Polls are showing 70% + of people want everyone in congress tossed out these days, except their own congressperson, 40% still like them. Same true about their lawyers. Prime candidates for 10K power conditioners as well, maybe? :^) |
anytime a question begins with "does anyone need....." it is a rhetorical question. there is no definitive answer to such a question |
Jmcgrogan2,
+++++1
Thanks for putting a cap on this. Now, back to music!! |
10-10-13: Taters
Jmcgrogan2, Thinking and doing are two separate things.
Well then, maybe if you stop thinking and start doing you will have money to burn too. ;) |
We all have limited time to burn. Just gotta get ones priorities in order to know how to best spend it. |
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Jmcgrogan2, Thinking and doing are two separate things. |
And the Oscar for best comeback goes to Jmcgrogan2 :-) |
10-08-13: Taters
I really think that someone that has 10k to buy a power conditioner has money to burn. One could also say that someone who can spend as much time thinking about this topic has plenty of time to burn. |
>>As much as I like audio I'm not going to spend 10k on power conditioning
Sure, you in your current situation.
A couple years ago, I could not even image to spend a couple grand for a power cord and here I am.
If you can not hear the difference, then do not buy it but let others behave what they like, not what you like us / them to be.
Power conditioning, unlike an amp or CDP or anything more visible, does not sell for its glitter but for its functionality. |
Vhiner, If you want to drop 10k on a power conditioner knock yourself out. |
Taters, I'd say perhaps their foolish children, but not them. If I were salesman I'd certainly look for early 20's child and brainwash. It's much easier than same to 60 year old established millionaire. |
Taters,
I certainly have no interest in convincing you to buy anything but you posted a question that implies others *shouldn't* buy such things or that something is wrong with them if they do. And you seem intent upon persuading others to adopt your point of view.
That's your right but it seems odd to be so concerned with the choices others make. You'll notice that no one here is calling your choice *not* to use a power conditioner misguided. No one is implying that you are too deaf to hear the difference. Why not refrain from judging the choices of others? I say "live and let live." |
Tony,
In no way, did I think you and I are in any disagreement. I was reacting to
the comments by others that seem to obsessively focus on cost as a
measure of value and common sense. Sorry about the confusion. |
Hi Vhiner, I hope my reply didn't come across like that. Everyone has a hobby and interests. How much one commits of their resources to that hobby, be it 1% or 100%, is a personal decision. The only relavance cost has for a component is that it is an obstacle to be overcome in acheiving one's goals.
It shouldn't matter if a person spends $1k or $100k on a hifi. This community should respect the accomplishment made towards the goal of reproducing sound faithfully and accuratly. We should not judge on cost. Now, if a person spends $100k on a hifi just to listen to Country music, then they should be ridiculed to the point of exhaustion. (Just kidding. :0) Some of my best friends like Country music). |
I find all this "how dare they" froth about an expensive power conditioner odd in a world filled with $50k amplifiers and $90k speakers. When you haven't ever heard an expensive power conditioner in your own system and when you don't understand what they do, it's kind of hard to judge its value or lack thereof.
I know one thing; my $5k power conditioner is nearly equal to my $8500 amplifier in what it delivers..because they are *both* very good at handling the electricity that is vital to the reproduction of all recorded sound. Electricity and its proper delivery are fundamentally important if one wants to achieve more life-like sound reproduction. A good power conditioner aids and improves that delivery. Anyone can hear it if given the chance. Exactly how much that improvement is "worth" is up to each individual and cannot be empirically established by debate. |
As much as I like audio I'm not going to spend 10k on power conditioning. I've bought pre-owned power conditioners off Audiogon in the past and sold them within a month. I really think that someone that has 10k to buy a power conditioner has money to burn. |
It was a tongue in cheek comment. Would a person willing to spend 1000x the normal price for a fuse be the sort of person to spend $10k on a power conditioner- if they had the means?
