I recently acquired the Elrog 300Bs. I detect no decrease in dynamics, playback volume, or anything else that may be related to decreased power. My previous tubes were Psvane T1 (black bottles). My speakers are 94dB efficient.
I have not heard the Taks, so I can't compare the 2. |
Anyone know what a 300B Western electric went for back in 1962? Take a step back and look at the big picture. We are celebrating a price decrease from 2K to 1.2 K for a pair of vacuum tubes. No wonder our wives think we are crazy. But oh, the midrange. Ach, what does she know of midrange? Unless there are reliability issues, I will never buy another 300B. I love the Elrogs. Still, I'd love to have a pair of Taks for a comparison. Yep, we are all stark raving mad. But, oh, that midrange is blissful. Bottom octaves are really there. Good sounding tubes! |
Pani, Much better! Everything, resolution, definition, imaging, low frequency response, you name it. Just a much better tube. I really like the Elrogs. |
Charles, agree completely. I didn't think twice about buying the Elrogs. I have no doubt, I will never regret the decision.
It is just that I am by nature very frugal on things non audio. I spent a total of $400 on my first 4 cars. My current rig costs substantially more than my first house. I dare say 99% of the population would say that is just crazy. We all do an occasional reality check as an exercise in self regulation.
Good music, in my opinion, is the pinnacle of human achievement. So few people share what everyone on this forum values so highly. J.S. Bach walked away from his job for 6 months and walked 200 miles to hear Buxtehude. He would fit right in here, I think. |
Charles, I'm very happy with what I hear, but again, I have no experience with the top tier tubes. My frame of reference is Psvane T's and TII's. You are the guy who will shortly be in a position to rank all of the top notch tubes, at least as they perform in the Franks. |
Calloway, There is certainly such a thing as synergy (or lack thereof) between particular tubes and pieces. But just as significant is the fact that certain tubes will play to a particular persons values better than others. If it were me, I'd wait to see what Charles thinks of his Elrog 300Bs. He has had all the top tubes in his Franks, and he also has a top tier set of ears.
I will be fascinated by Charles' early read on the Elrogs vs EMLs, Taks, Sophias, and others he has had. |
Teretubozo, Thanks for the comparison. Not off topic at all. |
Charles, are we there yet, are we there yet? LOL, you are in a unique position. Almost like the first man to see the dark side of the moon. Having taken the plunge on the Elrogs, and having loved them without reservation since day one, I am as you know ever so curious what you think, especially with respect to the EMLs and Taks. The good think is, I have a set of tubes I could live with forever. |
There we have it folks, now we have seen the dark side of the moon. Charles, having had the Elrogs in my Franks for a while, I certainly agree with your assessment. Based on my experience, I would have been somewhat surprised had you come to any other conclusion. Good listening! |
Charles, due to my current situation I'm only getting about 5 hours a week on the Elrogs. I do think they are improving, but its hard to say for sure with so few hours and extended times between sessions. They are so good I'm not inclined to leave the system on while I can't listen critically just to speed up burn in.
I also have no issues with the decreased output. For other owners of Franks, this shouldn't be an issue.
As you know, I tend to be fairly restrained in my assessment of new tubes, so as not to influence people with hyperbole, personal preference, or system dependent synergy. I expect you noticed my departure from form with this tube. These tubes are so very good I just couldn't restrain myself. You have done a nice job on capturing the notable attributes. With respect to my Psvane Ts, the Elrogs are an improvement in every respect. |
To my ears, the Elrogs are just outstanding in the Coincident Franks. They are much better in essentially every respect as compared to the Psvane Ts. Previously, I had found no preference in comparing the Ts to the TIIs, and found both of them superior to the Shuguangs. I have not had the pleasure of auditioning the EMLs or Taks.
My advice to other Frankenstein owners would be to give the Elrogs a try. I seriously doubt you will find anything better based on my experience and that of Charles. For owners of other amps, your mileage may vary. The good news is that we have some wonderful tubes to match to our amps and individual tastes. |
Ddriveman, one of the goals for the Elrog 300b was to exceed the performance of the old WE300Bs. The tube designer worked a long time on this tube until he felt like he had achieved his goal. I have not had the pleasure of auditioning the WEs, but I find the Elrogs to be superb in the Frankenstein amps. Given the price differential between the two, I'm happy to remain in my ignorance is bliss spot. |
Charles, well this is a conundrum and no mistake! As you know, my point of comparison for the Elrog 300B was the Psvane T1 black glass 300B, which I also suspect may be Israel's reference tube. As you also know, I issued a rapid and emphatic endorsement of the Elrogs, with the caveat that I had no experience with the Taks, EMLs, WEs, and Sophias. One more thing you have no doubt noticed, is that sort of rapid and enthusiastic endorsement is uncharacteristic for me. I was much more reserved in issuing an endorsement of the Psvane WE 101 replicas vs the Psvane HiFis, for instance.
