Has anyone heard the Elrog 300B tubes ? I read an article which mentioned that the Elrog 300B delivers 15% less power than a traditional 300B tubes. Can anyone confirm that it is audible ?
I am choosing between Elrog and Takatsuki 300B tubes. I would prefer the Elrog because it is cheaper and supposedly wonderful but if it really sounds less powerful then I have to rethink.
I am currently using WE 300B (from current production) and like it so far. However, that doesn't mean that I wouldn't like other tubes more (if they are better :)).
Are there any more/new experiences/opinions regarding the Elrog 300B or the Takatsuki 300B tubes?
What would I gain if I switched to one of those two tubes?
It's said to be a "classical" 300B amp. So which of those three tubes would be your choice in this case? :) WE? Elrog? Takatsuki? What to expect in comparison to my current WE 300B?
I just completed reading this thread, thank you all for your contribution not only on the Elrog's but other tubes.Anyone care to comment on the latest 300B chifi tubes available? Psvane, Shuguang and such? they have the Psvane Cossor, Shuguang has the 300B-Z but one labeled 50 years treasures.I'm just curious to hear the opinions.Apparently Elrog is running smooth.Any opinions on good 45's aside of the EML?
Quick update on the break-in, sound and reliability of the ELROG 300B's.
During the 80 hour break-in period, it was a bit of a roller coaster.
Sounded good right from the start, but the high end extension (grain) and base slam definitely improved with time.
As compared to Takatsuki, Psvane WE 1:1 and Gold Lion's, I find that the ELROG's present a "heavier yet delicate" overall presentation. About 30% more weight across the spectrum.
Like the other tubes mentioned, great sound staging and "air" around instruments and performers.
This tube really shines on vocals, string instruments and piano. When the hammer hits a string on the piano for example, you really know it.
After break-in, I made some "upstream" changes to my preamp and DAC tubes to see the effect. The ELROGS are quite unforgiving when they don't like what's coming from other components.
Complimentary upstream inputs need to be carefully selected.
Another way to say this, is "garbage in-garbage out." ELROG will let you know the good, bad and ugly system attributes.
So far I have enjoyed my time with these 300B's. They sound great in my system, and the reliability has not been an issue.
Adamaly, that’s great news to hear, thanks to you and callaway for the encouraging feedback. As good as the EMLs I’m using now are, having another level of improvement beyond that is a wonderful thing.
It’s good to hear that the current production Elrogs may have gotten the QC issues properly identified and addressed. As posted early in this thread I had the initial run of the Elrogs 300b and suffered three tube failure episodes.I am glad others are currently experiencing no failures thus far. Charles
@ianderson I have had new Elrogs, purchased April 2018, in my amplifier running almost daily with no issues. Under new ownership, the QC issues seem to have been ironed out.
Like others my go to has been the bulletproof EML and previous to that I did use the Sofia RP, they sounded great like others have reported one can fail prematurely and leave you with a chalange finding a match.
I see the Elrog’s are still for sale, curiously has anyone revisited the Elrog 300b and has the reliability issues been sorted out?
I've tried many 300bs but not the original/vintage Western Electric (just too expensive to fool with). I did try the reissue Western Electric but it wasn't impressive in my amplifier. As much as I enjoyed the superb Takatsuki I must say that the Elrog surpassed it in my system. The EML XLS and Takatsuki battle tit for tat as both have many virtues. I don't know how much stress your preamplifier places on the 300b compar ed to power amplifier duties as required in my system.
If the reliability issue is truly solved then the Elrog is one of the finest tubes ever produced IMHO.
I have both the Elroy 300b and Tatsuki 300b along with XLS, mid eighties WE 300b, Psvane WE300b 1:1 and Shunyang WE300B, as well as EH300b, Shunyang Treasure, Genelex Gold Lion reissue 300b.
I have bought the Elrog 300b tubes from the new Elrog owner and let’s say after comparing them to the Tatasuki and the WE 300b’s I bought another pair as these are my new standard. I use the tubes in my Manley Neo Classic 300b Preamplifier. They are a modern 300b and not even based on the original WE design at all. Transient response and slam are beautiful and yes they even maintain just the right amount of euphonics across most genres. I can not say the same about the orig WE 300b’s for sure. I have ~500 hours on the Elrog 300b’s. It was hard to best the Tatasuki 300b. Until the Elrogs they were by far my favorite. They did take a while to finally break in. Not so with the Elrogs they were pretty much perfect from the first power up. h and they look amazing very tall and not at all like a standard 300b bottle.
