Don't try to fix these electrical prolbems with a conditioner!

@wsrrsw  - Excellent numbers.  Now just watch it during the day. :) 

This is with the stereo playing a bit louder than normal

@bigtwin 

Have you finished your basement project? 

Can you share what it is that you did with reference to running lines for your rig?I could just buy what you installed... 

 If you ran more than one, did you distance them from one another and is it OK to simply have them sit side by side within a couple feet of your equipment rack?

Big twin, if you come across loose electrical connections, it’s important not to just tighten them.  The conductor should be cut back,stripped,they properly torqued.  You might find the torque specs on the device, or the manufacture’s website.  It’s a pain but as they say the electrical code is written in blood….

rich

Once again Erik has nailed it!   Well said

rich

@atmasphere

I'm curious if you think the reason the "commercial AC power conditioner market had the bottom drop out of it a long time ago- back in the 1980s" was due to the fact that we moved from primarily linear power supplies to SMPSs right around that time?  Or is there another reason in particular for your postulation?

I have a 35 years old trac house that is fairly nice build , but I did find exceptions. Decent Supply panel and appropriate gauge copper wire and decent grounding  including multiple earth ground rods. However  the inside was finished with subpar duplex outlets.

We don’t think of breakers as wearing out but they do.  40 years is a very good run for breakers, especially if outdoors.  I replaced most of mine at 15 years and added a whole house surge suppressor.  Hopefully this means I don’t have to think about this for 30 more years. 

Standards have changed though.  While not required to come up to modern code I did, replacing indoor circuits with CAFCI and GFCI where required.  

This house was a rental, though rented to adults and service members.  After 15 years of use, and several rounds of painters doing goodness knows what to the switches and covers I decided to do a whole-sale replacement of every wall switch, GFCI and almost every outlet in the house.  Glad I did, I found a number of issues, and signs of prior arcing and resolved some "haunted" lights. 

You don’t have to go that OCD on your home, but this stuff is why I think that the bare minimum you should do is get a 3 light AC outlet tester and make sure things are wired as they should be. 

In addition to prior improper maintenance, light switches and outlets DO wear out as well. 

I would like to ad something I experienced that might be relevant. I have a 35 years old trac house that is fairly nice build , but I did find exceptions. Decent Supply panel and appropriate gauge copper wire and decent grounding  including multiple earth ground rods. However  the inside was finished with subpar duplex outlets. I replaced my outlets and added Hubbell medical grade for my stereo and 3 TV’s. Over time I had a GFI circuit in my wet bar that had my lights dimming when I ran a high current hot water heater. I checked the panel and all was good. One day I was working on my pool and at the time had an older single speed pump motor. I heard the motor going on/ off , on/off in short spurts. I went over to the panel and could hear very slight intermittent arching. Long story short , I had tired breakers that would trip easy or not hold full load. The 40 amp breaker for the pool had pitting on the bus bar. I moved  that breaker location and installed new breakers on most of the circuits and ensured everything was tightened down. My service panel is on the west side of the house and cooks in the hot summer sun. Two years ago , when I had solar installed , I requested to have a new service panel installed. My point is the average person does not think of this as a wear item and never inspects. My senior neighbors had their panel let go one day with a violent event and we’re fortunate to not have a house fire. It’s my understanding that this is greatly complicated with aluminum wiring. Also over the years I have encountered low voltage issues that have damaged the controller in my air conditioning. Most of you are above my pay grade , but some just don’t know   Cheers , Mike B. 

Hey @mikenike80s 

See this is exactly the problem we all have.  Audiophiles think they get a dedicated line from the power company to their panel and they don’t.  Lots of external factors come into play. 

While I absolutely don’t recommend fixing bad wiring issues in the home with a conditioner, I would rather have a power conditioner with voltage regulator like this one than to rely on a dedicated line. 

From years of watching my AC voltage fluctuate in apartments and my home, I know the biggest factor in having a stable AC voltage is everything going on outside AND how my HVAC is operating.  Perhaps a dedicated line can reduce some noise, but it's not going to solve the neighbor problem or the HVAC problem. 

I will add another thing to take into consideration.

