I think this topic deserves its own thread , where use double ic through y adapters , from source to preamp, Can’t connect it from Preamp to Amp...For me the result is huge, I can’t go back to single ic....
The Teo Audio guys have the goods on a lot of these metrics in terms of SQ comparisons of their single-run IC’s versus their corresponding SM, Double-Double counterpart IC assemblies. A “SQ truth table” of their products would be worth seeing.
Celander this is my experience single Cerious Tech ic vs KC in SM method, I prefer the KC SM method , on my Teac 301 dac to my Norh monos.On vynil from TT to phono preamp going to my viva 300b integrated the starquad is better than KC on SM method music is flesh out more...
Interesting thread... How are you all getting the AQ splitters to fit two pair of cables into the preamp inputs with space constraints on the rear panel between left/right connectors? Seems it would be to close for comfort.
Once the potential of Schroeder Method is learned, the initial proper comparison between an identical single versus a double IC becomes expected. The real excitement is comparison beyond, to find the relative strength of the Method in building systems. For instance, I would expect there to be many instances of an IC costing $100 when doubled to outperform a single IC of the same, or other, brand costing $500. If the Schroeder Method was not so effective I would not speculate such, but the result is obviously powerful and begs the question whether it can yield extreme performance with more affordable ICs.
Obviously, that in no way makes the lower line IC a better cable; it's the method that determines the outcome. I would expect that audiophiles who do comparisons between lower line doubled ICs and higher line single ICs will conclude the lower line IC doubled to outperform the higher line single in the majority of cases, i.e. 60% or higher. Even if the performance was seen as comparable, the cost saving would be considerable and the method meritorious. Time will tell if I am correct in this.
Once an audiophile knows how the Schroeder Method is efficacious, I suspect that it won't be long before marching up the ladder in terms of the line of ICs to employ it. This is one reason why splitters are commendable, at least initially until a final determination is made as to what the "last" doubled IC will be.
aolmrd1241, yes it is a most interesting thread, especially when the result is heard! The Schroeder Method became VERY interesting when it worked superbly well the first time I tried it! It continues to gather momentum among those who are trying it. (Please note all the caveats and warnings with certain systems). You would do well to refer to my original article at Dagogo.com; I believe it is linked here in this thread.
In regards to a preamp having no room, I have yet to find a component where I could not affix the Audioquest splitters for the purposes of the Schroeder Method. I may have to orient them differently, i.e. with the cables approaching the post from the side or top, but I can get it done. I could care less if cables are protruding above the component, as the sonic result is what matters. And when this result is heard one quickly forgets about the issue of position of cables.
Different preamps (and sources) have varying degrees of distance that separates L/R channel connections. The Monster-styled, solid Y-splitters provide the most challenging connections, whereas the AQ-styled, extended-tailed Y-splitters providing a bit more space. The plurality of paralleled IC pairs can be dressed by applying a loose twist to each pairing (or using Velcro cable ties as needed).
celander, yes, there are differences in spacing between L/R outputs on preamps and amps, but I have yet to use one that cannot accommodate the Audioquest RCA Splitters. The splitters are no wider than the standard RCA cable.
If a person has challenges with splitters and spacing, then try a "y" cable instead, which should alleviate the problem and accomplish a similar, though not identical outcome.
..just checking......the Y connection for balanced cables in this application needs to be female XLR to double Male, and then double Female to single Male....is that right?
Yes, that is correct. You will find that precious few XLR makers have the second version, the double female to single male. I found one online that was cheap, but sounds poor, and another that was marginally better for pro sound applications. Neither are acceptable for my purposes. I spent maybe $75 on them total as a cost of testing. Well worth it to establish that the quality of the Y cables are crucial to achieving the best outcome (when Schroeder Method is used with splitters/Y cables).
I was directed to Audio Sensibility and am now testing XLR splitters/rejoiners as indicated above made by that company; so far, superb results. Audio Blast article pertaining to Audio Sensibility specialized products for Schroeder Method underway.
I currently am using the XLR cables under review in Schroeder Method configuration between the Benchmark DAC3 DX and a pair of Benchmark AHB2 Amplifiers in Mono Mode. Rocket ride, baby!