Oh and they were nearly half the price of the Tatasuki's. I love me a "bargain"
My System: Manley Neo Classic 300b Preamplifier, TT’s #1 modded Clearaudio Performance Turntable with Champion Motor and speed control, Panzer Platter, Soundsmith Strain Gauge Cartridge System, TT #2 VPI Signature Soundsmith Hyperion Cart, Manley Steelhead Phono Pre, Mytek Manhattan DAC Revox B77, Manley mono block 120’s and Martin Logan Summit X with ML Descent i Sub, Kimber KCAG interconnects, Kimber 8AG speaker cables with WBT connectors.
The one drawback I could cite for the 300b is that the very upper tier examples are expensive. Takatsuki 1800-2000 USD per pair, Elrog 1500 USD pr. The EML XLS is reasonably priced relatively speaking and especially given its superb performance. Also based on reports of older XLS tubes used heavily over the years, their lifespan approaches 40,000 hours. In normal use that represents "many" years of use. This is a significant factor when initial cost is considered. It is a wonderful tube in my humble opinion. Every time I power up my amplifiers (which is often) I just appreciate the quality of sound presentation (and their contribution) in my room.
Well I have EML 300B XLS in my Ruby amps for several years and the sound is superb. These are more rugged and reliable and you can get more power from them if you design an amp around it. - IMO they are among the best 300B's that can be had at any price and run around $750/pair
Ecx123, thanks for the additional info. I see what you are referring to in EML’s note 4, which states in part:
Replacing 5U4G with 5U4GB may result in higher rectified voltage, so should never be done. Replacing 5U4GB with 5U4G may result in lower rectified voltage, and may result in damage of the 5U4G rectifier.
However, here are vintage datasheets for the 5U4G and the 5U4GB. Note the statement in the first paragraph of the 5U4GB datasheet that:
The 5U4-GB ... may be used as a replacement for either the 5U4-G or 5U4-GA.
Also, while the detailed parameters indicated in the datasheets do suggest that substituting a 5U4GB for a 5U4G will result in higher rectified voltage, the difference does not appear likely to be major.
Finally, my older Sam’s Tube Substitution Handbook lists the 5U4GB as a direct substitute for the 5U4G (while of course not listing the reverse). I have never known its listings to be inaccurate, and I have often found them to be overly conservative (i.e., to err on the side of caution) if anything.
In any event, all of this is of course superseded by the indication from Israel and in the manual that the 5U4GB should be used in the Franks. He should update the website description of the Franks, though, which indicates 5U4G as I mentioned.
In the Coincident manual for the Franks, it specifically says uses 5u4gb and don't use 5u4g. Before reading the manual I did roll some 5u4g tubes in because they looked cooler with their bottle shape. One amp stopped functioning shortly after but luckily it was just a blown fuse. When I inquired with Isreal he referred me to manual and said use 5u4gb only. Was blown fuse the result of the 5u4g?Cant say for sure. Interestingly on EML spec on note 4 it says they are not the same: http://www.emissionlabs.com/datasheets/EML5U4G.htm I guess it is a case of it works until it doesn't.
Very much loving the Coincident Franks and CSL. Actually got the Statement Phono first and loved that, then decided to go all in. Big improvement on CSL and Franks w PSVANE WE replicas. Will be ordering the Elrogs next week to see how much better it can get.
Ecx123 2-25-2017 The Franks use 5U4GB and Isreal says they are different than even 5U4G. I believe he said 5U4GB takes more current.
A 5U4GB can **handle** a somewhat greater output current load than a 5U4G, but their specs are otherwise pretty similar. The website description of the Franks Mk II indicates 5U4G, however. Perhaps the description isn't up to date.
A 5U4GB will just about always be a suitable substitute for a 5U4G. A 5U4G will be substitutable for a 5U4GB in some designs but not in others.