"THE NEIGHBOR'S"

Trace your power lines from your utility meter back to the transformer and see who else is connected to the load side. If your lines are above ground this is easy but if they're buried or you live in an apartment you'll have to guess.

I live in the city and for a couple of years we had a hobbyist welder renting a garage which you guessed it was sharing the load side of the utility transformer with a few houses. Every time he would start welding, anything plugged in capable of making sound would squeal and pop. All us neighbor's complained so much the utility eventually put that property on its own transformer. Before that I tried a few of the things mentioned in this group, within my limited budget, to no avail.

Moral of the story, don't assume the problem is yours.

@erik_squires  another one to add to your list is checking (or have someone with experience help) all the connections on your main panel.  I don't know why this happens, but it not uncommon to find screws on breakers, or the neutral buss that need to be tightened.   Cheers.

@goodlistgening64

Consider the case of a missing ground wire.  This is not an audiophile issue.  This is a life safety issue.  If your outlet is 3 prong, and the ground is open or missing, or swapped with the neutral a basic safety feature of your home and equipment has been disabled.  this is true if you are using an integratd amplifier or your clothes washer. 

So this is one example why I’m not really talking about this as an audiophile issue.  It’s an electrical and life safety issue and finally it may ensure your system behaves well. :) 

What you suggest is a way to determine (sort of) if your lines are causing your rig to sound less than optimal.

@goodlistening64 

That’s not how I would phrase it.  I’d say this is what you should do to make sure your wiring is performing as intended.  It doesn’t even have to be for your stereo or TV.  

As you mentioned, this is important for old homes that may have inferior cables, dirty lines, or subpar outlets.

But, what about those that live in modern homes with none of that being a possibility?

Wiring mistakes can and do happen.  I moved into my current home when it was 15 and I found half a dozen issues.   Do you have to check every outlet in every home?  Maybe not... but if you feel like you have an actual AC problem maybe don’t try to fix it with a conditioner first.   You also don't immediately have to go get a new panel with a dedicated line.  This post is about how homeowners should check their important outlets first, with an absolute minimum of spend. 

Make sure your outlet is wired correctly and has a working ground.  Then we can talk about power conditioners.   I do worry about back-stabbed outlets however.  Technically they are OK but I removed everyone I could find in my home. 

Having said all that, my HT system is fed by a Furman with a voltage regulator which gives me rock solid voltage regardless of the air conditioning, range or even most brown outs.  However, it cannot fix a host of other problems I checked for first.   

@wsrrsw 

- There seem to be like 6 versions of that which are identical except for the brand.  None of them are "laboratory grade" or anything but all super convenient.   Cheap, easy to use, you can leave them plugged in for days and monitor your AC, that alone makes them useful even if you have a nice multi-meter. 

In addition to the standard 3 light wiring checks which you can find from any hardware store electrical department these have two features I really like.  One is Voltage reading, two is the Neutral to earth voltage, which is important in assessing both neutral connectivity as well as voltage sagging under load.  Even if you get a bad one, worth  buying two.  

I wish I could find a higher end version from Klein or Fluke or something but so far I’ve not found one with the N-E reading. 

@erik_squires  Is the the One you recommend in your post? It’s on sale fir &12.58. 

@ditusa thanks for posting that PDF.

Power Conditioners do not solve any of these common problems:

See PDF here read pages 38 11 12 13

Mike

Good for you, @whart - Occasionally I still run into stories of homeowners who have a home built in the 1960's with Federal Pacific Stab-Lok breakers.   Owning an old home that's gone through several eras of electrical upgrades is a real challenge.  It doesn't even have to be as old as yours to see not just several generations of work but also short cuts taken. 

I'm a big advocate for doing a power audit of a single family residence starting at the meter (which the power company will pull so you can see if there is any corrosion at the contact points) and having the feed traced to the main service panel which can be inspected and checked for hot spots and arcing; how secondary service panels are wired; the condition of the receptacles as well as their polarity (which the cheap hand-helds can do) before spending money on black boxes. I prefer to use electricians who are qualified for commercial work -- I find they often have more experience with the sorts of demands that audiophiles impose (which may seem crazy to the uninitiated). Eric, you are right, not just in terms of basic safety, but many times, the issues that cause people to look for power solutions have their origin in old or questionable wiring. We've mostly owned very old houses, the previous one dated back to the 1780s with many additions and expansions over the course of a couple centuries. Many days were spent by the electrician tracing and removing/replacing old wiring. 

