It seems like all the high-end dealers I have bought from or talked to think that Mcintosh is living on it's past reputation. The 2 stores that carry it locally are more mid-fi stores than high-end. I have a friend that swears by it but he hasn't listened to his Mcintosh in over 2 years. What do you think?
Audia, points well taken...but test data as an ultimate indication of musicality? Plenty of gear measures well and still manages to fall short of accurate fidelity. Stepping back for a minute, I believe I mentioned that I thought well of the Mac stuff...I just don't feel it is all that great compared to other competitive products. Until you hear a bunch of other equipment over time under various circumstances, it is hard to understand what you are missing! All in all, synergy does go along way toward long term happiness. My time with the Mac gear was pleasurable and engaging for the most part. Over time however, I felt that recordings I new well had been served better via other amp/pre-amp combinations I have owned. Personal taste is everything..so...enjoy the amps your with...do do do do do do do do, do do do do do do do...do do do, do do do! (CSNY)
Dave_b "Anyone who has read Stereophile for more than a few years understands the relationships that are made between reviewers and companies."
I agree with you 100%. I've been subscribing to Stereophile for more than 15 years. That's why I made the statement, "I don't believe in magazine reviewer opinions as much as the next guy. I also stated, "I do believe in actual test numbers taken from Stereophile Magazine test reviews." Both MC501s and the C200 pre tested with excellent close to the highest state of the art levels of performance. Do you believe reviewers have anything to gain by reporting erroneous test data? It's illegal to publish incorrect data. Why would they put their careers on the line?
I also noticed my Dunlavy SC-IVAs pushing the famous Mac blue meters close to the far right. At that level I am pushing the volume level of the C200 pre to 75% - 80% of it's capacity. Also, if you remember the last two MC501s meter increments at the far right end of the scale, go from 50 to 500 watts. Even at extreme musical peaks the meters have never hit the 500 watt level. They mostly stay halfway in between 50 and 500 watts. I have a fairly large dedicated listening room that requires high volume/decibel levels. The MC501s do just fine; like I said before they are the best I've heard as far as what I have owned.
This forum is considered a debate where people banter back and forth with their opinions hopefully based on sound experience and judgement. Your experiences are based on personal system set-ups including your own listening room, main source components and various other factors.
Nobody is saying, at least I'm not, that your opinions or observations are wrong, or you don't know what you are talking about. It's just that there are so many variables that dictate a systems performance. Your particular set-up incorporating McIntosh components or listening room geometry just might have not been to the optimum conditions or synergies that McIntosh components excel in.
Lest some of you gentlemen forget, I owned the MC501's and C46 preamp and a C2200 tube pre which was returned quickly! Both my Totem Winds and Dynaudio C4's bled the amps dry..meters were full tilt without pushing the amps very hard. Autoformers..new technology? I think not folks. Build quality is good..parts are fine but not exceptional and musicality is good to better than average (marginaly). At it's price point it is good value gear..nothing wrong with that, it's just not worth cult status! In particular, transparency was not state of the art. Bass was uniquely soft and less forceful than most amp/preamp combos available. Mids were full and pleasant..ripe even (a good thing). Highs were nice, not harsh nor dull, but not as complex and liquid as others. Overall, good gear at a fair price. Anyone who has read Stereophile for more than a few years understands the relationships that are made between reviewers and companies. It is illuminating to re-read reviews of gear one has owned, especially when it has been alot of gear...the small points are key elements of a design (inevitably negative in nature)and the large sweeping praise is conveniently vague enough to attract as many potential buyers as possible (in case you still believe in the tooth fairy). Money makes the audio world go around..world go around! So, like I said before..enjoy your stuff, it's just fine:)
Obviously McIntosh must be doing something right. They have been in business since 1949 and they seem to hold a pretty good resale value. I have had several pieces and can say I will probably buy more. I know that there is better out there at the same price point, but they don't have the track record. It seems that every time I see a thread on Mc that someone can always bash them. Maybe it's that old "blow your candle out and mine will burn brighter" syndrome. I am sure that someone will trash my reply here but that is their need being fullfilled. McIntosh is a good company building great products and offering exceptional service. As an audio equipment owner what more can I want?
I presently own Mac's MC501 and their C200 pre driving Dunlavy's SC-IVAs. My previous owned set-ups included Bryston, Classe C200, and a BAT VK 500. I have heard multiple Mark Levinson and Krell systems.
McIntosh clearly smoked my previous Bryston, Classe, and BAT systems. Compared to the Levinson and Krell systems I believe they are easily equal to and probably slightly better in overall performance.
Whether or not anybody out there is a Stereophile Magazine fan; they voted the MC501 amplifier of the year for 2004. Stereophile also reviewed it as extremely close in performance to Halcro's DM58 amp which is considered by many to be the very best in solid state.
