@taras22, I did catch up with High Water Sound at AXPONA 2019 after I realized he had some Teo Audio products. But I think we already chatted about this.
Doug Schroeder Method, Double ic
I think this topic deserves its own thread , where use double ic through y adapters , from source to preamp, Can’t connect it from Preamp to Amp...For me the result is huge, I can’t go back to single ic....
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I tested another HAVE Inc. custom built DS dual Canare StarQuad integrated assembly (per “Celander Specification”). The integrated assembly is 1-ft length having an RCA male connector at one end and an RCA female connector at the other end. Burned in a set on my cable cooker and tested it with a 1-meter set of Nordost Red Dawn ribbon interconnect cables. Dramatically improved the SQ over the ribbon IC’s alone. Such an integrated SM assembly could provide a “taste” of the improved SQ benefits of a SM assembly for those who own uber-expensive IC’s but don’t want to buy a second, identical set of uber-expensive IC’s (along with 4 external Y-splitters) to test the SM of interconnect placement in their system. |
HA! HAVE is right in my backyard almost. Driven by there and wondered what they were many times.....elephant head and all... I put two pairs of Gabriel Gold Rapture (one 'r' version) on Audio Sensibility Impact SE splitters from my CDP/DAC (Cary 306/200) and tube integrated (VPI 299d) this morning and am slack jawed at the changes. Provocative. Compelling. A surprise birthday party kind of questioning astonishment. I see more silence between images and hear more detail/microdyamics - a LOT more - are what I've first noticed. I'm happy to post more after a bit for all the normal reasons. I'll also say that I was even a little taken aback by the added detail placing emphasis in ways that change the balance in how I heard/listened to some familiar recordings. Kind of disturbing if you like the familiar staying that way...But cool if you're alright with shifting landscapes, changelings and shape shifters. Love a good shape shifting. AND, my curiosity is already piqued over what contribution the y-splitter themselves are making and what the benefits might be of straight up 'double double' construction/design from the originators - some head-to-head with Teo's in-house double double vs. 2 pair w/y-splitters. Anyway, pretty impressive difference right off the starting line. Bound to be fun to see where this sound-track runs and what soundscapes there are along the way. |
budburma, congratulations on your success! You have a lot more fun to come. Many permutations and discoveries await you if you desire to explore further. I simply cannot go back to single IC for any appreciable time, as it is paltry. What was considered by the industry to be very good sound (single IC) is now mediocre, imo. |
Well, there's a bold statement! I can say the the improvement is remarkable in 'realism' for me and in all realms of sonic descriptors and segments. All the qualities I love about the GG Rapture are amplified as if on steroids. It's also true that I was using a $200 IC (used price) which I really liked quite a bit. The SM with 2 of them and the y-splitters is a large step up; it should be acknowledged that it's now almost 3x the price. BUT, it's definitely sounds to be outstripping the law of diminishing returns! |
Budburmas post bring up a question I have. I have maxed out my wire budget on a pair of Wireworld Equinox Silver Eclipses’ (MSRP $700). Is the suggestion that a pair of “lesser” $300 ICs plus splitter a “better sounding” solution? As as an aside, Doug, I’ve stumbled on an excellent sounding system that’s been inspired by your write up of the Exogal comet. Home-brewed Roon Server, USB to an Exogal Comet, Singled ended IC’s to a pair of Quicksilver Mid Monos driving a pair of Audio Note AN E’s. I was planning on building a Raspberry Pi ROON Endpoint, but I’ve decided to wait until I can hear the Exogal Vortex. I’m hoping there’s one in your review queue. |
Markhh2, in answer to your first question, yes. I think that sort of result would be typical of Schroeder Method ICs. You will want to read my just published Audio Blast regarding the HyperDrive upgrade for EXOGAL Ion at Dagogo.com There is a LOT more where the Comet came from. Much more than you think possible. |
A white paper describing our technology and approach is now on our website, linked from the home page and relevant product pages. It is 17 pages long but is written to be easy enough to read and understand by most people. http://exogal.com/images/PDFs/EXOGAL_DAC_and_PowerDAC_White_Paper.pdf Brian Walsh |
I purchased a pair of Teo GC's double/double inXLR for my Benchmark Dac/Amps. I am speechless at the level of improvement! Honestly is like i changed the front end, amps or speakers. Huge improvement bottom to top, piano, horns, violins , drums and voices are way more like live music. The width of stage improvement is next level! I could keep going but one must try the Teo liquid cables and Dougs method of doubling interconnects. Thank you to Doug for bringing this to light and thank you to Taras and Ken of Teo audio for the incredible cables and service! |
Just a little update only Teo audio double/double XLR Schroeder set up. First is these cables just keep getting better with run time. I have a Dspeaker X4 and was actually running double conversion as i preferred the sound signature of my Benchmark Dac. Decided to use the Teo double/double from the X4 right to my Benchmark amps. All i can say is the Dac3 is going up for sale. The Teo cables and Schroeder method are truly next level. I am still amazed in the difference they make. Like i said before it is truly like a component change and need to be heard to be believed. Thank you again Doug for posting this and Taras and Ken of Teo audio for designing the best cables i have ever experienced! Saving up for the speaker cables next! |
