Do Streamer only devices really impact sound quality?

@soix Do a survey, how many using usb vs other inputs. I had Singxer SU6 in order to try I2S with my present dac, a couple other individuals with same dac tried I2S, returned to usb after less than satisfactory results, I didn't even bother, sold the Singxer. USB inputs are optimized in many dacs, preferred by many. Do you have proof that other inputs superior to usb on all dacs? I didn't think so.

Individuals use usb because it has best SQ vs other inputs/outputs available to them. I've observed many trying coax, AES/EBU, I2S inputs on dac, finding them inferior and returning to usb.

I don't know that the channel itself necessarily makes that much difference, to my ears. What makes a SQ difference, to me, is the various DSP options I can get (or cannot get) via one channel or another.  I need a USB connection to a Macintosh computer in order to run BAACH4Mac (a spatial audio processor). I need a USB connection to a Mac, or to a dedicated music server (with an ultraRendu in the middle), to run HQPlayer (which offers many filtering and upsampling options).  If I want multi-room playback, I cannot run either of those processes, so in that case I use ethernet (or, in the past, coax or RCA analog).  If I want to play TV sound through my HiFi, I need Toslink (because my system does not have a complete HDMI ARC path from HiFi to TV and back).

IOW, functional requirements  (as well as SQ) dictate the choice of streaming signal path, for me.  I've had at least 4 different streaming pathways in my system. These include the Bluesound Node 2i (which FWIW has one of the worst ASR measurements for a device of its kind) and also a Matrix Element X (which FWIW has one of the best ASR measurements for a device of its kind).  I haven't noticed enough SQ difference among those paths, per se, to override the functional differences.  And without going to a ~$30K T+A streamer/DAC (one  that supports  the NAA protocol), I doubt any of them delivers enough SQ improvement to justify doing without HQ Player (or BAACH4Mac).  Which I'd like to do, just to simplify the chain. But I'm skeptical that a change of streamers alone can make my soundstage sound about 50% wider, as BACCH4Mac can for some content. 

@tk21 Good points.

Another thing that needs to be pointed out. The optimal mode of transmission depends a lot on the quality of the rendering in streamer. Some streamers take great pains in optimizing usb in use of high quality clocks and power supplies on dedicated circuit boards, ,others take usb directly off relatively noisy motherboards.

Point is not to generalize about inputs/outputs, each case is different. Research both dac and streamer for optimized ports and purchase compatible components. USB has some theoretical disadvantages, but implementation has been continually improving, blathering objective statements only further confuses people.

Point is not to generalize about inputs/outputs, each case is different...blathering objective statements only further confuses people.

@sns Oh, you mean blathering like this?

USB inputs are optimized in many dacs, preferred by many.

Really? Where’s your proof? Didn’t think so. Of the hundreds of posts I’ve read on the subject yours is the ONLY one I recall where USB was preferred to i2S with the exception of Holo DAC owners where it’s well known that those DACs are optimized for USB, which seems to be much more the exception than the rule. By contrast, I’ve read many, many posts where i2S and/or AES/EBU were superior to USB or SPDIF. Maybe your DAC sucks and can’t realize the benefit of an i2S connection, or maybe you used an HDMI cable that was too long — I dunno, but I think you’re in the distinct minority on this unless you can quote others preferring USB over i2S besides, apparently, people with your specific DAC (or Holo, obviously) because I sure ain’t seen them but can cite many (including me) who’ve found i2S to be vastly superior to USB. Your move chief.

I have (and love) a BlueSound Node 130. It has a great interface, and is easy and intuitive to use. For a while I thought about upgrading, but instead went with a DDC (Denafrips Iris DDC). It isolates the signal galvanically and optically, so the signal gets sent to the DAC (Denafrips Pontus II) cleanly.....I've done a review elsewhere here.