My point is, wealth doesn't automatically correlate to having an expensive hifi. It's a hobby that draws those interested in music and the reproduction of music. Some of us will use all means at our disposal to get to the next level. |
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A 50.00 fuse is a long way from a 10k power conditioner. |
Perhaps those obsessive enough to buy $50 fuses would buy $10k Power Conditioners if they had the means. |
czarievy, So if millionaires aren't buying 10k power conditioners than who is? |
Tonywinsc,
I hear you. Some of my cheapest tweaks have been the most rewarding. I also help friends upgrade and finding good deals for someone else is plenty of fun. |
Millionaire??? Oh gimme break! Most of them will count every penny and ending up with some simple Belkin or Tripplight for their Dennon AVR/sound bar entertainment system.
That's one of the tricky part of being a millionaire. |
btw- I hit the double nickel this year. I'm trying to focus on retiring in the next half decade or so. Because of that, I am trying to live by the axiom, "be happy with what you got"- as in save, not spend. $10k power conditioners and $70k cars are not in my near future plans. The hardest part is reading about someone's new preamp, amp or turntable and not jumping on board the upgrade train. What I have found to compensate is making small tweaks to my system. I have become intimately familiar with my system since I have kept all of my components for a good while. So the smallest changes are very noticeable to me. |
Tonywinsc,
Good story. The world would be a more peaceful place if we ALL admitted the varied and sometimes irrational motivations behind our decisions. I'm glad you can enjoy your "shallow" decision as much as I do mine! LOL |
Vhiner, you made a good point. You don't perceive a difference between your old cheap cars and your friends $70k cars. You seem to be a practical person, not buying mid-priced cars just to have them and yet you see value in your $5k power conditioner. I'm certain many would take exception to your comment about cars when some are sensitive even to a type of shock absorber or brake pad. And $70k for a car is not so expensive these days. A new Chevy P/U loaded, stickers close to that now. The motivations for what we do are very complex and sometimes we don't understand ourselves why we do things. I'll admit something here. I bought my current CD player based on brand just so it would match my preamp. I knew it would sound good; but I skipped right over my obsessive research and comparison process when I made the purchase. Luckily, I have been very happy with it; but the me of 10 or 15 years ago would never have settled for brand or looks first over sound. Does that make me a shallow person now? I think we all let how a component looks as well as sound affect our decision- even if it goes the other way to make sure it is as ugly or industrial looking as it can be. |
Need has nothing to do with. People buy what they want. All of our homes are filled with things we don't "need" |
Vhiner, nice! There's no substitute for good reasoning and common sense. |
I'd like to propose that making assumptions about decisions other people
make and then self-righteously condemning them is a pretty sketchy
practice.
For example, my wife and I own two cars that are more than 12 years old.
They get good mileage, look like crap, but get us from point A to point B.
We are quite happy doing this. We need nothing more. We have friends
who drive $70,000 cars. We don't feel morally superior to them nor do we
shame them for enjoying the heck out of those cars. Those cars don't seem
to drive much better than ours, but our friends clearly love being in them.
The companies who make those expensive vehicles employ a lot of good
folks. One day I might buy one of their cars when they get much older
because
they are very well made and are sure to last many years.
Finally, while my wife and I drive our "economically responsible"
cars that are barely worth $3,000 together, we also spend dozens of hours
a week enjoying the benefits of our $5000 power conditioner in the family
room. It's our choice and we are very comfortable with it. I couldn't care
less what anyone else thinks of our choice, but it disturbs me to think that
someone else might miss all this fun because they are embarrassed or led
away from it by the ignorant assumptions of others who haven't even heard
or experienced what they're condemning.
And now back to your regularly scheduled programming. ;-) |
Taters, Ceteris paribus! I assumed people would understand all things being equal was implicit. However you make a valid point. Thanks. |
Lots of audio things I would like to be able to spend even way more than 10K on. Why? Mostly just because its cool stuff to own, look at and play with. Might even sound better, but don't really care.
List includes:
1) Lots of expensive tube gear from ARC, VAC, others just because I think tubes are way cool
2) esoteric speaker designs like German Physiks, mbl, and maybe even some other cool looking, high performing but less esoteric designs as well.
3) the fastest and best ultrasonic record cleaner I could find so I don;t have to manually clean my records when needed.
