Pffft. There's a discussion on this site about people who are spending $3000 for a box of dirt that plugs into their gear.
It's their prerogative.
Hell, I just spent $5,000 for a pair of output transformers for my latest project. Does that make me a bad person? |
Chayro,
Exactly!
High end audio is such a good example of free market freedom. If it's worth
it in your opinion you buy it . If it isn't worth it then you simply don't buy and
move on. I wouldn't spend $40,000. for an audio component but have
absolutely no problem with those who do, why on earth would I? I don't
agree with calling this level of spending insanity either, why is it insane? Is
it insane to have a 10, 000 SF. home with 40 ft boat docked out back on
your waterfront property? Or is 5, 000 SF.home with a 25 ft boat the line that
separates sane from insane?
I'd only have a major issue if we were forced to purchase something we
didn't want and aren't given any choice to say no. That's insanity in my
opinion. As long as we as individuals get to make the call for ourselves I'm
perfectly fine with people deciding themselves . We are adults after all. |
It's worth it if you can hear it and you can afford it. It you can't hear it, you're a fool if you buy it. You're also a fool if you assume nobody else can hear it because you can't. |
"This hobby is ripe with insanity, why ask why???"
Isn't that a good reason, to cut through the insanity and get to what really matters and why?
Otherwise these forums become riper ground for charlatans and other forms of deception. Plenty of that to go around these days. Audio ain't so special, just more fertile grounds than most.
Asking questions and discussing the answers is always a big part of the learning process. The truth will always speak for itself one way or another over time. |
This thread is just like one of those "Why all of the XYZ's for sale?" threads.
Why pick on $10,000 power conditioners? Why not ask about $40,000 speaker cables? How about $15,000 phono cartridges? $25,000 interconnects? $7,000,000 speakers? $650,000 amplifiers?
Get the point??? This hobby is ripe with insanity, why ask why??? |
I'm with Charles1dad on this.
I am utterly perplexed at the selective outrage about how OTHER people spend their money. It's as pointless as the audio snobs who look down their noses at people with "lesser" equipment. I wonder whether people would keep up these postings if they knew how little the big spenders and the manufacturers of audio jewelry care about what others think. Ranting about his is like spitting in the wind. You just wind up all wet and pissed for nothing.
Another thing that gets lost in all of this are all the great audio bargains you could be talking about. (There are many, like the phenomenal $90 Pioneer speakers designed by the creator of the mega expensive TAD C-1's) But, instead, we'll just keep railing about the worst aspects of our hobby. Really attractive. Bravo. |
"its all about elementary economics." Naaah - it's really more about the size of one's e-penis. And as far as your "what the market will bare", even I ain't goin' there. |
Onhwy61,
The answer is a resounding yes. You can't disregard the fact that value of these luxury items are relative and unquestionably subjective. For example a particular woman of means and a certain level ofhigh fashion but little or no interest in audio would choose opposite of you in this case. She'd fine the Magico an utter waste of money for their cost just as others would feel the same in regards to the purse she cherishes. How can one dictate value and worth for another person? You cannot, it's strictly individual, as it should be. |
What someone can do with their money does not mean every expenditure is prudent or wise.
Rather than compare a automobile to a loudspeakers, change it to a loudspeaker vs. a woman's handbag. A $40,000 purse compared to an equivalently priced Magico loudspeaker. Is it my lack of knowledge about the intricacies of high end purses that makes me think the Magico is a better value? |
The premise of the posting is a relevant and valid one. $10K is a lot of money there is no question about it. and if we are talking about a single box with some outlets in it, that is certainly a questionable purchase. Unless of course in contains a unique and miraculous technology that takes an audio system's performance to unheard-of levels of realism, that 9 out of 10 people can immediately agree they hear.
i am guilty of having bought a $5000 amplifier, but it did things in my own home i never thought possible before. instruments had a texture and a palpable presence that you had to hear for yourself. Only then would you understand why in the world i would spend so much of my income on "one piece" of equipment.
years later i replaced a $5K speaker with a $14K speaker. the improvement was incredible, but i realized i had crossed a number of lines at that point. I still feel guilty at times with all of the poor and needy people on the planet, when i look at all the "stuff" i "need" to listen to an album. My only defense is that i took my time and i do not get tired of my amplifiers every 6 months, my speakers every year, etc. and the emotion the musicians and singers feel comes across in the most beautiful manner i could want when i sit down to listen.
10K for a power conditioner? is it ESSENTIAL in order to hear the music flow from a well-advanced set of components? or is it just one of hundreds of accessories manufacturers are putting out there to get some market share?
P.S.- there is NO substitute in this hobby for a well engineered CD or LP.
trying to squeeze great sound out of a mediocre disc is like eating steak-flavored rice cakes. |
its all about elementary economics.
the value in use = the value in exchange is the necessary condition for a transaction. people attach subjective valuation for any material object. the estimated value is subjective and applies to all luxury goods.
there is no absolute value for any luxury good. it is based upon what the market will bare--the law of supply and demand applies in some cases as well.
how do you estimate what a power conditioner is worth to the buyer ? |
How each of us spends our money is of course nobody elseÂs business. However, surely the purpose of this forum is to share experiences/knowledge? In this case, can anyone justify spending $10k on a power conditioner? Personally, I have no idea. All I know for certain is many claims about the superiority of one interconnect over another (often costing many $k) or regular thick copper speaker cables over ones made of exotic materials and complex construction technique are often just over-inflated marketing hype. I suspect expensive power conditioners are just the same. I know at one time Krell would not endorse the use of after-market power conditioners for their products; I wonder why?