I'll keep what I have now as I'm completely happy with it, but at some point will want to compare the quality of that pair with higher end streamer. Price will be hard to beat, $600 for the Node 130 and $500 for the Iris DDC; damn good pair for $1,100

So @ghdprentice, you’re saying that if I put a $22K dedicated streamer somewhere in my listening chain, only then will I hear the benefits of what digital can do?

I wonder how many people have compared I2S with USB in a well-controlled A/B test.  I2S still isn't all that widely available.  My streaming DAC does have an I2S input but I've never used it.  In my system, the most likely path into that IIS port would be from my Mac's, uh, USB port, via a converter box such as the Sonore ultraDigital or the Matrix X-SPDIF 2.  I've been slightly curious to see if that would produce a noticeable improvement, but don't really want to add another little converter box into an already cluttered system. Besides, the SQ already is pretty darn good.  But I do wish my music server (the SGC sonicTransporter) had an IIS output port. My DAC with IIS input can support 16-32 bit PCM, while its USB pipeline supports only 16-24 bit.  Perhaps more importantly, IIS might eliminate the annoying USB handshake problems I sometimes experience.

IIS from the Matrix X-SPDIF seems to be popular among users of the PS Audio Direct Stream DAC. I wonder if this popularity doesn't stem from limitations of PS Audio's USB implementations, or from problems with the Direct Stream's network bridge card. Point is, again, that if we're going to compare USB to IIS, I think we need to specify the context of how USB is being implemented in the system we're comparing.  

@tk21 You got it, context is everything.

@adasdad Not going to speak for ghdprentice, but my custom build streamer has been directly compared to top tier streamers such as his Aurender, Taiko Extreme, as well as to many lower tier, and it rightly belongs in that tier as both previous owners only sold after comparing and purchasing Taiko Extreme (and this prior to JCAT LPS I power it with).  The top echelon streamers pay extreme attention to noise reduction via top quality power supplies, jitter reduction via latency optimization and rendering via clocking and noise reduction of various ports. So, these are some of the theoretical reasons  for improved sound quality.  And then we have the listening portion, some may not consider that to be valid, but between what others report and what I've experienced with streamers, sound quality is extremely variable, at least on par with dacs. I can only say, try various steamers for yourself, assuming your system has sufficient resolving powers, the value of top tier streamers will be patently obvious.

I also have the ability to directly compare various protocols via drop in PCIe cards from Pink Faun and JCAT, top flight cards are available for network, coax, I2S, AES/EBU, USB. Presently using JCAT net XE to Sonore setup (FMC to USB), sound is simply sublime! I could stay here for the remainder of my life, never heard higher resolving, greater sense of ease with digital. Had to greatly upgrade my vinyl setup to keep up. Perhaps I'll compare other protocols over time, simply not motivated at the moment.

I'd only say believe those with top tier streamers, they are indeed hearing what they claim to be hearing, they are not delusional! I don't care about the damn theoreticals, audio is for our listening pleasure, not meant for some listening bot or textbook.

@sns 

I'd only say believe those with top tier streamers, they are indeed hearing what they claim to be hearing, they are not delusional! I don't care about the damn theoreticals, audio is for our listening pleasure, not meant for some listening bot or textbook.

indeed... nor for "measurements are everything" geeks

@adasdad

Very funny.

@dvdgreco When I started off on my recent complete overhaul of my hifi, I was similarly convinced that surely 1s and 0s are sacrosanct, and what is the point in buying better than a budget Cambridge streamer/DAC.

It wasn't until I tried several different USB cables between my new Zenith and Hegel H390 did I fully accept that such a thing as quality exists in the realm of digital signals.  Not only that, and this surprised me, USB cables to my ears have definite characteristics, which myself and other reviewers could agree on.  For example, the Laboga Emerald USB has a lovely warm and rich tone to it.  Why?  who knows - maybe not even the cable designer.  

In my experience, everything between the router/switch and the DAC's input affects the SQ to some extent.  Filters, regenerators, ethernet cables, USB cables, power supplies and, yes, the streamer.