4) Some really cool looking stands and shelving to put stuff on
5) The best DCS digital audio gear money can afford
6) various really expensive phono carts just to hear what they might sound like. Plus the tables and arms needed to make it happen.
However, my audio budget is already mostly tapped out and things are sounding pretty good as I want them to already, so I guess I will be spending my money elsewhere on teh more mundane things needed.
Oh, yeah, I forgot to mention that no worries power conditioning unit that can only help make things sound even better, whatever that is or however much it might end up costing.
Admit it, so called audiophiles! How often is better sound REALLY the only reason we buy the stuff we do? I am much more than just an "audiophile". "At least, I think I must be"! |
the issue is the intrinsic value of material things.
there is no way to calculate or determine the worth of an inanimate object/ |
noromance, You say 10k is nothing to a guy making a million a year. If you make a million after taxes you have about 600k. If your living in a fancy house and driving luxury cars and have a wife and a couple of kids 10k is still a lot of money. A guy making 100k and not married with a family or living large can more easily afford to spend 10k than the millionaire with high overhead. |
Jmcgrogan2, I agree but I didn't want to take the discussion to a direct discussion of politics.
Some others in this thread recognize that large parts of high end audio have become luxury goods and priced accordingly. That hasn't always been the case. The classic tubed McIntosh equipment were mass market products. Same for the Quad ESLs, Linn turntables, Revox R2R or Shure cartridges. They weren't cheap, but they did offer the best performance for their time.
On a side note, what does it matter to anyone else if you build a 40,000 SF house with twenty car garage and helicopter pad? In theory it shouldn't matter, but if everybody in China and India did it at the same time the Earth would be stripped bare of it's forest and surface fresh water depleted. |
$10k conditioners are not always luxury items. they may be necessary, but not for home audio. |
Luxury items are what they are. Some beter values than others. No different than the rest in this respect. What's there to debate? Specific items maybe. Bigger stakes though...more feelings to get hurt maybe, so why bother? Generalizations won't get us far. We all covet something. Why not a 10k power conditioner? Whether one "needs" it or not is a different story. What luxury items are there that are "needed"? I can't think of any. That sort of goes with the definition of a luxury item. Its not needed, just wanted perhaps. |
10-02-13: Onhwy61
All your arguments about personal choice and liberty are beside the point. I don't think anybody is advocating not allowing people to buy what they want. What I question is whether the proliferation of ultra expensive products is good for the long term health of the audiophile world? Actually, this question should be asked of our entire economy, not just the audiophile world, since the audiophile world is simply following in the footsteps of the economy as a whole. Is it healthy for us as a society to have shrunk our middle class and moved the bulk of our money to the few at the top? This issue goes far beyond audio, luxury car sales are up 10 fold in the past 30 years. The same can be said about just about any luxury item. We have turned into a society of haves and have nots. How does that bode for the long term health of our economic system as a whole? |
I remember about 15 years ago, looking at a report on the first $1000 interconnect I had seen. First thought was, I did'nt think you could make a cable you could dream of asking that price for. The second was, what sort of idiot would spend that sort of money.
Well all I have to do is look in the mirror today and yes, those expensive cables do make a difference. The same for power conditioning. I hav'nt spent anywhere near $10000, but a decent conditioner and power cords, certainly make a real difference. My problem is auditioning them. I find it quite difficult to do A/B comparisons on conditioners, they take so long to settle in and are dependent on the cords you use.
So if you have a $150000 system, I don't, you can argue it is worth spending that sort of cash. Justified? as others have said, it is none of my business how anyone else spends their own money |
Remember the rich have much more money than you can even imagine. $10k to someone making $1m a year is like someone making $50k spending $500. |
I think that the analogy of the BMW vs. the speakers is a valid one. If you consider the technology, parts count, ease of manufacture, etc. there is no doubt that the BMW has a much higher value per dollar spent.
Certainly how one spends one's money is a personal decision for one to make based upon the size of their wallet and their current economic circumstances.
