Doug Schroeder Method, Double ic
After few hour’s of listening, I found this method to have potential improvement over single IC cable. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B014QK4R44/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00__o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc... I am using 6$ splitter for RCA IC cables. Can anybody recommend better quality splitter under 150$? thanks in advance Thomas |
With connecting two different cables using Y splitter, it is easier to compare the cables with each other by taking one of cables out. My Crystal cable give refined sound but less weight. By combining Crystal cable and Silnote morphius cable, I can get balanced sound with refined detail and enough weight. I will get Zenwave D4 IC cable tomorrow and expect to get Teo Audio GCII next Monday. I look forward to having lot of fun with IC cables for three weeks. |
So how do you discern which cable is responsible for the perceived SQ in the Schroeder Method? It seems as though you are changing two variables at once. In one case, you have only one cable total in the splitter configuration. In the other case, you have two different cables in a parallel configuration. It seems that the Schroeder Method might exaggerate or reveal the SQ differences between IC’s when two different sets of IC’s are used, such as 2 Teo Audio IC’s in a first SM assembly compared to 2 Audioquest IC’s in a second SM assembly. But I’m less certain that a SM assembly having a mixed set of IC’s would be terribly revealing as to which IC was responsible for the effect in SQ. Am I missing something? |
celander, no, you are not missing anything. You said, "But I’m less certain that a SM assembly having a mixed set of IC’s would be terribly revealing as to which IC was responsible for the effect in SQ. " It won't. He's just having fun. Mixing cables is fun because the results are fairly unpredictable, but it does not allow for an efficient way to propel the system toward a given set of sound attributes. Tonight I am putting in a different set of double ICs, even though the system sounds wonderful. One simply does not know the limits of change with gear on hand until all permutations are tried. I just did a comparison once again between using the software volume control on ROON versus the digital volume control of the Exogal Comet. No comparison; the Comet's vol. control quality destroys that of Roon. Anyone using Roon with the software's vol. control is giving up a LOT of sound quality. The only time I would use it was in a config. with a dedicated DAC direct to amp. And, frankly, putting in a dedicated pramp and another set of Interconnects might still be preferable; that's how poor the Roon software volume control is. |
atmasphere, I'm thinking about what you said, "My surmise about what is happening here is that the connection is what is important- it would be interesting to try just running dual connectors into a single cable (sort of the opposite of a Y adapter) and see what happens." I'm wondering what you mean. Are you simply suggesting use of Y cables for XLR applications versus splitters? That has already been done, and I have reported on it. I have been using a few different brands of "reducing" Y cable for XLR in order to do Schroeder Method with them. There is a very noticeable difference in sound quality between the Y cables, as there is between splitters and Y cables. The highest quality Y cable I have used to date for splitting and then reducing XLR interconnects is from Audio Sensibility. I just finished a brief review of them which should be published soon. |
I'm wondering what you mean. Are you simply suggesting use of Y cables for XLR applications versus splitters? That has already been done, and I have reported on it.I was thinking of dual input connections... Another thing to try would be if running single ended, to put the signal through one cable and the ground through the other, with the shields only connected at the source end. The additional capacitance of the extra cable seems counter-intuitive, so my musing was looking for a different explanation. |
I received Zenwave D4 trial cable with courtesy of Dave today. With combination of Zenwave D4 and Crystal Cable using Y splitter, it sound so detailed, focused with natural dynamics, it is the best interconnect that I had tried in my 40 years of audio history. Eva Cassidy sounds spooky as if she is just in front of you. I had gone through more than 15 famous brands of cables. Of course, with mixture of two different IC, I can not tell the contribution of each cables But as long as it sound good , I do not care. Next Monday, I expect to get Teo Audio GCII I doubt Teo can be better than this combination. I can also try combination of Teo and Crystral Cable. But who knows, I will keep update the progress. |
