Excellent points, well stated, wolf and jon.
Happy Listening! |
When it comes to punch I find my 3.7s are transparent. If a recording lacks punch then it sounds that way. If it has been mastered in a way that makes it sound unnaturally punchy I notice that as well. These speakers will not give punch to recordings that don't have it the way many other brands do, but they can punch very convincingly. Fantastic transients.
First order speakers aren't meant to play extremely loudly. If you want to be in the front row at an ac/dc concert this isn't the right choice. In my experience they do better with a powerful amp. I was surprised at the difference I noticed when I went from 350 watts into 4 ohms to 7 or 800. That made a big difference when it came to bass texture and clean punch. |
As someone who has "rocked" for nearly 5 decades as a working musician and live sound tech, I'm generally mystified when components are claimed to be "music style specific." "Rock" is such a wide category as to render it meaningless as a style relative to how it wends its way to your face from any speakers, and using live sound as a reference gets even weirder. If you want loudness obviously you're gonna need loud amps and drivers able to handle that (I've heard LS3/5As punch big time with a good, musical sub at a very famous "rock" engineer's house…oh yes indeed), and both of these things aren't music specific…Mahler and Julian Lage (his latest trio thing anyway) will crack your walls if your gear allows it to, and great jazz piano trios will kick it as hard as Metallica if you wish, albeit with possibly more dynamic shading. Speakers need good electronics to sound their best? Who knew? I use a modestly powered tube amp with subs and it will easily provide all the dynamic balls as required for my largish listening area, as well as clean coherence regardless of it playing Jimi or Joni or Yo Yo. Thiels mostly can reproduce whatever you ask them to as they're generally fine speakers, but simply add a sub or two for range and go for clarity in all things…maybe you'll be able to add "roll" to your rock. |
Yes, Thiel loudspeakers do ROCK! Happy Listening.
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The CS2.4 is an insane bargain with the proper amp and room. Sounds like you have great electronics. They will, can, and do ROCK. |
Thanks unsound. Yep, had a Pass X350 many years ago. Brilliant vocals, pure as anything. But too much heat for my small room. Edge almost as pure, with more refined, solid, transparent bass. (I hear the later Pass amps have improved bass, but just as hot.)
Yep, you are preaching to the converted on the importance of a preamp (and the tubes that go with it, usually).
I use my Ray Samuels B52 headphone amp as a preamp with the Edge with some nice NOS Telefunken 12AU7s and like the combo very much sound wise. I'm now using Harbeth SHL5s but thinking of moving on. |
I tried my best to love the Thiel 3.7 and I have the uptmost respect for the designer. I found the speaker - when appropriately partnered - refined, neutral and to proffer excellent resolution. But, this speaker does not rock, not even when driven with 500 watts of power. I found the bass lean and incapable of digging the depths of other products from competitors such as Wilson and Nola. |
I imagine it could. The choice of pre might be very important. Both the Thiels and the Edge do stray from absolute neutrality in a similar manner, fortunately both hardly stray at all. With such a match, I would think that the choice of pre would be more important than usual. Avoid tripling up in the same direction. FWIW, and with no disrespect to Edge, but with Thiel, I'd reccomend Krell and Pass first, then Ayre before the Edge amps. |
Does anyone think the Thiel 3.7 would mate well with an Edge NL12.1 amp (and a warm tubed preamp)? Thanks. |
I have to agree with Stingreen. B&W's seem dead and flat to my ears also in comparison to the Thiels. |
I agree with Stringreen that the Thiels need great partnering equipment to sound it's best.
A buddy of mine paired the 3.7s with either a Hovland HP200 or a Leben pre (both tubed), and a Pass Labs X350.5 - totally not bright at all. In fact, it's very natural n quite neutral
It will rock pretty good unless you compare with speakers whose features are simply to rock |
Ayre and Thiels are a good combination. Thiels seem bright to those that use inferior equipment. Actually they are very good speakers and not bright at all. ..just looking at the suggestions above....sure you should listen to all, but certainly Thiels are better than B&W 802's which are dead and flat in comparison. (just one person's opinion) |
While Thiel's might not be the last word in "punch" or anything else for that matter, I've never really thought of them lacking in that department, or any other for that matter. I think the appeal of Thiel, is the overall balance of all parameters. There are certainly some speakers that might do somewhat better in a specific area, but usually at the cost of doing things much worse in other areas. |
Said before, but worth repeating.