Charles1dad 2-25-2017 To the best of my knowledge the Millard GZ37 is a drop in replacement rectifier tube.
The GZ37 is equivalent to a 5AR4. It will often and perhaps usually be a suitable substitute for a 5U4G, and it will be a suitable substitute for a 5U4GB in some designs but not in others. There was some discussion of the 5AR4 near the bottom of page 9 and near the top of page 10 of this thread. (Those page numbers apply if posts are sorted most recent last).
Thomas Mayer says that the current Elrogs have been substantially improved and is backing it up with a 1 year warranty. I may at some future date revisit this 300b tube given the extended warranty period, I'm in no hurry and am currently really enjoying the EML XLS which seems to be bullet proof with my Frankenstein.
To the best of my knowledge the Millard GZ37 is a drop in replacement rectifier tube. I've used it for nearly 2 years and have not encountered any problems so far. ecx123 I hope you are enjoying the Frankenstein and the CSL pairing as much as I am. Charles
Hi All, Read through all 13 pages with interest and fascination and thanks to all who shared their insights. I have the Franks and CSL that I recently switched up to PSVANE WE replicas. Been running them for two month with about 200 hours on them. They have been spectacular IMHO. A friend told me about the Elrogs and looked them up and was led me to this thread. My question would be did Thomas Mayers recent acquisition of the Elrog works fix the 300B issues. According to his blog he is selling out all current production tubes and have no quality issues except for shipping damage. 2nd, I am wondering with charles1dad, with the all the heartbreaking issues he has had with the Elrogs in his Franks if tried putting back the original spec rectifier tubes. The Franks use 5U4GB and Isreal says they are different than even 5U4G. I believe he said 5U4GB takes more current. Charles mentions he is using nos Mullard GZ37, how compatible/reliable are they? Have other Frank users had similar unfortunate experience as charles with the latest batch of Elrog 300B?
Any of you people in Chicago . I have 4 300b amps and tend to use EML solid and mesh plates . Two amps are transformer coupled. I would Like to hear a pair of elrogs. my phone 708 645 1237 cell 708 446 7576 thanks Rick Berta
I know of 2 systems that run Audio Note with Takatsuki with good results. One has 2 tubes per channel, 4 total, for about two years and had Western Electric prior to Takatsuki. The other system has 2 tubes for over a year. I don't remember AN's models, but can dig up the info if needed. I have both Coincident Frankenstein MK2 and Border Patrol amps, both are great with Takatsuki.
Bill, If you ever consider a back up pair 300bs the XLS is a very good option. George Lenz told me that some older pairs of these tubes are approaching 40,000 hours of use per some of his long term customers. I can believe that, this is a very stout output power tube. Charles,
Hello Bill, It's surly conceivable that your PS Audio 10 could provide a definite positive effect. I gave it my best shot but with the 3rd failure I recognize that enough is enough. Your fate may be different from mine. Good Luck, Charles,
Charles, Sorry to hear about the persistent failure of Elrogs in your Franks. Mine are still doing OK, but I am probably only getting 2-3 listening sessions in a typical month. If the heat doesn't break soon, the listening may increase as the hiking decreases. I do wonder if my use of the PS 10, using115 V and soft start up, will lead to acceptable service with the Elrogs. However, if (when) they fail, I intend to go to the XLS tubes. We have all been quite patient with Elrog, but the premature failure rate has been unacceptable.
A fun tweak- experiment I have been trying since yesterday is putting a Synergistic Research HFT (High Frequency Transducer) on top of the rectifier tube in my 300SET amp. The change in the sound is not subtle and I think for the better. The amp has already been upgraded sonically with placing SR- ECT's (Electronic Circuit Transducers) on the chasis.
nmmusician - first posted this HFT tweak. I think it is a good one to try.
Hi Cal, As you noted I did the amplifier cathode resistor modification and I’m on my 3rd pair of the Elrogs. One tube has recently failed and the other is working fine. My conclusion is that the Elrog 300b despite its superb sound isn’t a good choice for the Coincident Frankenstein MK II. I’d recommend the Takatsuki and EML XLS as better companions. The EML XLS especially is an ultra robust workhorse tube that seems ideally suited for the Frankenstein’s particular demands. This tube is rugged, exceptionally reliable and sounds truly excellent with this amplifier.