A person can put together a Schroeder Method set of ICs on the cheap, and they should expect lovely results. However, as with all wiring, better cables will provide superior results. All of the testing I have done so far confirms this. So, if cheap splitters/Y cables are used along with inexpensive/low grade ICs, while there will be a surprising improvement, this in no way suggests that the limit has been reached. I suspect there are some stunning results to be found with superior connectors and cables, or alternatively with manufactured superior cables in Schroeder Method.
There is a LOT of room to roam upward in performance, even after the initial jolt that comes from hearing Schroeder Method the first time. :)
Doug.....I bought the 1 meter pair from Audio Sensibility....it seems they make a cable that doesn't need the Y connectors but still maintains the Schroeder method. He told me that this cable is better than the double with Y connectors since it eliminates the adapters. When I get the 1 pair back to try out, I'll report back. Thanks
stringreen, Steve mentioned your order in an email today. You will be one of the first to get an Audio Sensibility cable with Schroeder Method construction. I will look forward to your impressions.
Mind if I ask what components in your system you will be trying it on? No class D amplification, right?
You’re right Doug....no class D......All Ayre - CD/Universal silver disc player, amp, preamp, VPI turntable/3D arm 2nd pivot/Winfield cartridge, Vandersteen 5A speakers. Everything including phono is balanced cable, speakers are bi-wired. Top Wireworld cables at present (who knows what the future brings) Looking forward to hearing what all this jibberjabber is all about :)
Steve @ Audio Sensibility has made very fine cables for quite a long time now( I use his power cords in my system and have been very happy with their performance ) and his stab at building using the Schroeder Method will most likely be stellar as well. Looking forward to hearing your impressions.
It is a do at your own risk activity, as I'm sure you are aware. I have had no complications in about ten systems I have set up so far with both RCA and XLR.
Ok, I just connected double Cerious Technologies Matrix XLR cables using splitters made from Hosa Technology. They claim to be made using oxygen free copper. I’m not sure how these would compare to the Audio Sensibility but they are a lot cheaper! I have them connected from my PS Direct Stream Dac to my BSG QOL.
So far, everything seems to sound about the same as when I just used the single XLR interconnect. I’m also going to contact Cerious to see if Bob can make some.
I may have posted my results prematurely. The Matrix Cerious Technologies cable do take some time to resettle after being moved and sure enough a few hours later and I am really liking the sound of the dual interconnects.
Ozzy, excellent! I'm glad you like the effect. You are using what seem to be very inexpensive XLR Y cables. The change with superior Y cables is noticeable, and I am told that the difference between an assembled set with splitters/Y cables and a manufactured set is profound. Taras from TEO Audio has said the manufactured double set has another quite discernible level of improvement.
Awaiting (not so patiently) for my cables to arrive from Audio Sensibility. I only ordered 1 pair, but if the DS system works, I’ll get all the cables. The longest one is about 4 meters.....preamp to amp. The others are 1 meter. ..just thinking....My speakers are Vandersteen 5A’s which have high pass (maybe low pass) filters. The preamp is connected to the filters which then go into the seperate amps in each speaker. The filters roll off the lows at a specific rate which goes to the mids/highs section of the speaker, whereas the woofer amps increase the lows at the appropriate level to balance the rest of the speaker....actually it sounds complicated, but it works well. My amp is freed of the task of powering the low end and kind of loafs amplifying the mids/highs. I don’t want anything untoward to happen to my over 100 lb amp, so I’ll first put the new D/S cables into my dedicated headphone amp. If that one blows up, it might be easier to repair. We’ll see how it all goes.
stringreen, just be sure your equipment is rated to handle an 8 meter run (doubled 4m).
If you are explaining this to a manufacturer, expect there may be mockery. I have found a split approx. 50/50 with manufacturers and designers. Some are very curious and open to helpful discussion, and the other group are derisive and dismissive. It pretty much mirrors the split in the community of hobbyists in regard to such things.