Of course, the impact of each will depend on partnering equipment, and I would expect that some DACs are more sensitive to noise and jitter than others.  

Thankfully, most suppliers have a returns policy - though burn-in can be an issue, and eventually you'll just get tired and even a little neurotic by continually performing A-B comparisons and "staring" at the music, rather than just listening to it.

My advice: aim for a warmish sound, then stop and enjoy.  High levels of detail, in the short-term, is impressive, but can soon fatigue.

@lollipopguild  Amen. The one nit is high level of detail can co-exist without fatigue. This is the plateau I finally surpassed after well over 30 years of trying. Fatigue in the digital realm is caused by jitter, I'm really beginning to believe humans can detect extremely miniscule levels of jitter. Some claim we've already attained levels of jitter below threshold of hearing, don't observe any evidence for this.

Fatigue in the digital realm is caused by jitter, I’m really beginning to believe humans can detect extremely miniscule levels of jitter.

i agree but would add that electrical noise is also an important contributor to a perceived sense of harshness to the music - this is why filters and cleansers such as network acoustics, etherregen, optical modules and so on are able to make such patently audible improvements

@jjss49  No doubt!

One has to address both noise and jitter in order to get optimal streaming sound quality. In most cases one will have treated noise issue first since more easily addressed with more affordable devices. If still residual fatigue this very likely due to jitter. Jitter is more difficult to address, add on timing devices can't correct timing, latency issues within streamers/dacs. The jitter has already contaminated the signal, band aids don't close the wound, you could say the same about noise contamination.

So, the point is to do the least harm at each and every point of streaming chain. Per @lollipopguild every single component in chain is important and needs to be optimized. And I do observe those claiming to hear least fatiguing, most optimal streaming quality do have top tier components across entire streaming chain. I observe the best quality streaming comes from the least complex streaming setups using these top tier components, no band aids or add ons. The one exception to this is the single add on of the network devices such as Muon, in my case JCAT net XE. This seems to be critical component as routers certainly noisy and seem to be effective even for those using audiophile switches. By the way, adding audiophile switch was single worst addition to streaming setup ever experienced, YMMV.

There is interesting post here with individual going to second modem/ISP service to exclusively serve audio system. Modem direct ethernet connection to streamer and remote device such as laptop or tablet. Perhaps this setup negates need for network cleaner/filter devices?

I would definitely agree that the ethernet stage can be the most complex, and certainly seems to allow the most possible upgrades, warranted or not.

And I would certainly agree with @sns , that a decent switch can make things worse. I tried the Network Acoustics Muon between my Netgear Orbi router and my Zenith streamer and liked it a lot, until I experienced severe drop-outs (the NA guys suspected the router wasn’t very good at “auto-negotiating down to 100mb/s”). On their advice I added a bog-standard TP-Link switch with decent iFi power supply between the router and streamer. The drop-outs disappeard but it sounded awful - really brittle and bright.

I currently have an SotM ISOCAT7 and dCBL-CAT7u.

Lost my chain of thought here. I agree harshness, sense of hardness can be attributed to streaming chain and/or system. So, assuming one has rid themselves of this and still has fatigue. This is very likely fatigue due to jitter. I eliminated vast majority of harshness/hardness some years ago, eliminated minute residual over the years through streaming and system tuning. Still remained this slightest sense of fatigue,  like excess precision, a bit analytical presentation, very hard to put finger on although I began to hear it as timing issues over time. New custom streamer goes in, great attention to noise and latency issues. Revelatory is only word I can apply to what I'm hearing, much greater sense of ease, I simply relax into music, its like the music has slowed down and come into its own natural flow, far more like the top tier vinyl setups I've heard. There has been substantial reduction in noise floor as well, but the newfound sense of ease is the revelatory thing. I attribute this to great reduction in jitter vs past streamers.