I have to think this is a case of some variability from tube pair to tube pair. Clearly, you and I are on the same page, but I think it is just as clear that we share Israel's values, since we both have all Coincident systems. I can't make any other sense out of this. I don't think I'm inclined to second guess Israel's ears, but I also respectfully disagree. The Elroy's are a substantial improvement, and are a great value based on cost/performance considerations.
I took no little comfort in having you validate my assessment of the Elrogs. You know what? I'm going to stay in my happy place. Barring a dependability issue with the Elrogs, I have NO desire to experiment with other 300Bs. |
JWM, Charles indicates that Israel endorses the WE101Ds for the CSL, and they are $600 a pair. Not sure this is Israel's relentless (and that is a good thing for his customers) efforts to excel with respect to the value proposition. I suspect he heard a pair of Elrogs that weren't up to the standards some of us have enjoyed. |
Charles, what you suggest is certainly possible. I think you and I so far are in complete sync with respect to what we hear, and that holds despite the disparity in our musical tastes.
I just can't fathom how the guy who designed the equipment I admire so much, were he sitting in my room doing an A/B with the Elrogs and Psvane Ts, would suggest the difference was subtle. It is not close to subtle, and anyone who says it is needs to have an ear irrigation, my respect for Mr. Blume notwistanding. Something seems amiss to me.
However, if anyone purchases a pair of Elrogs and is not satisfied, I'll be willing to trade them straight up for my moth balled Psvane Ts. Just let me know. |
Charles, Sorry to hear about the tubes. Mine are still doing OK, but I have had very little listening time for the last month. Still trying to sell the old house and so forth. Too much traveling, too much mowing, not enough music and not enough hiking. Although I did a killer last week.
If my Elrogs fail, I'm with you on the EMLs. Based on what I have read, they look like a great value proposition. I wasn't unhappy with my Psvane T black bottles, but they don't have the resolution of the Elrogs. Not even close. |
All, my AC measures 122.1 V. I got the same number last week as I did last November, so I am a little concerned regarding tube longevity in my Frankensteins. I did check to verify I have no red dots on the cathodes. My power company will not address the issue unless the voltage is outside of 120 V plus or minus 5%.
I guess there is a silver lining to not having much listening time for the last couple months. Until if figure something out, I can reinsert my Psvane T's so that the Elrogs aren't compromised.
I have followed the thread since its inception, and am most grateful to all those doing the heavy lifting on sorting through this. However, I am uncomfortable allowing the 122. 1 V situation to stand "unrectified." Were I to utilize a variac, I would probably require two due to my AC wiring configuration. Any recommendations on a relatively inexpensive variac? How about using one of the PS audio power plants with the Franks, which would require some limited room rewiring? |
Thanks Al! I'm going to leave this discussion to you guys who actually know something. I will allow you and George to dialogue until a meeting of the informed minds occurs, at which point, I will act accordingly. I just don't want to start burning through 300Bs.
Once again, you are a priceless AG resource Al! |
Al,
I had exactly the same concern regarding variacs. I spent $1K having dedicated lines run to the room, and who knows how much on PCs. Now I'm supposed to run everything through a cheap variac? I'm also concerned about limiting current. Don't really want to throttle down the juice! On the other hand, one of the PS audio regenerators used might be a reasonable investment. I just know that not everyone likes these, especially for power amps. So even that is an expensive experimental question. I much prefer the do nothing option, but I won't be happy if I am buying new 300Bs 6 times a year.
With respect to my nice words, my parents raised me right. Sometimes the children need to remain silent while the adults converse. Its been too long since my college physics course. Electrons are important to organic chemists too, but we are interested in pushing them from one nucleus to another, not pushing them through a bunch of wires and circuits. |
Joe, thanks for clarifying. It could be a complete coincidence, but I had two different electricians read 122.1 V six months apart. I should probably begin taking my own readings at various times of the day to get a better feel for the range.