My present house is circa 1880 but was completely restored to museum quality standards, starting with a new foundation, circa 2004. We nonetheless did a thorough audit, installed dedicated lines on kitchen appliances that were not called for at the time of the 2004 renovation and all of this had nothing to do with the hi-fi sub-system, but gave us peace of mind. 

@erik_squires 

Wow. Although I do remember one flickering lights story recently… but that is the only one. 

Hey @atmasphere  - I specifically wrote this for those on the opposite end of the financial situation.  While yeah, it seems like many well-to-do audiophiles are able to and have spent money with an electrician to create custom AC solutions there are also those I read about here who try to avoid spending that money and try to fix actual AC  problems with a conditioner, or some other patch, like a new outlet, when the problems they describe are more serious. 

@ghdprentice - Yes, yes it is.  I’ve seen more than one thread her on A’gon start like that.  "My lights flicker a few times a day, especially if I run up the stairs... what kind of power conditioner should I get..."   In one such thread we convinced the OP to get an electrician who found their house neutral was bad. 

Not too long ago there was a poster who had current running through his interconnects.... I think that was a reversed L-N issue or something.  

Point is, peace of mind is cheap.   Better to test and know than to let things linger. 

Unfortunately it’s exactly because we so often discuss the dedicated line, if not dedicated meter/panel/line that we exclude the less well-off audiophile who takes matters into his own hands via a power conditioner or strip.   Having a safe and reliable outlet is something everyone should have, even if they can't afford the higher levels of AC customization. 

My experience is that direct lines and good quality power conditioners both make significant contributions to better sound quality. Both on the same order of magnitude. I have experience with three different homes and a half dozen good quality power conditioners (like Shunyata for instance). What you hear is always dependent on how good and resolving your audio system is. 

OP... "Lights flickering?  Feel a tingle when you touch your equipment (or washer or range)? "

That is a thing? Ignoring something like that? If it is my opinion of audiophiles goes down a few notches. 

Good idea to check outlets. They get flabby over time. 

It seems easy to convince other audiophiles that a dedicated A/C line will do wonders for sound as costs are minimal when compared to a high- end conditioner, or a new piece of equipment.

What you suggest is a way to determine (sort of) if your lines are causing your rig to sound less than optimal. As you mentioned, this is important for old homes that may have inferior cables, dirty lines, or subpar outlets.

But, what about those that live in modern homes with none of that being a possibility?

Is it even a sure thing that if I spend the cash for a dedicated line that I will be rewarded with a cleaner and crisper sound? 

I live in a 15 year old home and, far as I know, there is no guarantee that I can improve upon what is in place. As it is, I have upgraded my outlet and my the voltage remains steady on my Panamax surge suppressor (basic line conditioner).

So should I even bother? 

@erik_squires Totally FWIW Dept.:

Most of the people I encounter who are interesting in a power conditioner have already done their homework getting the AC up to code with new materials and often a 20A dedicated line. They want to see how far they can push it. I've never heard of anyone thinking a conditioner might be used as a band-aid. 

Most of the so-called 'conditioners' offered to high end audio are not; most seem to be glorified AC power strips, perhaps with some high frequency filtering on even a passive isolation transformer and so unable to clean up AC power of lower harmonics (of which the 5th is the most pesky) or regulate the output and so on. 

A real power conditioner has active circuitry. It will generate its own low distortion line frequency signal, usually synchronized with the AC line. It will then correct the AC line to minimize distortion and probably also regulate the AC line Voltage. Feedback is used to compare against the low distortion reference, so the output can be guaranteed low distortion right up to full current. 

If the distortion of the output is not listed in the specs, its a power strip rather than a conditioner. IOW a proper conditioner will reduce AC line distortion. 

The real conditioners I've seen are mostly older units. Apparently the commercial AC power conditioner market had the bottom drop out of it a long time ago- back in the 1980s.