I don't believe in magazine reviewer opinions as much as the next guy. But I do believe in actual test numbers taken from Stereophile Magazine. The MC501 tested very well, see for yourself on the archived test results at stereophile.com. They also reviewed and tested the C200 pre with similar excellent test results.
Dbarger, Agree with you. Don't understand how someone could say "nothing innovative". Not musical, I can understand, as that's just their opinion and Mac may not be to their taste. It is to mine.
To the thread starter: Yeah, some of true audiophiles own Mac, some don't. Which ones own it? Why the ones that find it musical. As far as mid-fi stores selling it, Mac makes a wide range of equipment. If a store could sell Mac's $60,000 amps it would, but their customer base should dictate what they stock the most of. Krell has some expensive stuff, also their lesser KAV line. Mark Levinson called their lesser line Proceed. At least Mac doesn't call it something like "Mini-Mac".
09-10-07: Dave_b Nothing innovative about Mac gear, nor is it tremendously musical. In fact it sounds like very goo old class B electronics..not particularly exceptional in any area, nor a total disaster in any either..just OK!
Absolutely NOT the case. You don't consider transformer coupling the transistors to keep them in their peak operating range innovative? Who else does it? Very musical also. Hopefully someday you will find some pieces you like as well long term as most Mac owners do. Good luck with that. BTW, I am not a dealer, just an music lover with an recently opened mind.
I don't know any true audiophiles. My dad bought a McIntosh amp in 1974 and boasted to me at the time that it was built like a "brick sh** house". He is 90 years old now and his Mac is still going strong and sounding good after 33 years. Fast forward to 2007, and I recently listened to an all Mac setup powered by a MC 275 tube amp played through some Vienna Acoustic floor standers and they sounded great. I also listened to an old Harry Belefonte LP played through a Mac MC501 and room filling Magenpans, and it was wonderful, every bit as good as Classe, Pass Laboratories or Edge amps I have heard recently.
I do not consider myself an apologist for McIntosh, and don't own any of their equipment personally. My limited experience is that their gear lasts a long time and the current editions sound very good indeed.
I wouldn't call your foray into solid state amps comprehensive in any sense. Also, the Mac testimonial seems dealeresque Dbarger. But, whatever floats your boat..enjoy!
I have been on a long search for a solid state amp I could live with, and bought (used) ML 27.5, Ayre V5xe, Pass x-250, Nuforce, and other top contenders to replace my ARC VT-200 and VT 100 mk3 in the summer months. None of the solid state amps could compete, UNTIL I bought an MC402 Mac amp. It is definitely the finest amp I have heard, in musicality, detail, transparency, nuance, etc. I am using it with my Ref 3 into Quads, Thiels, or Magnepans. I had always considered McIntosh to be boutique gear for folks with money but no ears. But I had never really listened to it. I did try the Mc 275 tubed piece, and did not feel it was any better than my ARC amps, but the 402 is better in every way. It literally rocked my known audio world! I mean, transformer coupled transistors? You bet it works! Try a 402 at home and see what you think.
If someone wants to become audiophile & the only thing stopping you is a fact that you don't own McIntosh gear - I will gladly sell you my amp. so you can become one.
THE EASIEST WAY TO BECOME A TRUTH AUDIOPHILE !!!!!!!!
i own a mac 275 amp. it is not a particular tube-like sounding amp. it is an amp many audiophiles would like if they took the time to listen to it.
i intend to sell it within a month.
Good luck - it seems Mcintosh in no longer an audio fashion statement (according to some views on this thread)....better dig those bell bottom jeans out of the cupboard too.....got to keep up with the Jones'!
My journey in the listening chair has been ear opening to say the least. One thing stands out however from the sea of gear...class A designs sound more natural and have greater presence i.e...older Krell, KAV Krell and Evolution Krell (not evo). Tubes can be pleasing but give me just a little to much frequency extreme anomalies and a reduced sense of presence or tension. Mac is one of many solid state/tube manufacturers that make reliable good sounding gear, and that's ok. Mac can be warm, full and reasonably able to convey the essence of the music..it just doesn't give you goose bumps! I believe high end audio hit it's peak in the mid 90's and is being gradually dismantled in favor of ergonomics, current trends and alternative technologies. When I was growing up on vinyl and Bozak speakers, everything sounded amazingly full, dynamic and tonaly correct. My current rig gives me the same feeling on even redbook. Whatever you own, enjoy it and let each find their own yesterday.
I addressed this above: "...there is an inverse relationship between name recognition/availability and exclusivity. As a brand becomes more widely known it begins to lose it's cache among the cognoscenti."