shkong78, I am not surprised at your conclusion that it is better than 15 brands and 40 years of trials. Congratulations on trying it! You are demonstrating that Schroeder Method works not simply because of doubling a single brand of cables, but because of the advantage of using parallel interconnects, regardless of the brand/model. It seems to be a sensible tentative conclusion, but will bear further exploration by myself and others. That is valuable information. Never doubt it can get better. You are not at the pinnacle of your system's capacity. There are always means to improve an audio system, regardless of the pedigree and perceived quality of sound. You will likely end up with several combinations, and you may like a couple of them equally well. Then you have a nice alternative whenever you wish. :) |
@shkong78
then the geometry of cable making is making less sense. Another way of looking at this is to say the commonly agreed methods of making cable upon is making less sense, that is, the methods that are based on the use of hard metals ( copper, silver, aluminum etc...) However when one looks at methods that use amorphous metals ( semi-liquids ) and liquid metals it makes all kinds of sense. Because if Bob Smith is correct ( and the successful use of fiber optic systems, which are amorphous metal based, seems to confirm this ) the issue all along using commonly agreed upon methods of cable making was bandwidth limitations which produce wire generated noise that among other things raises the noise floor and produce phase anomalies that to a greater or lesser extent and obscures the signal . Simply put hard metal based cable assemblies have bandwidth limitations that are reduced when the conductors are doubled. This also explains why amorphous and liquid metal systems are fundamentally superior for broadband signal transmission ( which is what a music signal is...note a lot of standard communication electronics transmission is made to be bandwidth limited to avoid the inevitable cable based noise ) , read their vastly wider bandwidth reduce wire generated noise and allow broad-band signal to be transmitted with more articulation which allows one to hear more of the sound-stage, the micro-detail, the slam etc etc. |
Has anyone used Teo Audio cables as IC’s between a preamp and class D switching amp? If all of this alleged fear of using the SM assemblies with class D amps due to wide bandwidth signal transfer messing with the class D switching frequencies is valid, then the Teo Audio cable’s having 1GHz+ bandwidth should cause problems with class D amps, too. On the other hand, if class D amps don’t malfunction with Teo Audio IC’s, then it’s likely that SM assemblies won’t cause problems with a class D amp. |
I received Teo GCII today. To compare with Zenwave D4 on same condition. I used combination of Teo GCII and Crystal Cable. Wow it has more definition and sharper focus than combination of Zenwave D4 and Crystal Cable. But latter has more details and little bit more refinement. Teo GCII may improve with burn in. Does Teo Ultra have more detail than GCII? I am not ready to go for Kronon yet. |
I made another 2M Schroeder balanced IC, this time using Oyaide Focus 1 XLRs(instead of Bocchino) with a double run of Connex/DH Labs BL-Ag, between AtmaSphere MP-1 preamp output and Merlin BBAM line-level equalizer into modified VSM-MX speakers. This is a clear improvement relative to Neutrik XLRs using a single run of BL-Ag. In additional to the customary audiophile plaudits w/r resolution, warmth, bass extension, et al., there is correction to tone and timbre to die for. Next experiment I need to minimize the variable of the XLR connectors and drill down on the double runs. |
shkong78, it's obvious you are taking this very seriously, and you will get very serious results, the kind of results that do not come to casual audiophiles. dgarretson, No surprise that the connectors make a big difference. It also makes perfect sense that the line-level EQ would be influenced dramatically by the Schroeder Method. To my ear there is not a tonal shift by moving to dual ICs, but instead a deepening, or intensifying of the tonal character, like a deeper shade of a color of paint. Absolutely it sounds far more real. Of course, the tonality would shift with every different pair of Schroeder Method ICs. I do that consistently in my rig. |
One can always pm Teo_Audio (Ken) or taras22 (Taras) and inquire about pricing on their products not listed on the market site. I strongly suspect their prices, risk-free audition period and warranty are the same as list previously on the market site. Or just pm them via one of their listed ads on the market site. |
