Markus1299,
Are you using your P10 on all of your components, including the amplifiers? |
I've done a study on 300B tubes and continue too. Here's my 2 cents. I have 2 sources I totally trust. One has compared Elrogs, PSVANE T2, old Western Electric (one of the best production runs), and Takatsuki.
Elrog performed poorly there, to the degree that he thought they were not a good match to that particular amp. Indeed, Elrog is not a WE type tube, many say these and many other tubes that are called 300Bs shouldn't be called 300B's and a different name should be given with substitution advice and warning. I don't know what happened, since TJ and Sophia are also not your regular WE but they work fine and perform fine in that amp. Expectations from Elrogs were high, the result surprising and worrying.
The other source owns old WE's, new WE's (now sold, I bought them :), Elrog, and older white base Takatsuki. He prefers the old WE's and Takatsuki.
I do not own Elrog and I haven't heard it yet. I do own Takatsuki. I did try Sophia RP, TJ Special Edition and new WE's (several of them) among other 300Bs. My strong preference is Takatsuki.
My learning from the above: 1. Elrogs might not be universally good in all SETs or it could have been a one off faulty tube or mismatch 2. Some might prefer Takatsuki.
3. I am not putting my own money on Elrogs just yet, I need much more evidence.
FY, I have 4 SETs at the moment. Coincident Frankenstein MK2, Border Patrol SE 300B, Border Patrol S20 EXD, Coincident Dynamo SE34 just to try and do some tube rolling to see their potential.
Another interesting tube is TJ Full Music CNe recently launched. I only know one source who heard it, compared to PSVANE T2 and Takatsuki and TJ SE. |
to add... Elrogs seem to work great with Franks which is excellent news. |
Hi Charles1dad,
With my HUGE respect to you, this is not what I wrote.
I reported a case where with a particular SET amp Elrog was not just unsatisfactory. It was most probably not working properly as the sound was much inferior. It was not a matter of preference. The testers have huge experience both listening and building amps, I have not a slightest doubt in their assessment (there were 2 people, I have feedback from one).
In the second case I reported, it was indeed a matter of preference and not towards Elrog. And the man owns all these tubes, it's not a quick AB test. The SET in this case is also not Frankenstein MK2s. They system is very high grade, higher then mine and mine isn't a toy either.
The Elrog is not a drop in replacement for any 300B tube. What's called 300B tubes these days is a mix of different designs and even specs and this does cause problems in some amps. Several amp designers discuss or mention this. I could drop names of particular tubes here but I won't :)
Old WE's are not the same as new WE's and various batches may have different qualities too. I only heard new WE's, never the old ones but did several times, one pair is still with me.
What's very important is that Elrogs do work wonders in Frankensteins and this is key and very valuable info.
I am going to be more careful with other amps.
I am extremely grateful to you for making me replace 101D's in my Coincident Line Stage with PSvane WE Replica. I also replaced the fuse with AH. I totally confirm your findings there. I also paid attention to Star Sound and Tripoint type of products and am trying both with good results. |
I don't mean sonically. Although mismatch can lead to severe sonic compromise or high hum level with sensitive speakers or something else.
Elrog is NOT a drop in replacement. Its specs are NOT compliant with WE's specs, like its plate resistance as one example. What's more important is that there is a proven case which I reported where Elrogs did not work, precisely due the fact that they are not drop-in replacement. For example, they might NOT work with 2 of my 3 300B amplifiers with my sensitive speakers.
Now I know they will work in Frankenstein MK2 but this is 33% success rate in my case. For some people with one amplifier it'll be 100%, for some 0%. Takatsuki to my knowledge has had no such problems so far. They might, but so far I don't know of any such cases.
That's the difference between them.
Online research will lead anyone interested to datasheets of Elrog, original WE's, Takatsuki. Also, there are discussions regarding how some 300B tubes should not be even called 300B tubes. This is all theoretical until it actually does cause problems. All I did is reported a case where it did in practice. And it's very relevant to me and owners of 300B amps.
I can't say yet what it is that causes this amp-tube mismatch. I know of other so called 300B tubes that occasionally have mismatch problems so this is not unique. What I do know now is that Elrog is among them. This is the reason I interfered in this thread. It could be helpful for some. |
Brownsfan, thank you and I agree with your points and hats off to people behind Elrog and Takatsuki. Charles1dad's and your experience with Elrogs in Franks is very good news for owners of Franks, me included. They are cheaper than Takatsuki after all!
But I am making 2 points that I think are also very important/valuable in this thread and I will not allow them to be mellowed down :))
1. Elrog is not a 100% drop in replacement and is not suitable for any 300B amp. With more statistics we will know where it's working.