Several years ago I sold off my big rig and downsized because of shifting financial sands. My system is still beyond what a "normal" person might consider reasonable, but here, among my peeps, you know what I mean. I've felt a little put off by it's sound, but have really learned to sit with it instead of obsessing over the next improvement and stop listening so much to the equipment instead of the music. It was a strange moment to have obvious defiicits in sound point out that I had forgot to relax and enjoy the tunes! SO, the Schroeder method was doubly (triply?) welcomed by ratcheting way up the sound of my system, satisfying my tweaky pull and really making listening to the tunes through this system insanely fun and deeply satisfying. It took a while for the Audio Sensibility Impact SE's and the cables to settle in, but now the soundstage, imaging, detail and (most importantly for me) round, involving presence is SO improved that I can't wait to get home and listen and I don't feel like I've sold myself short with my 'downsize'. I guess I'm grateful that I had to downsize to get back to the tunes and the Schroeder method came to my attention when I could settle into it...and for the method itself, of course. It's an odd impetus to feel like analysis of a new tweak is more like pulling out the red pen and looking for what might not be working or what could be better rather than what's improved. That's never my intention, but often where I end up. The improvements with this tweak are not subtle and range from the describable to the ineffable where words fail and only emotion from an experience, identified and shared by others, can "descibe" it. Thanks, Doug, you (and this) rock. FWIW: Audio Sensibility Impact SE's w/ Gabriel Gold Rapture r 's CD/DAC ( Cary 306/200) to Integrated (VPI 299D) w/ Twisted Pair Designs Ascents Phono Pre (AES PH-1 modded to DJH) to Integrated An aside - Art Almstead has been an OEM cable maker over his garage for many cable companies for inexpensive to very expensive boutique partners and hand makes Twisted Pair cables that are really remarkable in that disappearing, no signal loss or sonic signature way - not too pricey and....welllll...awesome! http://www.twisted-pair-design.com/ |
budburma, that is a most lovely description of the benefits of Schroeder Method; thank you! :) I am elated that people are benefitting from the Method. You are testimony to the fact that it does not require an outlandish system, nor expensive cabling to obtain the benefit. (That being said, I have found correlation between the quality of the IC used in doubling and the quality of the end result, as would be expected.) What's really shocking about the Method is that for decades everyone has been captive to a method that is simply impoverished. Single IC imo is pretty poor, now that it becomes clear that there is a vastly superior alternative. The difference is anything but subtle, and shows how critical cabling is for systems. I think this would be the ultimate convincing proof of the importance of cables, if hobbyists would bother to try it. That is especially so since theorists disdain it, as though nothing good could come out of it. That makes the Schroeder Method all the sweeter as a victory for obtaining superior sound. :) I also have shown quite convincingly that the notion of certain supposedly superior designs in components which are thought to be insensitive to cables is erroneous. Repeatedly we have digital fans declaring that products like the Benchmark DACs, etc. are not influenced much/at all by cables. That has not been my experience. Even the Exogal Comet, which is supposed to be completely immune to such things because the proprietary signal processing makes a new waveform is very influenced by the ICs. From the source I swap between the Audio Sensibility Schroeder Method ICs and the double ICs I have built with the Audio Sensibility Y Cables and the Clarity Cable Organic ICs - and the difference is obvious, like changing the dimming settings on lights in the room. BTW, Blessed Father's Day! |
My ears tell me that cabling matters everywhere. The vast majority of my audio adventure has centered around cabling, because it's easier and cheaper than component swapping and can make as big a difference...of course, finding the right (enough) components first should take precedent. That being said, my system is proof positive that they don't have to be 'perfect' to get to a great space. I generally work from the walls out and start with power cables, then i/c's, then s/c's...then wash, rinse and repeat! Not so much anymore, but that's definitely the way it went... |