Markus, thanks for your comment. I will give this some more thought. Snopro, i've heard the same things several times about Purepower. I don't patronize businesses that don't support their products, no matter how good they may be. |
Mathaias, my Elrog 300B tubes are still functioning properly, but have only about one month of warranty left. Will Elrog accept a return on my tubes and send me a pair suitable for my Coincident Frankenstein amps? |
MK, Matthais- One of my Elrog 300Bs died today. I am a few weeks out of warranty. What say you? |
Charles, one of my tubes died at 6 months and 2 days. I hope I have the kind of customer service you received. |
Tmmvinyl, I certainly agree that one should get more than 6 mo out of a new set of tubes, especially at these prices. In fact, the longevity (or lack thereof) is worse than it appears, because for at least 2 of the 6 months I had very little listening time. Its not likely these tubes had 250 hours on them. Preliminarily, I don't think the amp was damaged. I replaced the tube with my spare Psvane T, and the amp seemed to be ok.
Elrog addressed the issue for Charles, providing him with tubes suitable for the Frankensteins. I expect the same customer service, or I am not going to be pleased.
The tubes deliver superb sonics, but I'm not spending 2K a year for tubes. I asked Matthais in this forum on 7/7/15 if, since Elrog knew there was a problem with their tubes in the Frankensteins, they would allow me to return the tubes for ones that were a suitable match for the amps. He chose not to respond to my question. Too bad.
I guess we will have to see what Elrog intends to do. Matthais, any comments? |
Charles, I initiated contact with the dealer (and alerted them to this thread) back when your tube failed and your dialogue with Matthais was initiated. I contacted the vendor immediately after my tube failed and I received a response within about 5 minutes. I am confident they will stand behind me on their end. However, I do want to ensure that I receive replacements that are suitable for the Frankenstein amps.
As I have said previously, the audiophile community needs to be supportive of companies like Elrog who are taking risks trying to enable manufacture of tubes that meet or exceed the standards of the vacuum state glory days. That support involves some risk on our part, too. But In all fairness to the AG community, I think folks who might be potential customers need to be aware of the Elrog failure rate and observe Elrog's response to the problem. Premature tube failure is bad enough, but Tmm's experience with substantial damage to his Dragons is another. If my amp had (or is) damaged, or if Elrog fails to provide a suitable replacement, you can be sure I will not be pleased. |
Tmm, Is the 2nd fuse internal? Externally, there is only one fuse visible, the standard mains fuse. |
Tmm, Thanks. As I stated earler, once the tube failed I replaced it with one of my stand by Psvanes, and the amp appeared to function normally.
Gsm, I am patiently waiting for a response from Matthais or another representative from Elrog in this forum.
When I originally ordered the tubes, I told the vendor the tubes were to be used in a Coincident Frankenstein application, and when Charles' tube failed, I alerted both my dealer and Matthais of my concern, so I did everything possible on my part. As I feared (see my post of 7/7/15 above), the tube failed at 2 days post warranty. |
Matthias, Thanks so much for your response! I am delighted to hear this. I have alerted my vendor to your response and will pursue replacement through them.
These are just wonderful sounding tubes, and we all really want to see you work out the bugs. |
Bhchung, I also purchased my tubes through Trueaudiophile, and am awaiting instructions about the return process. I would of course prefer to work through the vendor, but if that is not possible I am willing to deal directly with Elrog. Matthais, how should I proceed? |
Matthais, I am having difficulty locating you using the member search function. If you could PM me, I should be able to respond to your message. By the way, my serial numbers are 9443 and 9477. |
Matthias, Thanks for the PM. I responded with the information you requested. |
Charles,
I received my replacements about a week ago and have listened to them sparingly while awaiting delivery of the PS-10 so I can limit the voltage going to the amps. That said, the replacement tubes most certainly sound better than the originals as they sounded prior to failure.
When I replaced the failed elrogs with my Psvane T black bottles, I was surprised to find that the Psvanes were almost indistinguishable from the Elrogs. This was in sharp contrast to my initial reaction to the Elrogs, which was that they were head and shoulders above the Psvanes. The inescapable conclusion is that the Elrogs really degraded with use prior to failure. Prior to failure, I knew something was wrong. The system had lost its magic, and I had no idea what was wrong.
Anyone else experience anything similar?
Apart from keeping the voltage down to 117, anyone got any more tips on the care and feeding of the Elrogs? |
I bought my Elrogs from True Audiophile. They distinguished themselves with excellent responsiveness and customer focus. I also heard the horror stories in their attempts at taking care of their customers who experienced tube failures. I can say they did everything they could to help me. Indeed they did all I could expect of them and more. It would seem the relationship between TA and Elrog ended on rather strained terms. It will be up to Elrog to meet market expectations with respect to both sound quality and product longevity vs. other premium 300B offerings. By all accounts, both the EML and Taks are not far behind the Elrogs.