Jim Thiel told me, back in 1988, during the development of the CS5, that a technique that he and his brother Tom Thiel had realized, was that by dropping the impedence of the bass driver(s)...the amp would be compelled to deliver more current...acting (paraphrasing here) as an equalizer in that region. At that point, he was appalled at the lack of current that most amps, even those claiming to do so, could deliver.
The 3.7 is rated at 90db efficient...which IS effecient. What gets lost in the transfer of info here, is that the THIEL speakers like, and generally require, amps that, because of this design parameter, can deliver current.
I agree with the poster who said, look at the Wilsons for rock and roll...I've never considered the THIEL's that kind of speaker. (rock). Accurate, great imaging, detail etc...not great punch though.
Good listening,
Larry |
A local buddy of mine has a pair and he listens to mainly dynamic types of music. The 3.7's are not like most other Thiels having a LOT of topend energy or bright. I was quite impressed with them. THey do like power as most Thiels but are not terribly inefficient. |
I finally heard a pair of 3.7s at RMAF last month, driven by Rowland electronics. They sounded excellent to me. Although I recognize the pitfalls of hearing an unfamiliar speaker driven by unfamilair electronics in a hotel room, I would rate them among the better speakers I've heard. They should sound excellent driven by Ayre electronics. Regarding the "lack of bass", I think that is merely relative to other, more expensive speakers (some of which exaggerate bass, eg, Wilsons). If you look at Stereophile's in-room measurements of the 3.7, there is useful energy (-6 db) down to about 25 Hz. That's plenty good enough for all music types other than pipe organ. |
I also toyed with the idea of adding a couple of subs, possiblly Velodyne DD-10, as the Esoterics do sound good on simpler music. |
In Europe I can get the B&W 802 Diamond for about the same price as Theil and know these do rock. I have never heard GamuT speakers but they are a bit more expensive. Has anyone else heard them. I'm trying to get a short list before going to audition as it would probably be in the UK as prices are lower there.US speaker like Wilson and Vandersteen are stupid money here |
Thiel 3.7's, which I own, are speakers for those who prize transparency over other qualities. They are most definitely not bright and I think that using them with less than 200-250 wc high current amps will not allow them to sound their best. If you are asking whether they rock, it seems to be you are asking a question that indicates these speakers are not for you. In the same used price bracket I would look at Wilson sophia IIs for bass dynamics. |
I think you can do better for that kind of money. |
Zekezebra,
Why don't you try adding a sub or two, to your current system? |
The Thiel 3.7s are not bright to me. They do rock, and i have heard them with your preamp (only not MP) and amp, they were very nice together. |
The best speakers for Rock and also Classical and Jazz to my ears are the Odyssey Audio Kismet Reference Floorstanding Speakers. They are simply amazing. My rock taste goes from Metallica through Pink Floyd and everything in between. They never, ever disappoint. |
I disagree with Stanwal,
I have heard the 3.7's many times and they have never been what I would call bright by any means, they are very natural and a little polite to my ears. They can have excellent bass, but they require huge amps to get it (best I've heard so far was with the big Jeff Rowland mono's.
That said, though the bass was tight and went deep, not sure they would rock. A speaker needs to have high output and bass to really rock, I loved my Escalante Fremonts and now my Wilson Sasha's as they both are efficient and have high outputs, especially when paired with lots of power. Not sure how well the Thierls would do in this area. |
All the Thiel speakers I have heard are too bright for me; I don't know anyone who currently has them although they are made in this area. Possibly this is the sound you are looking for but I would think that there are European speakers available without paying the Transatlantic price penalty that would sound better. Gamut for example. |