If you think about it, McIntosh is one of the oldest audio electronics brands still in production. Marantz sold out in the 1970's and most of the other original "audiophile" brands from the Mc era are long since gone. They fulfill the above truth about high-end products in a way that few others can.
I have no horse in the McIntosh race - I don't own any of their equipment but have always had great respect for the company.
No, true audiophiles listen to their gear while McIntosh owners listen to music. Ha! cliched response I know, but why does McIntosh always suffer this crap?
I agree reviewers are mostly entertainers..merely mentioned a couple of the senior more honest ones as an aside, not to be taken as an indication of my audio religion. Synergy of components and an ear for live music to guide oneself is important...no ear, then no reference point! As I mentioned, I've gone with a lesser system because I've found it more musical...not for brand or dollar snob value. DIY is probably great fun if so inclined. All the stuff I've owned was great stuff, but my need for musical satisfaction took me full circle..I am happy with less becauase sometimes less IS more!!
Sounds the the original poster is chasing a name brand every audiophile will applause to. Sorry that Mac in audio is not the same Mac as Iphone or Ipod. It is hard to define a "true audiophile" since everyone can have their own opinion about who should/shouldn't consider an audiophile. If you really passion about something then price and name brand doesn't matter. This is where DIY comes into play. If you go to the diyaudio forum then they wouldn't think any commercial product can be any good. I also owned Mac and heard Jadis and used krell and ML and PASS. Sure I have tried hundreds of cables before as well ( some cost up to 5K.) In the end, it is not how much you spend or which brand is the best. It is what goes into your ear that matters. Is Mac gear make you a geek or an audiophile? ( you became audio fools if your ear is based on name brand ) No. It is how things sound to you and not the wallet. A true audiophile owns good sense of what sounds good and doesn't care about meter measurements.
Brand is for the fashion conscious. I don't think you have to be fashionable to be a true audiophile although if you are very fashion conscious and shun Mcintosh because it no longer carries an aura of exclusivity....more fool you!
I have owned alot and I calls 'em as I sees 'em! In retrospect, Mac was at least warm and friendly sounding. When I spout off it's from passion, experience and an absolute perspective..don't take it to heart. Even though my Krell Evo and ARC Reference stuff didn't deliver, I do love the Krell KAV/Res 2 combo..read Colloms or Harley?...they even had to mention the 400xi as superior in some respects to the $50k stuff! See my 400xi review for more insight into my twisted brain (:
Dave, after following your threads for a while it seems you change equipment alot... and top dollar stuff too. I would be hard pressed to find many Mac products that cost as much as the new and improved again MIT 2.2 speaker cable you use. That could influence your comment about Mcintosh which is only your opinion and IMO is a ridiculous statement.
Are there any hi-fi stores amoung this list of Southern Cal. audio/video shops? Maybe all but 1 are (what you consider) mid-fi? In your initial post, you only mentioned McIntosh being carried by 2 (what you consider) mid-fi shops, but admit in your next post that there is (what you consider) 1 hi-fi store that carries Mc gear, with a disclaimer it is just because of the Asian clientele.
Taters, it is your intent that I really question by posting this thread in the first place. If you don't like McIntosh for whatever reason, that is fine. But like it or not, McIntosh is one of the most loved and respected lines of gear in the world.
As far as Shelleys Audio and Audio Concepts, to me them carrying McIntosh makes them a Hi-Fi store that carries brands to satisfy a wide range of audio/video customers. Sounds like a reasonable market strategy to me.
WWW.Records what I said is not Bogus! Shelleys Stereo is a mid-fi store that carries Mcintosh. There other lines are Yamaha, Rotel, Adcom, Rega, Arcam, etc, etc. That is mid-fi as far as I am concerned. The other store Audio Concepts also carries Mcintosh. They are also a mid-fi store that carries similar products to Shelleys. There is only one hi-end store that I know of in Southern California that carries Mcintosh. I think he carries it because he has a large Asian clientele and they seem to like Mcintosh.
I am curious what mid fi shop is selling $5000 amps? Sounds bogus to me. Taters, what are the names of these 2 stores?
And a dealer that doesn't carry McIntosh bad mouthing McIntosh? Who would have thunk it? LOL Would it have anything to do with them trying to make a sale? This seems like a no brainer. Sure McIntosh isn't for everyone, but neither are any other audio products. It's about what sounds right to you.
Taters, use your own ears with an openmind and stop listening to hi-fi salesmen. You will be much happier in the long run and have your bank account will appreciate it.
Cool, I sold my Ref 3 already. I had the 501's and c1000 with an MF A5 front end into C4's from Dynaudio. I've owned alot of stuff and I stand by my comments that Mac is OK but not special in any way.