In absolute terms the Elrog is a bit better sounding and has a "more" organic character. However the "bulletproof" EML XLS makes beautiful, dynamic and very engaging music without question. This is a top echelon 300b tube in my opinion. In the proper amplifier the Elrog is brilliant but it is seemingly too delicate for long term use in the Frankenstein. This is my conclusion and others may disagree. Charles,
As you may have seen, one of the posters in here, Charles1dad, previously used the Taks as his reference before switching to the Elrogs... in Coincident Franks though, unfortunately for your information gathering.
P.S. Charles, are those Elrogs still hanging in there after the amp mods?
I have Takatsuki, Sophia Princess, EML and Elrog 300B and EML300B XLS. So far, only the EML300B has started failing on me (lower gain on one channel). But I don't run my 300B for long hours either. FWIW
I have been listening to Takatsuki 300b tubes for a couple of years.
The Takatsukis replaced Sophia RPs in my 300b SET; no technical issues with the RPs - the Takatsukis just sounded better. I have not heard Takatsukis in Audio Note amplifiers, and I have not heard the Elrogs in any amplifier. I am, however, surprised at the wait time. I sourced mine from Amtrans in Japan. Once you get them, I will be curious how they compare to the WE Replicas from Psvane.
Does anyone have recent experience with the Takatsukis? I have already had two pairs of the Sophia Royal Princess 300Bs die on me, so I am steering clear of the Elrogs for now.
Specifically, I would love to hear how the Takatsukis perform in any Audio Note amplifier. I have ordered a pair from PriceJapan, but apparently there is a two month wait at the moment. I have sold my low hours pair of PSVane WE Replicas and have my Shuguang Black Treasures up for sale. Both of those will help pay for the Takatsukis : )
So, for now I am back to using the stock tubes. They are good but don't have the texture, detail or colour of the PSVane Replicas. I figured that this is going to make the Takatsukis sound even better! Stepping up from the Replicas wouldn't be nearly as much of an improvement as coming from the stock tubes.
Anyway....just waiting patiently for the Takatsukis.....is that the FedEx truck that I hear? No, just some car passing by : (
Sorry to be digging up an old thread, but this is the most in depth information regarding the Elrog 300B that I can find.
I am interested in trying the Elrogs, however I am curious to know if there is anyone out there who has had the 300B that has not failed? If so, what amp are you running them in and what are the operating parameters driving the tubes?
Unfortunately, one of my ER300B started failing again. This is a revised version that replaced my original pair last August. It keeps cutting out and making noises. I can turn amp off and take tubes out for a while and then it works for a while and quits again. Sometimes it won't even start up so it is definitely bad. I didn't use the tubes much at all after I received the replacement pair last August. So, they have less than 100 hrs.
I have been trying to contact Matthias as he instructed in August but haven't received any reply so far. I hope someone in Elrog can take care of my case. (For the record, I copied email exchange from last year).
I think ER300Bs (with ER845) are the best sounding tubes out there. I really hope that the company can back their products and take care of their customers.
Let me know how I can proceed to get replacement tubes.
Thanks. Byung ---------------------------------------- mk_August 28, 2015 2:30pm Hi Byung-Hyun,I will send You the tubes on Monday. The transfer time is about a week. And please, if You have some trouble with the replacement tubes send me an eMail toklepper@xxxxx.de .... ;-))Best regards, Matthias Report th
Hi Pani, I had a FW J2 amp as my back-up amp. I use Frankenstein Mk.2 300b's as my main amp. The J2 is a very good amp, detailed, very open, fast, great bass, but the Franks are more liquid and sound more natural in tone and timbre. The J2 had a slight grain compared directly the SET amp. Don't get me wrong it is a wonderful amp, but the 300b's push my buttons more!
Quick update, So far so good in regard to the cathode resistor swap in the Coincident Frankenstein. The Elrogs are hanging in there and continue to sound superb. Perhaps this is the answer for long term Elrog tube life, time will tell. Charles,
+1 to charles and raquel. Very well said, esp. raquel's carefully reasoned and extremely well written analysis. Perhaps the best post of the year, IMO.