But, derision and dismissive attitude don't determine results. :)
You are making a decision to limit potential damage/fallout, which is how I would proceed as well. If I am going to do experimentation, at least initially I will put up for sacrifice something that is not too expensive. Trust me, it's not easy to place a several thousand dollar amp in a chain with an experimental connection knowing that I may be ponying up serious money for a trial. One way to potentially lessen the fallout should the test go bad was to only hook up one channel. That way if it blew only one channel would be effected and repair costs mitigated, or the unit salvageable versus a write off.
One of the reasons I keep a expensive preamp and amp on hand is to have a "test subject" for whatever is experimental. If an older design which is robust gets taken out, then there is no way I'm going to put a newer design with a potentially less bomb-proof layout to test.
It was a scary moment the first time I did a test of it, not knowing whether I would see a component fail. I still have to calm my nerves when putting up a new rig with it. It's not kid's play when a piece of kit at thousands of dollars is hooked up with an experimental configuration. But, the results were SO profoundly positive that it cannot be ignored, imo. It makes single IC hook up sound paltry, pathetic.
So far, however, with 1m length the Schroeder Method has been very agreeable with all sorts of system connections. Based on the results so far at some point I may be able to call it universally "safe" when enough body of evidence amasses to say that it nearly universally - with appropriate gear - will be safe.
All this caution makes Schroeder Method seem initially like free solo climbing. But, I think more realistically it is akin to climbing with gear, which greatly mitigates risk.
Hi Doug....just thought all who are reading this blog would be interested in Ayre’s response as to cable length... They told me that they use 10 meters balanced interconnects in their sound room with absolutely no issues at all. (30 feet!)
..just installed the new Schroeder balanced cables. ..absolutely no electrical issues....dead quiet..They are made very well...2 cables merge into 1. Clearly, they have to be broken in more. I’ve listened for about an hour.....what jumps out to me are the dynamic contrasts....percussive sounds, etc. I’ll let them settle, and post back.
stringreen, excellent that they are operationally compatible. I'll look forward to more descriptions as you hear them more. I found that dynamics were among the characteristics that benefitted from the Schroeder Method. Systems seem more vivid, punchy, lively. I also found that the resolution is much better, consequently extending the soundstage dramatically.
Too busy filling orders right now, but can easily do it. It is a very simple build really. I can do XLR or RCA. I could use 16 or 20 gauge. I just built a usb cable using this idea. Interesting and more difficult to do right.
ozzy, I am working with Audio Sensibility to explore Schroeder Method in different permutations, to get a handle on comparative cables, i.e. single vs. Schroeder Method doubled manufactured.
Steve at Audio Sensibility can make up the doubled XLR ICs, even though not on the website. Steve has been testing the Schroeder Method and has been impressed enough to make up cables for me to continue to review and assess. I very much appreciate his involvement, but I am not surprised at all that he is motivated, given the results that happen when doubling interconnects.
I got a double Schroeder balanced interconnect and have been using it for a couple of days now. What I find really interesting is how it changes as its breaking in. The first place I put it was between the CD player and the dedicated headphone amp. I couldn't believe the dynamic contrasts of the music I was hearing. ...not as to how loud it got, but rather it seemed to allow the after beat from the drummer to really stand out rather than sound "lazy" in comparison. I have a Purist Audio break in disc and played it through....you can't listen to it...its only noise. Anyway I got brave and connected the power amp and speakers. That dynamic that I liked seemed to lesson somewhat, but the speakers absolutely disappeared. The walls in the front of the room vanished. The instruments appeared not only with depth that I had with the older cables, but each instruments was suspended in its own space closer, and farther away. In a Niel Diamond record, a scratch guarro, sounded like someone was playing it not in the house, but way out to the right on the patio of the pool. The instruments and singer are now smaller and set in their own space. The cable just became better and better....the definition increased, so that listening to lyrics is now much easier. I could understand much of Elton John, but with this new cable I can relax and just let the understanding of what he's saying come through. As far as tonality is concerned Schroeder's cable sounds very, very similar to my expensive silver interconnects....but its as though a pretty girl has had a pro makeup person bring out the very best for a Robb Report centerfold. I'll get more cable for the long run from preamp to amp....I'll suppose there will be more to say. Thanks Doug
So let’s see. We have Teo Audio, HAVE, Audio Sensibility, and perhaps some custom DYI’ers like grannyring who are willing to make paralleled SM IC assemblies without requiring external splitters. The SM movement is gaining some traction.
stringreen, you're welcome! Glad you are having success with the Schroeder Method. It sounds like another happy user. It is a profound change, imo.