@ douglas_schroeder Thanks for your kind word. I have a serious system with Lansche 4.1 speaker driven by either Silbatone 300B SET or Line Magnetic 508 SET amp. Eva Cassidy’s voice is a good test for details and clean treble of cable. Through Audio Note and Zenwave D4, her voice is mesmerizing. But through Teo GCii, I do not get enough details or air. On the other hand, I prefer Teo GCii to either Audio Note or Zenwave D4 in playing Mahler’s Symphony with nice definition and decay. Can I get such detail or air through Ultra? Or I need to go for Kronon to get such details? But I am not willing to spend more than 2K$ on IC cable now. |
shkong78, you are encountering the questions that happen when you upgrade and mix cables; some of the results may sound superior with a part of your collection, and some results may sound relatively inferior. I say "relatively�" because the result is far better than previously with one interconnect. We tend to get increasingly picky, even with fantastic improvements in the system. I know that even when the rig gets an amazing improvement, my ability to nit-pick details if I wish is almost unlimited. :) I would presume that as is the case with most cable brands, when a person moves up the line in a product the performance will improve. Whether the precise detail of sound quality you wish for will materialize given any particular interconnect, no one can say. It is possible that pairing two of the GC2 or two Kronon would be better than any mixed set. There is no way to know, and no way to predict accurately. One simply must conduct comparisons to know. |
I’m not sure the GCII is burned in yet..and, importantly... do not burn it in with any form of burn in hardware. Do. not. It takes a good 100 hrs to burn in. Burn it in via listening at line levels. We do indeed have regular GC Ultra RCA cables, yes. Advertising costs on the audiogon forum ----regardless if the item sells or not. So ....we simply do not list all of the seven different versions of RCA cables we sell, the two new Balanced cables, the digital cables (AES & RCA), nor the two speaker cables. |
@ teo_audio I will keep burning in GC2 as you suggest. For your information, it sounds pleasant right out of box with good overall balance and excellent bass. But it falls significantly short of detail offered by Audio Note or Zenwave D4. In the meantime I wish you to get your opinion whether Ultra give significantly more detail than GC2. How about Kronon? thanks in advance Thomas |
The Teo Audio interconnects improve significantly with in-use conditioning. Other cables will too. You should condition your cables before doing up SM assemblies. You are in for a surprise. Everything in terms of SQ improves when moving from the GC2 to the Ultra. I presume the Kronon improves by a significant margin over the Ultra, but I don’t personally know this for a fact as I don’t own a set of Kronon cables. |
@shkong78 I had the original Game Changer RCA and liked it very much as it bested my twice as expensive Darwin the Truth XLR that it replaced. I then tried the Teo Ultra which I found to be superior to GC in every way. I heard about the Schroeder Method at last year's Axpona and decided to try it with two Ultra's and it really worked and loved the sound....another definite upgrade. I then talked to Taras at Teo, after I saw they were producing basically a double double line of cables. Taras said that their connecting of the two cables with a connector of their choice vs the Y connector was another big jump in sound quality. The double double Ultra has gobs of detail. I believe that if I had a good recording of a pin drop that I could hear it on my system You might ask Taras about the double double Ultra as I heard it may best a single Kronon. I hope this information helps in your quest. I also wanted to mention that my system consists of a heavily modded EVS Oppo 205 and a heavily modded 30 watt class A hybrid integrated amp which only requires ONE interconnect. This allows every step up in IC to be absolutely heard and more easily discerned. |
Just out of box, GCII gave nice impression of excellent dynamics and bloom. But when I played Eva Cassidy I got somewhat disappointed with lack of details compared with silver cables. Most cables need burn in and with time going by they sound more refined and organic. But they rarely get more detail with burn in. Liquid metal cable may have advantage in balanced sound with bloom. But it may not be for detail freak like me. I will keep burning it for another week to see what happen. But I am not optimistic. Thomas |
After getting more Y splitters, I am running three IC cables(Audio Note, Crystal Audio, Teo GCII) together. Now I am getting nice details, definition deep bass and transparency. The only downside is that triple combo sound a little bit heavier and slower than combination of Crystal Audio and Teo which sound very fast with clean decay. I inquired Ken about availability of Teo Ultra RCA cable. But if this combination work well, I may go this way. I will listen to this combination for several hours before deciding on order of Ultra. |