Occasionally I am contacted via the message system regarding someone wishing to try Schroeder Method, and they ask about a particular assemblage of gear, whether it will be safe to try. My answer continues to be review the original article (Audio Blast: Schroeder Method of Interconnect Placement at Dagogo.com), the threads here in regard to it, and contact your manufacturer to inquire about whether it is safe. To date I have not heard of any incidents with incompatibility or damage to gear. My best information tells me that this is patently safe, as it would merely half the impedance and double capacitance. The admonition is that this should not be used with very long ICs as it could be a problem for some preamps to drive. I have been told my more than one manufacturer that an IC of about 1m would not present any problem. I typically double up 2m ICs and have used two instances in systems regularly (i.e. between source and integrated DAC, and between integrated DAC and amp(s). I have heard concern regarding use of the Schroeder Method when using an NOS DAC (output driven from a chip) or a Class D amplifier. However, I know that TEO Audio has used a Red Dragon class D amp successfully. I would like to try it with an inexpensive class D sometime. The warnings have largely been theoretical, however, manufacturers have a right to state what would or would not void a warranty. Most gear seems perfectly content with Schroeder Method. I have used Belles, Benchmark, Exogal, First Watt, COS, Redgum Audio, Eastern Electric components all successfully. They all have sounded far superior using Schroeder Method. I am also using another well known amplifier, and a different manufacturer’s preamplifier, currently with Schroeder Method successfully (but they are under review and I do not wish to disclose them at this time). I regularly use Schroeder Method for both RCA and XLR, and both work equally well with it. The body of information seems to be growing that the doubling of ICs is benign to most gear. Every instance that is tried is helpful information to learn about it. I imagine there could be some bizarre combination of gear that might be incompatible, so the warning stands. However, so far, all systems I am aware of that it has been tried have been without harm. |
Back to your previous post, Doug, and not to nitpick, but expense and quality don't necessarily go hand in hand. I imagine many if us spent plenty of money on wires....and gear...with sometimes disappointing results. Gabriel Gold and Twisted Pair Designs aren't overly expensive, but of considerable quality in design, construction, components and, most importantly, sonics. I've listened closely to many, many cables and can say that with some degree of confidence. Taking it personally would be too silly for words (ha!) - these are those rare cables that are worth the more than the price of admission for me and worth a listen anyway. That said, I've listened to them in other's systems with variable results - and so it goes! |
Doug, I now have the Schroeder Method on all 3 of my IC connections: Teo GC/ GC II ICs Modwright 5400 to TRL DUDE preamp, same combo ICs Whest .30 RDT SE phono pre to DUDE, and Schroeder Method JW Reference ICs DUDE to Nuforce Ref 9 V3 SE w/ TDSS level 3 upgrades. In all 3 cases, the sound quality improved considerably in all ways with the doubling method. I used the JW on the preamp to amp ICs because I had a chance to hear my system before buying the ICs with another set of Teo’s and the JW’s. The JW’s brought more impact and initial strike to the music--more live, whereas the extra Teo was too much of a good thing in one direction. I have a chance to try this with double Amadi Maddie Signature ICs going from the preamp to the amp, also. Will report back IF this is even better sounding than using the JW’s at that same spot. What if this were even better? I LOVE the sound of my system at this point. I now have Clarity Audio Organic speaker cables and jumpers going to Vapor Audio Joule Black speakers. The analog section is a VERY upgraded Lenco 78, Pete Riggle Woody arm, and Benz Micro Ruby 3 w/ Soundsmith level 3 retip. Bob |
I've triedthe Schroeder method with a couple of already excellent interconnects. How about two Teo GC Ultra's. The result is really really good. Better yet the Teo Double Double Ultra is even a few notches better for a similar price. I will not touch my interconnects ts u less a Double Double Kronon comes out. |
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piouser, congratulations on the success! I think you are the first to comment on the use of Schroeder Method for surround application. I anticipate that it would be as well received/regarded as with stereo. I would guess that the impact for your multimedia experience is quite positive. Thank you for your feedback! :) Out of curiosity, would you like to share the primary elements of the system in use with Schroeder Method in surround? |
Doug, Thanks for the compliments. This method is also used on my 2 channel tube system that consists of a pair of Omega HO Alnico towers, feed from a Modwright Sony 5400ES, a Don Sachs 65 watt Kootney amp paired with his SP14 linestage with all the bells and whistles to date. And of course 4 - EC 300s in place. The DSM added a little more clarity. The cabling had a greater impact with the solid state. Not sure why, but that's my assessment. |
piouser, thank you for the additional information. Interesting that you found the SS to have a greater impact. That is the first time I have seen a distinction made between SS and Tube in regard to the degree of change with Schroeder Method. It will be interesting to see whether others have similar or different results in that regard. |
Has anyone here tried this out with Morrow cables? I have Morrow 4 and 5 level interconnects. If so, did you use a second pair of Morrows? I’m wondering if this works or is it the same as moving up to a higher level? While I’m at it,,,, do you twist your cables together, run them attached to each other but not twisted, or keep them separated? Thanks, Tim |