Dave_b we all have our own opinions and you obviously don't like Mac gear but saying Mac sounds like old class B electronics and is not musical tells me that you have not heard it in a proper system. My experiences differ from yours and I do own a Arc Ref3 like you, I brought it over to friends place who has a Mac C1000 in his system and I preferred the Mac C1000.
Nothing innovative about Mac gear, nor is it tremendously musical. In fact it sounds like very goo old class B electronics..not particularly exceptional in any area, nor a total disaster in any either..just OK!
I think taking away the lights, meters and glass panels would cause Mc to lose some of it's attraction. But the quality and sound would remain. It's a package that sells and changing it could cause many to look elsewhere.
Myself it's all about music and trying to recreate the ultimate sound within my space. No piece of gear is perfect nor the best and every persons individual tastes will differ, that's why there is so much gear available. I don't care what the brand name is but I do have concerns of reliability of the product I choose.
A high end dealer where I'm located always has Mac. 1201's, 501's, pre C1000, da1000 and usually a server (300 or latest 750 as a source) in their main room with Lev., Krell, Cary and others comparing. Every time I seem to drop by the Mac gear is playing and the others are sitting not being used, why?
To me right now I have lived with the Mac. 501's and 300 Server and have to say they are marvelous products, are they the best? What is the best? Are they reliable? Yes. Do they have a pleasing look? Yes. What I can say is I just turn them on and forget about them and enjoy what they can provide which is music.
I have tried allot comparing costing two, three times the price and still have them in my system.
I just bought a pair of Pass X-600.5 to compare, almost double the price of the Mac 501's and I'm also looking at getting the Cat JL2 Sig. which again is allot more. I personally find matching gear is very important, so far I have been very successful mostly using tube pre's with solid state amps. It's like a recipe, you have to try different ingredients to ultimately get the end result you are after but in the end someone could still say you are either lacking some salt or there is too much.
This question seems to pop up every couple years. I guess Mac has been around so long that all kinds of opinions, myths, etc. have been perpetuated through the years. In this hobby a salesman or friend can say something to someone just starting out in the hobby and it be taken as an absolute and passed on.
Like many companies, Mac has had their good and not so good. As someone alluded above, Mac grew a great reputation in the yearly years of audio. But they had some lean years in the 80's and early 90's, this being my opinion. Since the late 90's I believe they have been producing some great products.
Like any hobby, you will have those that do not agree.
Anyone can look at my system and see I have Mac, but those claims made above that state I own it for status or to impress don't work for me.
Also, I have owned many other brands through the years, Levinson, BAT, Rowland, Pass, MF, I didn't just buy it because of some lore of old. But I do admit Newbee, I like the looks, including the blue meters. :)
I've got nothing against Mc's and their sound, but I do have a question. Would their sales suffer much if they no longer had all those pretty blue lights and VU meters?
I suspect that audiophiles would recognize their quality for what it is, but the folks looking for impressive and status gear to be admired by friends (not audiophiles) would pass. I like little black boxes with glowing tubes sticking out! :-)
If you've ever been to CES and compared the MAC showroom against the other audiophile rooms, you definitely get that Mercedes Benz dealership feel at the MAC rooms (more like suites).
They are not trying to impress audiophiles with that setup. They are definitely trying to sell status.
I cant say I agree with Mcintosh being a "status symbol" the way a car can be one, most non audio people have no idea what it is and what it costs, at best if they see it in your home they might confuse it with Macintosh and think it is a computer etc.
I own some Mac gear and like it alot, I also have other gear and enjoy them too. I like equipment but I listen to the music foremost. If being an "audiophile" is switching preamps every month, or listening to just a handful of cds, over and over to get the image "just right" on the gear you are trying....then count me out.
I prefer gear that lets me kick back and enjoy the music, from Aerosmith...to Zappa and lots in between, I think Mac does that very well, and yes I like the way it looks, but the sound and musicality is the first order of business,for any gear,regardless of the name.
Mcintosh is for the long term quality seeking music lover, not the insecure tail chasing audio nerd, yes Audiophiles own Mcintish, and Audiophooles take jabs at them for it.
I have owned a number of Mc peices for the past 12 or so years. I can't say I am an audiophile per se, but I do love music. I love to hear it at it's best in reproduction for the limits of MY budget. I belive that my system sounds as goos as it can given the limitations of the room. I feel that I have made an investment in good gear. The Mc gear in my systme can be topped in performance for the same money, but I feel it's durable as well. It will sound that good in ten years or more. I think you get what you pay for with McIntosh and it can be considered "high end" for it's price point. I am sad to see it in "mid-line" stores, but I lay that at the distributor's feet. They get so anxious to place an order and collect a commission that they don't hold out for higher end shops. All the years I have done business here on AudioGon I have watched that the Mc gear holds it's value. There must be a demand. All just my opinion and experience of course, no contradiction intended. 2 pennies on the counter..
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