I had a pair of Elrogs fail, and they supplied a replacement pair promptly. That is about all I could ask of Elrog. If this pair fails, I am quite sure I will move on,probably to the EMLs. On the other hand, I have no reservations about dealing with TA again. They proved themselves to be a truly customer focused vendor, in my estimation.
The Elrog tubes are very good, and we all want them to get the issues rectified. But at the end of the day, most of us won't be investing in tubes that only last a few months. And, Elrog also should nurture distributors of the caliber of True Audiophile. TA showed themselves to me to be a bunch of good eggs, in my opinion. |
Dracule, keep us posted on your experience. |
Dracule, my thoughts are similar to those of Charles, which is not surprising given that we are talking about the same tube in the same amp. What I would add is that the break in was very subtle. At most, break in gave another 5% of what you had straight out of the box. May your tubes live long and prosper. |
JWM, Your comments remind me of the episode where Spock's father was suffering the Vulcan equivalent of Alzheimer's. He began to cry during performance of a string quartet. I have teared up a few times during a live concert, but me system, good as it may be, has never moved me to tears. However, having moved away from Indy, where live music is good and plentiful, to Tennessee, where the opportunities are somewhat sparse, has made my investment in a good system quite logical. |
Dracule, This is odd. Your findings are so different from Wyan, who also had the opportunity to evaluate both the Elrogs and the Psvane 101D WE replicas. He had a strong preference for the Elrogs in his Lampi. I know the Psvanes from using them in my Coincident CSL, and they are very good tubes. Highly resolving with excellent tonality. It is possible you just like their sound better, or they do match your system better. I will say this, when my first set of Elrogs began to go bad, their sound was nothing special to say the least. I can't rule out that you have a couple tubes that are not up to snuff. |
Dracule and Al Here we go again! I pasted in below a comment from page 6 of this thread from Matthias regarding AC voltage and Elrog life. Now, I am hearing that there is another issue, i.e. filament current. The 5U4, 5U4GB, CV387 tubes recommended for the Frankensteins, in addition to my beloved VU-71s, all have a filament current of 3A. The communication from Matthias below indicates that what is required is selecting Elrogs that are appropriate for the operating requirements of a given amp. I have such a pair. In addition, I am regulating the incoming voltage at 115 V using a PS audio P10. I have detected no erosion of sound quality vs regulating at 120 V. I assumed that given all of this, I should be in good shape with my Elrogs. Comments?
07-07-15: Mk_
Hello,
Thanks to snopro for his efforts on this topic...I received the results a day earlier ;-)
By my oppinion a variac is not needed. As can be seen all the measured tubes are having a little bit different operating conditions. All they are 300B fitting the WE300B datasheet (more or less) wthin the tolerances...The Takasuki's running a little "hotter" and the Psvanes a little "cooler". This is the effect of the deviations of real tube data...(against the design center values/plate curves in datasheet)
So the task is very simple. We have to select the "right" pairs of ER300B fitting to the operating conditions of the Franks (or any other amp whose conditions are known) in all cases(+10% or -10% main voltage) with a small safty margin.
A smart dealer like Gorge should be able to affairs which.
No variac is needed nor any changes in the amp...We only need to know the type of amplifier, so we can deliver the fitting tubes. (This way will improve the sound quality too.)
Regards, Matthias
Mk_ (Answers | This Thread) |
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Sorry Al, That was a CV378. It is a British Military 5U4. Thanks for the info and the assurance on my rectifiers. Someday, I'm going to have to go a little deeper than Ohms law. As for your response to Dracule, it is a little like trying to read German. I understand about half of what you wrote. |
Dmarkov, I think you do us all a service by issuing a word of caution. Not everyone has the luxury of running expensive experiments. For those who are not in a position to roll the dice on a pair of 1K tubes, it may be well to carefully consider your words. For those that are in such a position, I say go for it.
Optimizing anything related to top tier audio is far from simple. If it were simple, we would all be doing the same thing. Consideration of the physics is alway a great place to start. But it is just a start.
I rolled the dice on the Elrogs pairing with my Frankensteins. It was a risk for sure, given Charles previous experience with, and praise for, the Franks driven by both the Taks and the EMLs. Had the experiment not gone well, I would have kicked myself for not going the safe route, which would have been acting on Charles previous experience and just ordering a pair of Taks. As it turned out, I was intrigued by the novel approach of Elrog, acted on that interest, and was pretty much blown away with the Elrogs right out of the box. I have been far more effusive than is normal in my recommendation of the Elrog 300Bs. For reference, see my caution regarding the Psvane 101D replicas vs the Psvane HiFi series.