You are totally right. I will even add that people with means actually owe it to the bravery and risk of the people behind new Elrog to buy, try and compare to other great tubes :) But try to hear Takatsuki too if you can. It's not difficult to beat PSVANE T2 these days except it's totally amazing for its price and I often recommend it.
2. The fact that Elrogs are better in Franks (yes, a matter of sonic preference but I trust Charles' experience) does not guarantee they will be preferred in other amps over top tubes.
This is not a mere speculation. I mentioned much less successful listening experiences where other tubes were preferred to Elrog (old WE's and Takatsuki). So at this point my only take out is that they work exceptionally well in Franks, and that they are better in Franks than Takatsuki (yes, preferences may differ, let's say there is a big chance they'll be preferred), and they are cheaper!
For other amps - not at all that clear, and for some ampd - not recommended. I will keep an eye where it works and where it doesn't. It would be great to sometime do a list. If I hear anything like this about Taks, I'll report too.
I posted some photos of my system, there are some tubes there. When I test, I also try to test in several systems and with several pairs of ears to make sure it's not a one off. |
I have Lampizator Big 7 as well. But I use 45s, the best of them, Cunningham, and then the best of that.
Please keep us posted how it develops. Have you tried any other tubes on Lampi Big 7, including any other 300Bs?
Just as Charles1dad I upgraded to PSvane 101D WE Replica on the same line stage. Worth the extra 300 over the stock tubes for sure. |
Takatsuki needs 150 hours burn in according to web knowledge. Up until 60-70 hours Takatsuki may sound nothing special compared to burned in great tubes, some say 100 hours.
BTW, what's recommended burn in for Elrog? |
Markus1299,
Are you using your P10 on all of your components, including the amplifiers? |
The Elrog has a different internal impedance, gain and filament type to a conventional 300B. Internal impedance (resistance) is approx 900R vs 700R, gain is higher than a standard 300B and the filament is thoriated tungsten type vs oxide type. It will give less power than a standard 300B under the same conditions.
Elrog recommends to use the tube into higher impedance output transformer loads than a conventional 300B because of the higher internal impedance.
It can have a problem in an amplifier that was designed around 300B specs as it did in the case I mentioned. Problem = mismatch and sound compromise.
Voicing/sound of the tube is different from "standard" 300B but this could be either good or bad, users can decide for themselves.
In absence of proof that it works in a particular amp, like with Franks as we have here, or when one has no possibility to just get a bunch of tubes and hear them in his own amp, it could be wise to contact the amp designer for advise. More experiences similar to the one with Franks will tell the story eventually. |
Snopro, how many hours did you have on both pair of tubes when you compared them?
The reason I am asking is that it's crucial.
Takatsuki requires 150 hours of burn in. 100 hours minimum from my own experience with many pairs of these tubes in various systems. Until 100 hours they could be a hit or miss. When they are fresh they can even sound like 200 dollar tubes, nothing special. I'd say 150 hours is a must for any critical listening or comparison to other tubes.
I've asked about Elrog's burn time previously but I don't have an answer at the moment. Several people reported they sound good right from the start. But from all my experience with various 300B tubes all of them require burn in. PSVANE T2 requires 300 hours before critical listening or comparison to other tubes, Takatsuki - 150 hours. Elrogs probably some time as well. TJ Full Music SE may sound nothing special until 60-70 hours but full break in is longer. I don't believe Elrog has 0 hours to be broken in. I would give it 150 hours to be fair.
Also, amps that have manual bias, like one of my amps, should be biased for any new tube installed otherwise sound comparison doesn't make sense.
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Dracule1, please keep us updated on Elrog in Lampizator Golden Gate! Did you have a junior model Lampi before?
My Lampi came with EML 45 Mesh.
I might try PSVANE WE 101D replica on it and Takatsuki but this will not be any time soon, need extensive burn in on them all to be meaningful.
I am also with you on passive preamps :) I used to have several, from resistor based attenuators which depended too much on impedance matching and cables to many transformer based volume controls which were so much better in sound and so much easier in matching. I now use either Coincident Line Stage with transformer volume control or Kondo active pre but I still have a current model of Django TVC with Silk Audio transformers. |
I know of 2 systems that run Audio Note with Takatsuki with good results. One has 2 tubes per channel, 4 total, for about two years and had Western Electric prior to Takatsuki. The other system has 2 tubes for over a year. I don't remember AN's models, but can dig up the info if needed. I have both Coincident Frankenstein MK2 and Border Patrol amps, both are great with Takatsuki.
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