New custom streamer goes in, great attention to noise and latency issues. Revelatory is only word I can apply to what I'm hearing, much greater sense of ease, I simply relax into music, its like the music has slowed down and come into its own natural flow, far more like the top tier vinyl setups I've heard. There has been substantial reduction in noise floor as well, but the newfound sense of ease is the revelatory thing.

@sns  Very well said as to the incredible improvements that can be achieved by upgrading to better components in the streaming chain. 

Keep an open mind and audition some models. I don’t notice any difference with them and am content to play directly off the streaming stations. Put the money into speakers.

I made the following budget minded changes to the front end after initial  setup.  I have BS Node 2i and Topping D90 with AKM chip. Took some time research and learn.  Discussions such as this are very helpful.

1.  Better power cords for Node and D90.   $200

2. Hardwired ethernet cable to streamer. $40

3. Dedicated power circuit for audio system. $500

4.  Upgraded power supply to Node.  $130

5. COAX  from streamer to DAC. $40

6. DX Engineering EMI/RF filters on ethernet. $50

7. New cable modem router combination.  It included a LPS and eliminated  an older router and wall warts.  FREE

8. Herbies firm fat dots.  $80

Cumulatively,  these changes made nice changes.  Depth of soundstage,  transients, sense of space, details revealed in bass, etc.

Then I  added a Add-Powr Symphony IO.  This improved the sound even more.

Sure, each step could have cost more and would probably improve the sound even more.  If you upgrade the above steps, the cost goes from 100s to 1000s.

I agree, don't have to spend a fortune on streaming equipment to hear differences. I've been streaming for many years, started with most basic, laptop to dac with Foobar, been incremental improvements all along the way.

On the grand scale of what things affect the sound most, streamers certainly can if done wrong but not so much when done right and that need not cost much these days.   It can be done right these days using most any platform including home computers but there is more that can go wrong there for those less computer literate. 

Ok. I am a software engineer with 15 years of experience. I have built streaming services for my day job in the past. I have pretty deep technical knowledge into how streaming services work. 
 

The idea that you might be losing bits through low quality components is simply not true. When data is transmitted from a server like Spotify’s, or even when data is being transmitted over a cable via USB or Coax, the data is sent in packets. A packet is a bunch of bits. For Spotify, a single packet is 512kb for example. In TCP, receiving device (we call them clients) sends an acknowledgement message back to the sender (we call them hosts) if and only if that packet is not corrupt.

Another poster basically mentioned that you skip the ack for streaming. That’s not true. You skip the ack for live broadcasting like Twitch, but not for streaming like Spotify or YouTube. If you lose a packet, the music just stops and waits for you to get the packet. We would rather stop the playback than just skip 512kb of a song. That would be a huge part of the song just cut out.

Transferring data over USB or Coax is not all that different. It uses a checksum to ensure the packet isn’t corrupt. I won’t go into how checksums work, that’s way too overkill for this post. Over TCP, the checksum is actually pretty weak. It has a 1 in 65536 chance to have a corrupt bit. That’s pretty high. But it’s ok usually. Even if you have a corrupt bit, it’s very very unlikely to affect anything at all. It’s unlikely that corrupted data is even a part of the audio file. It’s probably something else, like a header, or the checksum being corrupt but not the data, etc.

USB and Coax uses a different checksum. It uses Cyclic Redundancy Checksums (CRC). If a single bit is ever wrong, it will be rejected. Again, I can’t go too deep into all the details here of all the ways data over USB or Coax could become corrupt, because the chances are non-zero for a variety of reasons, but typically we are talking like, once a week or something where a single bit could somehow flip, and even then it’s unlikely to change anything about how the music plays back.

For this reason, I can say pretty confidently that your streamer is not losing data between it and a DAC. There’s basically no way. 
 

Jitter is not at the level of bits. We’re on a much higher layer when talking about Jitter. I don’t have quite as much familiarity with this to be honest, my experience has to do with transmitting data, not the actual playback, or the exchange from digital to analog.