But I think it is absurd to try and justify the purchase of a $10k power conditioner as a high-value proposition. If you really are in search of absolutely clean power for your system, you would be better-served by installing some solar collectors mated to a huge battery.
This serve two purposes - it takes you off the grid and makes use of the "free" energy beamed to our planet each day by the sun and it will also remove all of the power polluting "noise" that occurs when one is using power from the grid.
Also, unless the OP already has a professionally-designed and installed AV room, he is throwing money into his system at the wrong point. Remember, the speakers and the room interact quite significantly and a well-treated room will impart much better sonics than one that is un-treated...
-RW- |
I had the opportunity to visit the 1989 CES in Chicago. It is one of the highpoints of my life. (If that sounds tragic, I also have been inside The Great Pyramid and that counts as just a little higher) Back then, the Hifi show was in the hotel across the street and I got to spend the day there with my buddy. A couple of the set-ups in the hotel were some of the best sounding rigs I have ever heard. I wish I had taken notes on what equipment was used. I didn't because I couldn't afford it back then. I saw a lot and much of it was snakeoil; but some was eye opening. I sneered at all of the exotic and expensive cables back then; but today I have them in my system. I try to keep an open mind but not be naive. I think the key is to be a smart shopper. $10k doesn't seem like a good value for a power conditioner. For much less than that you could hook up a motor coupled to an alternator and generate your own dedicated clean power to your Hifi rig- with a big filter capacitor to boot.
I believe good sound can still be had for a reasonable price. I get to hear some of the SOTA high end gear now and then and I can still go home and enjoy my humble rig. |
"What I question is whether the proliferation of ultra expensive products is good for the long term health of the audiophile world?"
I have no problems with the prices specifically in that companies have to make a decent profit to stay in business, but I think there is a lot of BS that often goes into it, and too much BS is probably not good for long term health of anything. Gotta at least try to cut through the BS. I think its that simple. |
All your arguments about personal choice and liberty are beside the point. I don't think anybody is advocating not allowing people to buy what they want. What I question is whether the proliferation of ultra expensive products is good for the long term health of the audiophile world? The increasing cost of high end equipment is a very real barrier to people entering and/or pursuing the audiophile lifestyle. The fact that a few people are better off because of this trend is not, IMO, a satisfactory response. There was a time when middle class professional types could actually afford to purchase state of the art music reproduction systems. The same cannot be said today. As a group are we better off? |
"Whether someone wants to spend $10K on a power conditioner, gold plated toilet seat, or diamond studded dog collar, why does it matter to you? Who are you to think that it's your business to "fix" them?"
Well, I don't know how to fix those in particular, so that settles that. :^) Can't speak for others though. I'm only one participant. |
10-01-13: Mapman
Isn't that a good reason, to cut through the insanity and get to what really matters and why? Who are you to determine what really matters and why? Live and let live. If folks want to get into a pissing contest, or are OCD challenged, what business is it of yours? Whether someone wants to spend $10K on a power conditioner, gold plated toilet seat, or diamond studded dog collar, why does it matter to you? Who are you to think that it's your business to "fix" them? |
Got Audience 6TSSD wonderful unit big upgrade . |
Hifimaniac, What you just mentioned makes a lot more sense than some fancy looking boxes with some snake oil science. |
The answer is NO! I saw and heard the solution to AC Power issues and the web site is: controlledpower.com A friend installed a 400lb isolation transformer (very small footprint by the way) from this company who builds then for the computer industry and it is amazing and is much cheaper than a $10k power conditioner filled with a bunch of filters. This thing installed cost him around $4500 and he will never have to worry about power surges, spikes, sags, etc in his power delivery or concern of equipment ever being damaged. He had an electrician run a 220v to this unit; it then converts to 120v and send power to his subpanel with his circuit breakers controlling the 20amp dedicated lines running to the AC outlets powering his top of the line Dartzeel pre and mono blocks. Because the transformer is in the room near his subpanel there is absolutely no noise. This is the answer to all our needs if we are in homes where this can be done. You will hear the difference; I did. I have heard this system prior to this upgrade and this was worth every penny. |