I have been very pleased with how it is going in system development. I have not had in instance yet where Schroeder Method failed to vastly improve a rig. It's astonishing how much components are choked - that's about the best word for it, "choked" - via use of single IC. Performance of components is SO much better with double interconnects.
One of the most enjoyable aspects of all this is the seeming irrationality of it. Theory does not dictate such a result, which is why it's so much fun. It seems nonsense, or worse. Yet, there it is! The results are anything but funny. :)
My guess is there are people quietly trying this in the background who have not come forward yet. We have a lot of people intimidated by conventional wisdom, by nearly bully matches on threads, etc. One of the great things about this is that Schroeder Method is pretty cheap to implement if one wishes, and confers a major change even with affordable ICs. It's a win/win in terms of exploration. (As long as one respects the warnings regarding which equipment and systems it is to be avoided.)
Stringreen, if things hold to their pattern in my use, the effect will be additive, and you will have additional improvement with another set of double ICs. Don't think for a moment that it could not get any better. All systems can be improved, usually far beyond our expectation. That it can be done relatively cheaply is a big bonus. You may conclude as I have that the Schroeder Method confers change on a level of component upgrades of several thousand of dollars. I have handled a lot of gear, some expensive, and this is not a "cheap" upgrade sonically. :)
Has anyone else lurking in the background done the Schroeder Method connections?
I have seen only two mediocre results, and both of those seem to have been associated with headphone amps. I am unsure whether this would play a role in the less than impressive results obtained by others.
I think it is entirely possible that the sound quality of the connection using Schroeder Method is of such high caliber that some headphone amps can't handle it. I wonder if there might be some signal saturation happening with headphone setups. I would encourage those who have tried it on headphone setups to try another combination using speakers, and see if there is a different result.
Doug....I hate to say this, but my new cables are not doing the magic they did when new. I have to investigate this more before saying more......I'll be back when I'm assured.
Sorry I haven’t read all the posts but does this method require identical pairs of ICs between the two components or there’s still some improvements using different ICs? I have an extra pair of good ICs and some splitters that I can try but just wanted to ask. Thanks.
kalali, you should read up on the Schroeder Method to find out, among other things, that it is a "do at your own risk" technique. It is in the experimental stage in terms of finding out the parameters of its use.
It is recommended to use four identical ICs, but I believe that member jayctoy has tried combining ICs of different makes. You may wish to talk to him here as well. As far as improvements go, I presume that even when using mismatched pairs of ICs the Schroeder Method would provide potentially superior results over a single IC.
Also note that it does not take expensive ICs for it to work.
maxima95, well, it's good that you ask rather than ignore the advice. My understanding is that the double IC can potentially cause instability in the operation of a class D amp, causing it to oscillate and potentially cause damage to it. That is why at this time it is not recommended for class D.
Sorry that it is not recommended that you join the party at this time. :( If someone is hellbent on trying it, I adjure they must speak with their manufacturer first. This is a do at your own risk activity, and from the designers and theorists who are advising me the risk falls squarely more so with class D and with less robust specialty amps. I do not have all the answers to this and only with time and experimentation will much more be known about the parameters of the Schroeder Method.
The caution in regard to class D amps in no way makes the Schroeder Method ineffectual; it's impressive with class A/B amps I have used to date, and with the Benchmark Audio Class AAA amps. The Benchmark DAC3 DX and AHB2 amps in Mono are superlative with Schroeder Method, among the most exquisite sounds I have had in my room to date.
You're right Doug....your wire IS better. Dynamics, clarity, smoothness, etc., etc. I've been working the Arizona elections and have been too busy for proper evaluation. Thanks
...just bought a stereo 5 meter run from the preamp to the amp, and another 1 meter from the CD player to the pre. I'm using the current 1 meter from the turntable....Very pleased. I'll post more when I get the long one.
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