Tim, whatever you do, DO NOT COMBINE EVEN AND ODD NUMBERED PRODUCTS! ;) Just kidding; there are people here who have only done homogenous sets and those who have done mixed sets, as well as mixing brands. The results seem to be uniformly good either way. As regards the run of the two cables, some twist them, some do not. I have tried the Clarity Cable Organic IC with one twist and tried them without the twist, and the difference did not pass my Law of Efficacy. In that case I discerned no difference between twisting them together and not. Frankly, imo doing the Schroeder Method typically raises the performance, even with moderately priced cables, beyond the best single IC the company can offer. |
I couldn’t help myself. I just had to try one leg, even though I am not ready and had to use some slightly better than generic Y splitters. I played a couple of songs with my current hook up to establish a base for the evening. Secondly, I hooked up just the original IC through the Y splitters and played the same songs. I have to tell you my first thought was this resulted in too much lost quality to make up. Lastly, I then hooked up the second cable, which I had laying around, and was flat out flabergasted by the leap in sound quality. No matching of cables, just a generic Y splitter and yet,,, WOW. To me this kind of improvement is incredible because I am the polar opposite of the straight wire with gain, purists. My system is a quadraphonic system with equalization, DBX enhancement, additional tube preamps acting as tube buffers, and a dedicated subwoofer chain. So this test involved only one out of twelve interconnects I use in my system. One of the legs between my dac and my preamp. When I actually get equipment together to do this right I think this is going to be amazing. I may get so carried away that I get a little crazy and try to combine an odd numbered Morrow IC with an even numbered Morrow IC. Damn the warning, full speed ahead! Thanks, Tim |
toolbox 149, your post is greatly appreciated, because it's another sincere, unbiased assessment of the profound influence of Schroeder Method. You bring up a good point. Skeptics often default to an objection that seems logical, even though it's wrong. When I was first trying double ICs one of the first thoughts I had was, "Will the poor quality connection of a splitter or Y-cable destroy any advantage in doubling the wires?" I know how splitters and Y-cables influence the sound, as I have used them a lot. I typically will avoid them whenever possible. However, in judicious use they can vastly improve a system holistically. I was hopeful that the doubling of the cables benefit would vastly outweigh the "drag" on the results due to splitters/Y-cables. I was right. The difference is profoundly superior to a single cable, despite the less than perfect connection. Obviously, this is not ideal. I have had some responses to Schroeder Method condemning it because I used splitters initially. This is not terribly astute. I was looking for proof of concept on the cheap rather than pay for double cables to be made. In addition, splitters and Y-cables allow for recombination of cables, a big bonus when putting it on trial. Overall, imo starting with the marginal cost of splitters or Y-cables as opposed to sourcing a double IC is a more sensible way to proceed if you demand proof of concept and are skeptical. I understand the notion that people don't want to pay money for something about which they are unsure. This is about as cheap as it comes to try an unorthodox method. At this point I don't know what the limits might be for sets of double ICs, perhaps no limit. There is still much experimentation being done. Some have tried a triple IC, and I'm told it's marvelous. Lot's of fun for those who, having judged the "do at your own risk" nature of it, and have tried it! To date I know of no negative outcome. It's very good that people with alternative setups are also seeing the benefit immediately. |
Fascinating thread. It finally motivated me to quit lurking and post something. I understand Schroeder’s need for a warning on a public forum but I still don’t understand why doubling up on the interconnects (and halving inductance) would cause any kind of system incompatibility or oscillations. To an engineer a perfect wire is just a connection between two points and should have zero resistance, capacitance, and induction. The components act as there is nothing in between. If there is some impedance incompatibility it is the components incompatibility, not the wire between them. In the real world wires have small amounts of resistance, capacitance, and induction and this can become a problem with longer runs. But I can’t see how a wire with LESS inductance causing a problem. Think of it like this. You have a 10 foot interconnect and it is safe and stable. If you switch to a 1 foot interconnect you will have 1/10th of the inductance. I never heard of anyone blowing up a system by using too short of an interconnect! |
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Another gorgeous setup using EE Minimax DAC Supreme direct to Gold Note PA-1175 Amp(s). The Schroeder Method maximizes the benefit of a shortened signal path. BTW, a word of caution, this is a setup using a dedicated DAC direct to amp, which is NOT recommended, obviously, unless software attenuation can be used. It is not safe to run a dedicated DAC without volume control into an amp. It must either be an integrated DAC with volume control, or some other combination of attenuation, not signal unattenuated into amp. In my case I am using Roon's volume control feature. When I wish I can go into the Settings for Roon on the SONORE Signature Rendu systemOptique and change the volume control to "fixed" for use only when I have an integrated DAC, or a preamp. Wonderful flexibility! I will be getting the latest V6 opamps from Burson to try out. That should really juice the performance of the EE Minimax DAC Supreme. |