Charles had the good fortune to audition a pair of Elrog 845s in a friends system, and based on that, he rolled the dice on the Elrog 300Bs as well.
If you have followed Rebbi's threads regarding driving his Ref 3A deCapos with a low power SET, you have seen caution issued by one of this forums most technically astute contributors, Almarg, with this pairing. After Rebbi's "satisfaction" with said pairing, he provided another astute set of observations that provided some basis in physics for why this pairing may indeed work.
As we used to say back in the chemistry lab, sometimes you just have to stop talking and run the d@Mn experiment.
There is another aspect that impacts all of us. The big gambler was the innovator who took a huge risk both in terms of money buy also in terms of the opportunity cost, i.e. the folks at Elrog. No one is going to take the risk of underwriting the cost of R&D, not to mention product launch, if we as consumers become overly risk adverse and won't try their products. We have to take some risk as well. The NOS well is running dry. The people with actual experience from the golden age of the 50's and 60's won't be with us much longer. It behoves us all to seize the moment.
I say folks try the tubes. If you don't like them, sell them. |
Charles, very sorry to hear that your replacements did not work out. Mine are still OK, but I am getting very little listening time in these days. Less now than when I was working. I suspect that you have drawn the right conclusion. In the event my replacement tubes fail prematurely, I will probably also go the EML route. |
Charles, I am encouraged by the advice rendered by your very trusted source. Perhaps my PS 10, which provides a reduced start up current for the Franks, coupled with the ability to regulate the voltage at 115, will do the trick for me. As I said, I am getting very little listening time in these days due to my hiking. The upside is that I lost 6 lbs of belly fat last week. I really hope at the end of all of this that we find a solution permitting reliable service from the elrogs. Its going to be hard taking a step back, if it comes to that. |
Charles, make that 7 pounds! We are finally getting settled in enough that I can really pursue the hiking for all it is worth. The hiking has been wonderful, and my wife has gotten back into it like in the old days. The endorphin rush, the beautiful views, the company of my beloved, and the track of Bach's St. Matthew Passion running in my head eight hours a day is hard to beat. By the time I get home, I do well to make it through dinner before passing out. I have been hiking so much that those days when I don't are utterly consumed with volunteer work, yard maintenance (yes, I mowed my grass again 2 days ago dressed in shorts and a T) etc. Perhaps there will come some icy weather, which is pretty much what it takes to keep me off the trails.
I have a stack of CD's sitting on my desk that I haven't had time to listen to yet. While there have been a few surprises associated with the move, this decision has worked out even better than I had hoped in most respects. |
Charles, I did get your email and responded. Did you not receive it? Things are going reasonably well here, but I am doing everything I can to get lost in the hills. Yesterday's hike was 14.4 miles with 3700 ft elevation gain. Four hikes altogether in the last week. Paradise. Not getting much listening time in. 2-3 hours a week at best. I've been following the fuse discussion, and want to hear your thoughts on black vs red, especially in the CSL. I still have a stock fuse in mine, so this could be a big step forward. Keep me posted and let me know if I need to resend the PM. |
Charles, I resent my reply to your PM. The physical conditioning is coming along, but I'm still not where I want to be. If I can continue hitting it hard, another couple months and I should be there.
I'm following the fuse thread. I will probably order a black for the CSL in a week or so. |
Charles, It looks like the fuse in my CSL is a T7AL, which is a 7A slow blow. That seems like a lot of current for a preamp. Is that what you ordered? |
Charles, Israel says the CSL takes a 1A slo. |
Charles, exactly. Those fuses are becoming frustratingly difficult for my old eyes to read. I could not fathom why a pre would take a 7A. Also, the filament looks pretty thin for a 7A. I ordered a fuse for the CSL this morning. Eager to see what all the fuss is about. |
Charles,
Sorry to hear about the persistent failure of Elrogs in your Franks. Mine are still doing OK, but I am probably only getting 2-3 listening sessions in a typical month. If the heat doesn't break soon, the listening may increase as the hiking decreases. I do wonder if my use of the PS 10, using115 V and soft start up, will lead to acceptable service with the Elrogs. However, if (when) they fail, I intend to go to the XLS tubes. We have all been quite patient with Elrog, but the premature failure rate has been unacceptable. |
