charges for theirs.Check out the Amazon which is their OCC silver single Crystal rectangular wire and the Sahara which is their rectangular copper OCC wire.

Just so. @holmz 

Sort of like Jiminy cricket, they whistle when they work? @terry9 

Do it right and install an isolation transformer. That protects your system, improves the sound, and takes power cables out of the equation. I've done the tests and I have three isolation transformers in the utility room, 'cause they tend to hum when they're working hard.

@holmz 

I'm still doubtful a lab power supply is used. It just doesn't make any sense. A lab 'bench' power supply provides DC, not AC. Also, these components are consumer products meant to operate off of standard household power. If you want to measure and test them, wouldn't you want to know the performance given wall power?

No, I don’t think so.
One would want just the noise and distortion from only the unit.

But many would also want to know how the unit operates with dodgy power.

Since we do not know what different cities, countries, and individual houses power looks like, then the easiest is just use pure sine wave power.

@holmz 

I'm still doubtful a lab power supply is used. It just doesn't make any sense. A lab 'bench' power supply provides DC, not AC. Also, these components are consumer products meant to operate off of standard household power. If you want to measure and test them, wouldn't you want to know the performance given wall power?

Anyway, I've done an online search which didn't uncover anything definitive. I sent an email off to Stereophile. I'll post an update if I get a response.

I highly doubt that Stereophile and ASR are using lab power supplies for their measurements.

@yage and you would be wrong.
(Not for amps, but for the front end gear tests… I believe that you are right for amp testing.)

If I did not attract a 2 weekban there I could look it up, but it is mentioned a some of the videos.

This thread had made me realize that a measurement not usually taken or published is power supply noise reduction ratio.

We get the S/N+THD specs, and these assume ideal AC power.  We also should see something like how well AC noise can make it to the audio outputs.  Not an impossible test.

Yeah @erik_squires Probably a test for both for a voltage field, and for a current field would be good.

I guess I would not look at the question in the same way well… I mean I would not look at the component specs. You are asking the right question. Are there better matches. It is mostly a question of which sounds best in your system and that includes your venue, speakers and the sum of all wires and your values.

I would begin by looking at your amp. This is usually the likely to be most sensitive to power cords and least sensitive to “noise reduction”. You want great current capacity. I highly recommend trying a Audio Quest Hurricane. The forums have been abuzz about these. I really struggled with the power cords for my amps for nearly a year… trying standard, really good quality power cords… Cardas, Transparent, WireWorld… etc. Then my dealer brought over an Audio quest Hurricane. Wow, it tipped the balance to neutral from warm with Cardas. Really dropped the noise floor. Finally, the power cord problem solved.

I have a really finely tuned system. The right power cord on the amp was key. I use Transparent power cords on my other components.

I stick with highly reviewed main stream wires. Transparent, Cardas, WireWorld, DHLabs and Nordost. They are highly reviewed with decades of research. I have learned their sound. They know what they are doing. Much of high end audio is about layer after layer of subtitles you may not yet have learned about. Companies with this depth of experience produce stuff typically of great quality and depth.

I recommend you try AudioQuest Hurricane, and Cardas Clear Beyond (for power power amp).

@yage

You will most likely never hear any sound at -120 dBFS unless you’re in an anechoic chamber and even then the noise that your own body generates will probably dominate your auditory sense.

Thank you for that comment. I couldn’t agree more.

@bgpoppab

Curious at what point noise reduction could be considered "good enough".

For me personally; in a super quiet environment, I can hear around -100 dB S/NR, when using headphones. But for me, -80 dB S/NR is actually "good enough". "Good enough" probably also depends on your own personal auditory system, aka hearing. Any ringing in your ears? Also your listening space; while sitting in it, can you hear your refrigerator, air conditioner, forced air furnace, washing machine, dishwasher, neighbors, kids, etc.? If you can, that changes that -120 dB S/NR (down to possibly -70 dB or even higher - higher meaning more noise, as like maybe -60 dB) provided by your audio components. Although when discussing environment noise levels, those numbers are probably better represented in the SPL category.

Have made sure the room/speaker setup and source are dialed in?

Your gear is proper. 

Having those 3 things dialed in detracts from possible unnecessary audiophool expenditure.

We get the S/N+THD specs, and these assume ideal AC power.

I highly doubt that Stereophile and ASR are using lab power supplies for their measurements.

ASR’s SNR measurement of the Ares II puts it at 120 dB using the balanced out, so excellent performance without aftermarket power cords.

You will most likely never hear any sound at -120 dBFS unless you’re in an anechoic chamber and even then the noise that your own body generates will probably dominate your auditory sense.

To give you a more practical demonstration, try this sound test at Audiocheck.net. It plays a voice decreasing at 6 dB intervals starting at full scale level. Adjust your volume control so the first voiceover is at the usual loudness you listen to. Once you can barely hear the voice, you’ve found the lowest threshold of noise you can detect.

This might be a silly question and I’m not looking to start a fight, but what power cords did Denafrips use to make their measurements? Was it the cord they sent with? 
 

I have a Pontus ll and the power cord that came with it never came out of the box.

The answer to your question is NO! If you like what you hear be happy with it and enjoy the music.

"So, the bug has bitten once again and I have been interested in experimenting with something different in power cords. Maybe Zavfino, Cullen, or something of the sort".

If you are like me when the bug bits it's just a matter of time until I end up with a purchase either new or used. Your system looks good to me and replacing power cords could be futile however you never know until you try a replacement. If you can't be happy with what you have I would suggest just purchasing one power cord of your choice and after the break-in period try it on each component and be your own judge.

This thread had made me realize that a measurement not usually taken or published is power supply noise reduction ratio.

We get the S/N+THD specs, and these assume ideal AC power.  We also should see something like how well AC noise can make it to the audio outputs.  Not an impossible test.

Look into add-powr products, worked for me

I don't want to encourage too much power cord obsession, but!

The gear S/N specs are done with ideal lab power, so with noisy AC power you may not get there. Still, anything above 95 dB is truly excellent performance.  I wouldn't even try to compare DACs based on this value.

My concern with power noise has to do with digital sources of noise getting induced into the AC cords, especially from network components.  Ethernet, routers, Wifi, etc. so I don't spend a lot on power cords but when I do they are always shielded.