Hello Raquel, I appreciate your comments and agree with them. I and other contributors to this thread have on several occasions written impressions comparing the premium level of 300b tubes. It is recognized that preferences among this esteemed group of tubes vary exactly for the reasons you cite. Though I expressed a preference for the Elrog, I've made it clear that the Takatsuki and EML XLS are truly excellent in their own right. Given the variables of amplifiers, system configurations and accessories /tweaks, no tube can be declared the absolute best for all listeners.
By the way Raquel I miss your insightful comments from the good old days on this site. Welcome back. Charles, 😊
I very rarely go on Audiogon these days and even less frequently look at Audiogon threads, but this one came up last night in a google search when I was looking for something else and I read it through.
I know that this will not be news to most of you, but it bears repeating that current 300B tube production is artisanal in nature, as is manufacturing of the single-ended tube amps that most people use 300B’s in - with great respect to their manufacturers, many of whom make incredible products, I want to emphasize that these things are not made by companies like Boston Scientific or Siemens in roboticized factories to critical-application tolerances - they are basically made by hand, one tube can sound materially different than a presumably identical tube from the same production run (not to mention tubes from different production runs), and two identical tube amps from the same manufacturer can likewise sound different, particularly if they are point-to-point wired like the very good ones often are. Just as with Mason & Hamlin's, Fazioli’s, etc., no two sound exactly alike.
So that said, and factoring in how different partnering electronics, home electrical supplies, listening rooms, set-up skills and the auditory capacities of listeners can affect perceived sound, I am wary when someone writes in a thread that one really fine tube is better than another really fine tube. I don’t believe that anyone has done that here and I think it is a useful exercise for owners of a common tube amp (the Coincident Frankenstein here) to report their experiences, but I think it is correct to say that Takatsuki, Elrog, Emission Labs and EAT, and even the high-end Shuguang and TJ / Full Music / Sophias, are all really fine sounding tubes and can all outshine each other in a synergistic amp.
In addition, because some amps run output tubes a lot harder than others, build quality can be a factor equally as important as sound quality. For example, the VAC Renaissance push-pull amps run 300B’s hard, and many feel that best tube life is achieved with VAC’s rebranded Shuguang 300B’s, which have been very carefully culled to withstand the stresses that tubes in that circuit are going to see - they can last many thousands of hours. PS - Any 300B used in Renaissance amps MUST be standard Western Electric-spec 300B’s (BLX tubes draw too much filament current and will cause amp failure, and mesh plates are too delicate and generally fail). So, and I think this is borne out by user reports in this thread, not all 300B’s are going to provide acceptable life in all amps.
I would query the manufacturer of your amp for tube suggestions (i.e., "What sounds good and what’s going to hold up?") as well as a reliable tube vendor (there aren’t many, alas) who demonstrates experience with your amp if you know one, buy three good candidates, put at least 200-300 hours on each tube to ensure they are properly burned in, choose what sounds best to you, and keep as spares the runners up. After another five hundred hours or so, pull them out and do the exercise again - equipment takes time and requires perspective to properly evaluate. Then retain as spares and/or sell the runners up.
Make no mistake, tube selection is crucial - they are the circuit in the equipment they serve and are generally far more important to sound quality than whether you own the "Mark III" or "Mark IV" version of your amp. Investigate what experts (the manufacturer, tube vendors) recommend, spend the money and time to audition good candidates, and never forget that your tubes and your amps are just like your friends and family members - they all have their own personalities, strengths and weaknesses, which for better and for worse, you are just going to have to discover.
Hi Charles, Thanks for the comments on the SR Black fuses.I will try then on my Franks soon . Do you use them on the CSL as well? Hi calloway, Thanks for your feedback about the WE replicas, good to hear that you feel they are that good. I will try to see if I can try a set . regards, David
I use a Quad set Takatsuki 300Bs and can honestly say they are as good as it gets--I would've gone for the Elrogs ( I replaced stock EH's also excellent tubes) but at the time the reliability of the new E's was troubling
However I see that issue seems to be rectified and the brand getting good kudos from current owners. I'd suggest Audition both for any decision.
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