I once went through a phase of auditioning some expensive interconnects; could I tell the difference versus simple well-made interconnects? No!
My stereo system is comprised of a MacBook Air (2012 MY running OSX 10.8.3) with Audirvana Plus, via USB to a MF V-Link 24/96 USB to S/PDIF converter, feeding, via a Toslink cable, a Krell HTS 7.1 (DAC and volume control) into a Krell KSA-250 power amp and B&W N801 speakers. I could not be happier, OK I exaggerate somewhat, if money were no object I am sure some changes would be made!
The point of my ranting is; would my system sound any better with the addition of a $10k power conditioner? I very much doubt it. However, If anyone wants to lend me their $10k power conditioner I would be more than happy to experiment and report back. |
We are all in this hobby because of (1) a love of fine music or (2) a love of fine equipment, or both!!!
Cost is relative, The more we experiment with new and different equipment the more our perception changes as to value verses cost. I have experienced expensive interconnects, power cords and conditioners that can make quite a difference in a given system but may be overkill in another. There is a saying in audio.... IT IS ALL SYSTEM DEPENDENT!!! |
To answer the OPS original question, for home use (not larger scale commercial applications), I doubt there is any real, in terms of being quantifiable, need to spend 10K to fix ones power.
But I can't prove it, and I'm sure there is someone out there with a big thirsty power amp or amps, power quality issues, the needed budget, and bothered enough by the problem as perceived, who would disagree with me. If done right, which might be somewhat costly, I would expect results to be no worse than before, at a minimum....an expensive (audio) insurance policy per se, that provides peace of mind at a minimum. How do you put a price on that?
Of course, one might argue that one (ie the audiophile) is a little nuts in the first place to worry so much about such things, but that is another story for another conversation.
I will be the first to admit that I have overspent most likely on audio gear in the past mostly as an insurance policy against inferior performance so as not to cut any corners. |
Onhwy61,
You miss the" point" the entire context of the OP is based on the premise of cost/value of a product and what others are comfortable spending. The analogy of BMW vs Magico speaker doesn't change the original assumption. The worth of either of these two items will be determined by knowledge and familiarity with them by who's doing the judging. I'd say far fewer of the general population are aware of high end audio products so how could they have any meaningful sense of relative value when comparing to an automobile. Value is a combination knowledge of the product,desirability and functionality. At the end of the day it remins what someone wants to do with "their" money. I've never understood why is this such
an issue |
Onh,
Yes, I read that cnn website article just yesterday. Hard to argue with most of it.
Regarding home audio, the fortunate reality of home audio as it has always been pretty much is "shades of grey" in terms of buying options, from the cheapest speakers at the local dollar store to the grandest and most expensive stuff out there to be bought for home use today.
The other thing that will never change is the role that knowledge and common sense plays in making buying decisions under the assumption that the reality is except for the small % of mega rich perhaps, the options availble to all of us are limited. |
Arguments along the lines of "its your money, spend it as you wish" miss the point. As a political argument in a liberal/democratic society it has a firm basis, but does it really justify extremely expensive power conditioners? For a consumer the real question is does the extremely expensive unit sound better than the merely expensive unit? And even if it does sound better, is it worth the added cost? It's a legitimate question.
A few days ago there was a story on the CNN website about the demise of the stereo system. Its narrative was that young people (college and just graduated) do not own stereo systems. They listen to music via computer and iPad/headphones. The article contrasts that to a decade ago when young people had loudspeakers, receivers, CD players, etc. In passing the article mentions that stereo system are still alive in home theater and the ultra-expensive audiophile arenas.
As audiophiles why can't we admit that high prices and the perception of low value is a serious barrier to the growth of the audiophile world? Why are we so accepting of absurdly priced products? My use of the word "absurd" implies a value judgement. Of course, but it is a widely held judgement. As a thought experiment, stand in the center of any major city and place side by side a BMW 6 series sedan and an equivalently priced Magico loudspeaker and ask people which is the better value for the money? |
Agree with Charles things like this is nobody's business really. But we do disclose such private matters here at our own discretion, so that's a personal choice as well.
Personally, would I like to have the discretionary spending ability to afford a 10K power conditioner? Absolutely. But personally I doubt I would even if I could. |
This topic is recurrent, someone is offended and critical of how another adult chooses to spend their own disposable income. We all set our individual limits which vary greatly among us. If I find an item too expensive I don't buy it. You could apply this argument to any hobby or pastime, automobiles, vacations, art work, clothing, jewelry etc. You can assemble a satisfying audio system at many price levels. It's up to each person to determine what that level is. Who else's business is it anyway? |
Everyone needs to spend money on things like food, shelter, and health care.
Most of the rest is optional, including power conditioners.
Anyone can spend on whatever they like, including charity, although being charitable might not be considered optional as well to many. |
This is like saying that one needs a Rolex for time keeping.
It's a lot of "because one can" in there, in my opinion. |
I do not believe in $10,000 power conditioners. I do believe in a person's right to spend their own money on a $10,000 power conditioner.
A fool and his money... |
Many things happen: Would you spend $10k on dress shirt? How about $7k LV purse for your woman? |
You think that's bad, speakers for $250,000 are behind door number 2.
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