Update on Triple Combo after 8 hours of playing. It sounds much better with clear focus. Maybe Y splitter also need burn in. Audio Note(silver plated) and Crystal Cable(pure silver) IC are 20 years old. I paid 2K$ for Audio Note and 1K$ for Crystal Cable (I am original owner). Before trying triple combo, Zenwave D4 and Crystal Cable double gave most balanced sound with pristine treble and nice details. Teo GCII and Crystal Cable double gave very exciting sound with fast transient and nice decays but fall short of Zenwave in details. Teo GCII and Audio Note double gave nice details back but somewhat confused sound. By adding Crystal Cable to Teo GCII and Audio Note double I get ultimate sound with nice details, transparency, deep bass and nice transients. Soundstage is deep and wide for all the above combination without much difference. I will update the result of triple combo after one week(around 50 hours of listening). Thanks a lot Doug for introducing this technique. Thomas |
Thanks Doug for your encouragement. Through my 40 year’s of audio history, I also learnt that unless you try, you will never know. I also started your method on speaker cables. I connected both Teresonic Clarrison Speaker Cable and Audio Note speaker cable at the same time. I will let my impression be disclosed after 8 hours. Initial impression is quite good in that the sound get slightly more relaxed with more reverberation and more 3-D imaging. |
I had used Audio Note speaker cable for 20 years which I paid 3K$ ( I am original owner) It was hard to beat with excellent transparency, treble, tight bass and soundstage. I happened to get used Teresonic Clarrison Speaker Cable at reasonable price about 3 weeks ago. It was close to the performance of Audio Note with more relaxed sound. But ultimately I found that Audio Note has better dynamics and more inner details. I had Teresonic Clarrison Speaker Cable and Audio Note speaker cable connected to my speaker at the same time for 12 hours. It got more relaxed and soundstage got slightly wider and deeper. The most notable thing is it sound more holographic. I thinks Doug Method has more effect on IC cables. But if you have two good speaker cables, you may try. Unless you try yourself, you will never find out. Thomas |
https://www.amazon.com/Round-Up-Erich-Kunzel/dp/B000FKO40C If your system give wide and deep soundstage, then this CD will impress your guest. Now my system give holographic and transparent image of the first track. Horses are moving around. Also my system show excellent dynamics of Gun shot at Track 7. Track 11 ( sound of insect) sound spooky. For the last 20 years I had kept using Audio Note IC and SC cables. But I had changed power cables 6 times during 20 years. About 4 months ago I changed into SR Blue PC. Now I may not need to change IC or Speaker cables for the time being ( Maybe 3 years or longer). |
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rechsm, so you have made a quad version of Schroeder Method IC? Four discrete runs in one plug? Wow! This demonstrates imo unequivocally the importance of the method, and of AWG in the quality. Very nice summary; thanks for sharing this! I am elated that you found the activity worthwhile. I see your system is nice; I'll bet you have obtained a superb level of sound quality. |
Triple connection of speaker cables also do wonder. I have two pairs of Audio Note speaker cables(silver plated, 6 ft each) but both of them have banana. I received connector from banana to spade from Amazon today. After connecting double Audio Note SCs and Teresonic Clarrison Speaker Cable together, it has more definition, clean decay, wider soundstage and slightly more details. New price of Teresonic Clarrison Speaker Cable is 1500$ but I got used one at less. I paid 3K$ for each pair of Audio Note SC 20 years ago. I can extend their life at least another 5 years. It is hard to beat this triple combination with excellent dynamics, nuanced details, wide and deep holographic soundstage. |
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Dear OP I am not surprised that you find double SC work The most notable change from double SCs to Triple SCs is fuller and deeper bass with authority. Also somehow it has more relaxed and clean decay. With triple IC(Audio Note, Crystal Cable, Teo GCII), triple SC(double Audio Note and Teresonic Clarrison) and Synergistic Blue power cables, I am really happy with the sound from Lansche 4.1 speakers using either Silbatone 300B SET or Line Magnetic 508 SET. It is musical, dynamic with nuanced details, wide and deep soundstage. I had just stopped cable rolling at this point and will enjoy the music. I am not the person who keep changing equipment very often. But my humble 100K$ system sound much more musical than any systems that I had heard in many Audio Shows Thomas |
